Unpopular USMNT or US Soccer Opinions

Discussion in 'USA Men' started by GiallorossiYank, Feb 9, 2017.

  1. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    I would consider the Championship and Holland roughly lateral to MLS. There is a short list of actually superior leagues.

    Mexico could be a superior league for our players but you have the safety and payment issues. I am curious how many of the Tijuana Americans live in SD, like Whitecaps who live in Point Roberts. If Mexico was a safe place where paychecks arrived on time that would create a new dynamic like in the 80s and 90s.

    I also think that snobs often like to talk up the league involved without regard to whether said player actually plays.

    Or how they have looked on prior NT caps. Morales, to me, did not stand out in our jersey. Kind of like Nova who got omitted.

    There is a very short list of players in elite leagues playing regularly and looking good doing it. This by its nature triggers a more complex process of separating wheat from chaff when some see playing time and some not, some are in better leagues or not, etc.
     
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  2. a_new_fan

    a_new_fan BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jul 6, 2006
    you totally missed my point I was talking about the sabbi/amon/galls/greens of the world.

    however holmes and robinson do play in a bad league and nova plays in a brutally top heavy league. Morales just isn't good enough and johnson is old and breaking down(and has been for the last four years) the idea they could rely on him is crazy.
     
  3. italiancbr

    italiancbr Member

    Apr 15, 2007
    The problem I have with discussing MLS is that the issue inevitably turns into a false dilemma: Without MLS, soccer would seemingly cease to exist in the U.S. Therefore, an honest evaluation of the league can't really happen when such a fallacy is used. MLS was close to folding in 2001, and a whole new discussion could be devoted to how things would've played out if it did.
     
  4. a_new_fan

    a_new_fan BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jul 6, 2006
    nobody is saying it would cease to exist; the point is it would be hurt by the lack of existence.
     
  5. Mahtzo1

    Mahtzo1 Member+

    Jan 15, 2007
    So Cal
    I can't speak for others but I never felt that way. Soccer was growing before MLS (in fact that is the one and only reason that MLS was founded...the increasing footprint of soccer in every facet of our sports community). Soccer would still be growing if MLS wasn't here. The question is how far along would it be, and are we better off with it or without. I am firmly in the postion that we are better off with MLS. I am not alone in that position, but I also know there are others that believe we would be better off without. I can't understand that line of thinking and many of them can't understand my line of thinking...so there we are.
     
  6. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    #1106 juvechelsea, May 25, 2019
    Last edited: May 25, 2019
    Based on that U20 performance I just watched ("DVR delayed") we are going Soft. Throwing out desperate professional fouls and jockeying, where are the physical tackles? S. O. F. T.

    There is a play at 88' or so that epitomizes the difference. Ukrainian mid makes a poor giveaway to the US defense. Runs right to the defender, slide tackles the heck out of him, wins the ball right back, earns an immediate foul. We are now apparently above that. We instead hustle in position like a second rate club team.

    Telling moment: Maurice Edu is rhapsodizing about the professionalization of the U20 team as the first Ukrainian goal goes in. Ran out the wrong player in the 9 slot and looked out of sync but let's make fun of college teams that would at least show up from a lengthy pre-tournament camp drilled, organized, and not slapping together the lineup. Not unlike the Ukrainians.

    To be fair, while the former can be fixed the latter is probably the plight of the mature soccer nation.

    To be harsh, there are teams like Germany and Italy that play hard both ways, that don't see hard tackling as incompatible with skilled offense. The pendulum has swung too far and I look forward to rediscovering things like "target forwards" or "getting stuck in." Watch Wayne Rooney, these things are reconcilable with pretty the other way.
     
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  7. Mahtzo1

    Mahtzo1 Member+

    Jan 15, 2007
    So Cal
    Interesting take. Don't really know that one U20 game can be used to project that conclusion but I especially noticed the Ukrainian team looked more committed in 50/50 situations while we often backed out. If it is true that we are going soft, it is ironic to some degree, that most (slight majority) of the players on the field yesterday were based in Europe (7 out of 11 starters and 8 out of 14 that got in the game). I wasn't really paying attention to which of the players were backing out of challenges more than others.
     
  8. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    It also seems to be similarly fashionable to talk up "not panicking and changing the way we play" when chasing a result. Sorry, but just droning through 90 minutes doing the same thing over and over as TnT or Ukraine leads you to the whistle is just lazy. 4-5 minutes extra time and we knock 2 balls in the box? What is this sh*t? At a certain point it reeks of arrogant, unearned self-belief. The scoreboard suggests that simply showing up and being our wanna-be-technician selves for 90 isn't actually working.......
     
  9. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    #1109 juvechelsea, May 25, 2019
    Last edited: May 25, 2019
    I can't list many specific games other than perhaps Costa Rica away which was the first US team in recent memory to actually quit on the field.

    I do think that plays like Adams' hard tackle in a late 2018 game, or Lima's open-field tackle on an island this year, seem to almost stand out for them being unusual. And Lima's reward was not playing.

    My general impression of last year's games under Sarachan was we would get numbers back behind the ball but then not actually ball-win. Massive out-possession as a result.

    In another game Ukraine U20 picks up more cards and maybe a red from a stricter referee. But I saw that game as a combination of the lack of an offensive central focal point at 9, and softness in the battles. On our one goal you saw how the offense looks different when we can combine into the middle. But Weah got involved in that from wide. And then I thought we just got outmuscled by a more organized team. I thought our goal was elegant and well executed but if we do our thing once their two goals weren't exactly ugly either.
     
  10. a_new_fan

    a_new_fan BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jul 6, 2006
    with var you have to be careful with the hard tackles look at the france/sa match. the era of hard and late tackles is over.
     
  11. Mahtzo1

    Mahtzo1 Member+

    Jan 15, 2007
    So Cal
    I think that not being able to match their physicality was deinitely a factor. I think another thing that hurt was that Pomykal wasn't involved enough. He was moved out wide, up top but he needs to be more of a central focal point of our build up and attack.
     
  12. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    I would consider that a stupid opinion. I think ranking leagues is stupid.

    I would consider the Championship a much more competitive league and games are much harder fought.

    I would consider the Eridivisie a much better league at developing players.

    The quality of MLS is significantly driven by the top 3 to 6 players on each team. There are very few Americans in MLS that would make it in the Champioship or the Eridivisie.
     
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  13. a_new_fan

    a_new_fan BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jul 6, 2006
    you are confusing competitive with talented
     
  14. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    I dont think so. I thought competitive was a less controversial statement, but sure, I think the players in the Championship are more talented than those of MLS.

    If you took the MLS players and constructed teams without all cap rules, there would likely be higher salaried teams that would be better than the top teams in the Championship and lower salaried teams that would get crushed. Again, the highly paid foreign MLS players hide the poor quality of the lesser players.
     
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  15. a_new_fan

    a_new_fan BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jul 6, 2006
    yeah so the way it doesn't work is because a team has a high/lower salary means the team is better or the club would pay more/less. none of that has to do with the original question.

    the answer to that question is the championship isn't good its similar to mls probably but its not clearly better.

    the championship is a few talent levels down from the premier league don't get confused by them being next to each other in the ladder. I mean of the three teams favored to go down next year from the premier league atleast two will be the just promoted teams despite having a bunch of new 'premier league level' players in the squad.
     
  16. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    Unsurprisingly, I cant follow what you are saying.

    Let me state again. I dont try simplistically compare two very complicated things such as different soccer leagues.

    I have simpy stated that the leagues are better at developing players, providing a competitive environment, and the bottom players of those leagues are much more talented than bottom players in MLS.
     
  17. a_new_fan

    a_new_fan BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jul 6, 2006
    the championship is a hit/miss league when it comes to developing players and its mostly players on loan who are young and talented. Competitive isn't enough there has to be talent also. The bottom players are not more talented they are garbage just like bottom level mls players. Did you watch the league one playoff games this am? two teams playing to move up(and gooch couldn't even get a minute is how far he has fallen) to the championship. the play was garbage at best it was bad and those are some of the 'best' teams from league one who will be in the championship next season. cinci/bolton would be an unwatchable mess the lack of talent would be obvious. If you are garbage you are garbage there is no such things as good or 'better' garbage.
     
  18. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    Yedlin (Newcastle)
    Pulisic (CFC)

    Cameron (Stoke)
    CCV (Swansea)
    delaTorre (Fulham, though really youth, to be fair)
    Holmes (Derby)
    Lichaj (Hull)
    Miazga (Reading)
    Phillips (QPR)
    Ream (Fulham)

    Gooch (League One)
    Kelman (League One)
    K. Scott (Chelsea system)

    And this is not accounting for how the combination of salaries/transfer fees and work permits serve to structurally narrow the list. Work permits funnel the list towards existing EU passport holders and players already on the NT. There is also a more recent dynamic where we are going from cheap add to being able to demand salaries and transfer fees. If you think about that, the combination of having to be NT plus being increasingly able to demand compensation narrows the field of interested teams. You have to be better than x level to make the NT at which point you can demand salary and fees that rule out a substantial portion of England. And then at the top the elite teams still have a snob thing about Americans not born there.
     
  19. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    And, dude, I said roughly lateral. I didn't say, "well, I did a statistical analysis and the weighted comparison of x league to y league is described by the coefficient......" Due to the work permit rules the sort of player able to go to England generally already has something going for them. That may be intellectually cheating a little bit but I think most good MLS are relegation EPL or Championship type players. And at the top end we now have EPL type talent in many of the DP slots.

    Re Holland one has to bear in mind that x% of the teams there play a "no cares" 433 where defense is optional that a MLS team would tear apart.

    And my point on this wasn't really getting into this abstract discussion as arguing that the list of players whose combination of playing situation and actual performance sets them apart -- and makes NT selection easy -- is very few. The playing situations of the players actually playing (as opposed to sitting) do not tend to be dramatically better or different than MLS which results in a complicated task of sorting out which players are better for the NT than the next guy in the next country.

    Someone arguing how do you compare leagues ought to get that response easily.

    I do believe that a player from a top team in a top league who plays a lot is likely to be better but I think there are so few (Pulisic and Adams) that heuristic is rarely useful. OK, that's 2 guys out of 23. Figure out the rest. You quickly end up back in the muck of how to compare a forward sitting in B.1 with a forward scoring 20+ in Holland with a forward scoring 10-15 in MLS. That is just the reality of a team that is getting some players in elite leagues but is mostly staffed at the heavier part of the bell curve.

    I think this is growth from the point when only our best youth and proven NT stars went abroad. But at that point the stingy approach to our players tended to convey a good housekeeping seal of approval. The Kenny Coopers who had a foothold at big clubs but were mediocre were rare. We can now fill pages of Yanks Abroad players plus dual nationals. OK, which ones can ball? It's a more serious task of scouting and selecting.
     
  20. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    The big differences between England and the US, to me, are the depth of talent, the compensation and how many teams and players deep it can be offered, and the academies feeding the PL teams.

    I think some of the Championship, low EPL, high end SPL, Scandinavia teams can (or at least used to be able to) offer more money for the same talent level. So an agent would obviously want to send a player there. You don't have to raise your game any to be worth more money just playing solid.

    But over time I also see this as constraining because we are ever more in demand and valuable at which point we can demand more of these teams and become less interesting cheap options. Hence the many SPL loans that don't bear fruit. They think we are worthy and we generally play and produce. But they don't want to pay what we're worth. That is the shift since Beasley and Boca and Edu is we're starting to price out. Which is why I think Germany is becoming more popular. No work permits, less snobbery. But if you pick wrong or have a dry spell they will sit you like Wood, because the level is high.
     
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  21. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    I was a hard tackling defender who picked up 2 reds ever on up through college and men's league, which were for my mouth instead. To me what attackers often see as changing the nature of the game, is a matter of technique and self control. To me it's easy, tackle ball, not man, and if you're going to tackle man, do a professional "hooking" of the leg and don't go in to break it. Do not go in studs up, do not tackle into the leg.

    I routinely see plays these days in EPL or B.1 with two guys sliding into tackles, which is more intense than I ever liked to do, and they don't seem in fear of VAR. I have seen players tossed by refs or VAR for challenges but it's 90%+ of the time for studs up into the leg, or a second yellow.

    I think peak tackling silliness was c. 2006 when they were handing out reds in Germany for nothing. I do think VAR is complicating the situation but that's really getting into not so much changing the rules as carving into your margin of getting away with what should have been a red. In which case, why were you doing it.

    Ukraine is tackling like I wish we would, 2-0-0 leading the group, 1 GA so far, and while they have accumulated 6 yellows, we got 2 playing them (2 more against Nigeria), and Qatar picked up a red. So it's not like we are doing so much better on cards for being less tackle happy. I also feel like on at least the first Ukraine goal our player (Dest) gets caught wrong side of the ball/goal and then gives up.
     
  22. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    "Why is Will Trapp treated like a kid?" I did some U20 roster reviewing for the past several world cups and realized he was on the 2013 team. He is 26. He will be 29 next World Cup. 33 the next one after that if he was even still playing and healthy. Is there a reason he has been treated as the functional equivalent of the prospects coming in when his age relative to senior caps (15) should instead raise questions?

    I mean, for that age and those caps the NT analogues are like Garza and Lichaj. Borderline "passed you by." The much maligned Mixx is only 2 years older and has 38 caps and 6 goals.

    And it's not like he's earned it by performance. He is generally anonymous, no goals, and only makes an occasional heady play worthy of his rep. He was one of the victimized on the Italy winner last year. Why is he then retained with the kids like an upside player, as opposed to shunned as a veteran who has failed to earn in?

    It's kind of like he still has some traction from 2013 leadership despite how that U20 team did and despite how he actually looks at the international senior level. He has been brought in with the prospects like a kid. Despite the fact he couldn't break into the post Jones and Beckerman team he should have been -- by rep -- the heir apparent to. I mean, that "hole" should have been him, Nagbe, etc. If they failed to seize the day and the team suffered, how is that not a black mark? There is a reason the trendy "next up" drop down to U20s and Olympic age people when it should have refreshed at veteran age. At 26 why isn't he kind of edging towards wash-out?

    I say this because I had identified him as one of the questionable selections by GB and then it occurs to me this might be more akin to perseverating on Omar than a questionable prospect decision.
     
  23. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    Second question, the US for the past 3 cycles of U20 has been The Superior Regional Team at the U20 world cup. At this tournament Honduras just set a single game goals allowed record, Mexico is also gone, Panama is precarious with a game left.

    Why is that consistency of performances not translating across to the senior team? I could get if we traded off with Mexico or CR. But every tournament since 2013 we last the longest or tie for the deepest run.

    I mean, isn't it odd to do this and then it feels like Mexico somehow has the better young senior level players to elevate? Do they graduate them out of YNT? Are we actually getting by too much on team ethos? Are we wasting U20 talent? Trying to sort out how this juggernaut at U20 doesn't build into having the better senior team.
     
  24. FanOfFutbol

    FanOfFutbol Member+

    May 4, 2002
    Performance at youth levels have never been any kind of indicator of performance at the senior level or team like Nigera and such would be dominating the World Cup.

    As to why we do not get good transition to the senior team goes: I think it is due to the lack of good coaching and good competitive play in our overall system. We just still do not have the structure to even have a chance of truly developing a large part of our talent. It does not take long for the MLS to change good players into thugs.
     
  25. FormerNo10

    FormerNo10 Member

    RP Leipzig
    United States
    Dec 13, 2018
    Costa Rica
    Trapp is from the Crew, remember? Along with Zardes, they're 2 players, along with a few others, that are obvious cannot-do-no-wrong 3G favorite's.

    Anything that keep Adams from shining in the #6 spot is supported and promoted by the USSF/SUMA. Once Adams plays 1 game there it will be sayonara for MB/WT. Some will argue that they can still add value as backups. I would agree with that as long as there is real competition from the up-and-comer's and in-form players.
     

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