Demonstrates, no. Suggests, maybe. And if you read, I wasn't supporting one keeper vs. the other. I always referred to them both. Your 'interpretation' of my supporting them as being 'Yank to Yank' is false. If I told you my mother was born in Belfast, that I learned my football there on summer holidays and still make regular pligrimages to that area, would that change your opinion? My reasons are two-fold. First, if a keeper makes a mistake, it's usually fatal. Just ask Carroll about Crespo's goal. That means that they have to be 'more perfect' than a field player or they'll be dragged across the coals at the drop of a hat. And I saw Buffon make very close to the same gaff this year. But then, I rarely have seen a midfielder getting benched for giving up the ball in midfield, which allows a counter, which leads to a goal. But isn't he just as culpable? The second reason is my son's a keeper. The ethos on his team is that if a goal is scored, the team asks themselves what they could do to have prevented the situation AS A TEAM. Even at 14, they know the odds are that if they attakcked the ball better defensively, the keeper wouldn't have been put into that situation. The keeper relies on the field players just as much as the field players rely on the keepers. Look, you will never convince me of your view, and I will never convince you of mine. Let's just agree to disagree and move on. Friends?
Alan V: I have no problem agreeing to disagree but I think that you were confused in your response to my last post. I don't know what "Yank to Yank" and Belfast have to do with my post. My point is simply this: United is better off with VDS as a keeper then with Howard. I believe the team will be more confident in front of VDS this season. Again, we can agree to disagree but I'm not certain what your viewpoint is. Friends.
I obviously misinterpreted your post. I presumed you had misinterpreted my support of the Utd goalkeepers as support of Howard only. There are those out here that think he's getting the short end. I was trying to explain that was incorrect and why. The connection to Belfast is that Carroll is from N.Ireland, so I have vicarious connection there as well. As for statistics, they can be 1) decieving and 2) the quoter can use only that part of them that supports their opinion (not suggesting you did). There was even a book used in colleges and universities back 30 years ago called "How to Lie With Statistics." The decieving part, is that unless looked at side-by side with subjective data, they can be misleading. During last season, Howard started in goal and wasn't replaced until the Liverpool game in September. Up until that time, Utd scored 12 goals in 8 games. That's 1.5/game. From that point on, he was relegated to Carling Cup and FA Cup ties until after Carroll's Milan howler. Most of where the .58 goals/game comes in is during the Carling Cup and FA cup matches. Utd played a number of games against lower teams (Exeter is a good example) where they sat back and defended, applying no pressure and being content to absorb averything thrown at them. The first Exeter game was a 0-0 draw, the second Utd won 2-0. So does goals/game provide a valid arguement for the team not being confident enough to go forward? In this case, I don't believe so. What I saw on the games I watched, Carroll and Howard in goal, was Neville, Heinze and Keane getting forward for overlaps and giving opponents a problem to solve. The telling statisic, in this matter, is Utd's shots to goals ratio. They led the league with 615 shots taken, 84 more than Chelsea, but converted 14 fewer. Even with VDS in goal, if they perform the same way, they will finish the same way.
Lies, damned lies, and statistics, as it goes. I think you're right, that had much more to do with our lack of scoring. Like I said, while I think the lack of confidence in the keeper attributed to our scoring issues, it was a very small problem compared to our shot selection. And our shot selection was poor because we lacked the creativity in the midfield to create better chances, as well as the personnel up front for most of the year who could do the best job of positioning (read: Ruud and Saha). Those issues more than anything else caused our problems in finding the back of the net. The hope is that a stronger, younger midfield (Park... Ballack maybe) as well as a less injury-riddled campaign will solve it.
Alan V: The statistics I used were only from the EPL and I apologize for not mentioning that in my post. As for the rest, no harm done. United is better off with VDS in goal than with Howard, that's my opinion. I don't think the move wins them the league, just moves them closer. Who cares what country the players are from as long as they produce?
Interesting debate... I'd also throw in that Howard was our keeper when we had Alan Smith up front for the most part before the team really got going. Did we get going as a result of Carroll? Hell no! Did he help? Perhaps... I think the team was more confident w/ Carroll than it was w/ Howard - but in the end, our GK's at the most cost us 6pts based soley on mistakes/blunders/goals that might have been saved by another keeper... had we Schmeichel in the goal we would still have lost the league (well, maybe that's stretching it the Great Dane was a damned wall) what we need to improve in is as mentioned our shot selection, creativity and attack in general. The defence could use some organizing and that's where VDS is crucial, hopefully he can teach Howard how to be a leader from the back, how to avoid crashing into defenders, how to have more confidence claiming crosses and how to position his wall and himself better.
I don't think that's stretching it, actually - and I agree with your points about our attack. If you look at all the games in which we failed to score, it becomes evident that our failure in the league wasn't largely due to our keeper problems (like you said, only around 6 points). Even if we had kept clean sheets, we still wouldn't have won...goals win games, not clean sheets. Someone posted an argument above about the team being more confident going forward when there's a better keeper in the net, but I don't think that's necessarily the case. Despite having dodgy keepers in our net, we still managed to have the most attempts on goal of any team, but had the lowest conversion rate. Saying that this was because of our keepers would be stretching it. Of course having Van der Sar in the squad might improve our fortunes next season, as his constant communication will give better organization to our backline...but in the end a lot of our chances of success next season rests on the form of Ruud, Rooney and Saha upfront, as well as our other attacking players.
I agree with what you say above to an extent... I belive the team does feel more confident venturing forward with a more competant keeper, however that's not enough to boost our attack. I think perhaps as many of a third of our attempts on goal came in the last 20mins of a game and came from distance so that means we're desperate and have thrown caution to the wind, but generally a solid keeper wont make our attack THAT much better, it will help just a bit, but not much. All in all though and I know I might take some flak for this. I dont think we were that far off last season. When on form we held pace w/ Chelsea for more a long time, if we dont have injuries to Scholes, Rooney and Ruud at the beginning of the year like we did last year we should have more than enough to dominate the minnows, especially now that we'll have one of Giggs, Ronaldo or Park always fresh and ready to come off the bench as well as Richardson and Fletcher was considerably better at the end of the season than he was at the start of last season so there's that as well. If we can add one more player as well, I see no reason for us not to be strong enough to mount a serious challenge for the title - having keepers NOT cost you points will be a nice thing, but if VDS could become a match winner for us too - then we might really be in for a great season.
The signing of VDS does not, in itself, make United a better goal-scoring team. However, as I have previously stated, United scored more goals per game with Carroll in goal. For instance, United had a stretch in Jan/Feb in which they scored 11 goals in 4 games. Howard took over and they scored 3 goals in the next 6 games. I am not stating that there were not other factors. Instead, I am saying that the statistics are significant enough to require explanation. As for the number of attempts on goal for United, I believe, from the games that I watched, that the statistic is misleading. In many games, United failed to create good chances, instead relying on speculative shots from outside the box. I suspect that if someone had tracked "quality" chances then United would have lagged behind a number of teams. I believe that United will feel more confident playing in front of VDS than Howard. I believe that Ruud will be sharper, Rooney and Ronaldo will be better and that Park will have a positive impact. For these reasons, I believe that United will score more goals this season than last season.
Like whether they played stingy defenses or not. A factor here is impatience. The fact that they got the ball up front far enough to take that speculative shot has nothing to do with what's going on behind them. Patience would allow them to work the ball more, as would having a striker like Ruud to give the ball to. I don't disagree that VDS will help. He's got far more experience back there and that will help. He's been playing consistantly and knows what he can and can't do. Howard's on the back foot, but remember, he came into the team and moved right to the top. The talent is there and he may surprise everybody. Ruud up top will be the biggest factor. If he can get a run, the threat of his scoring will open up additional opportunities for the rest of the offense as defenses will collapse on him.
Manchester United have completed the signing of Stoke City goalkeeper Ben Foster. Link apparantly the deal could go to 3M, its appparantly 1M upfront too.
Usually, the 3 mil figure is only attainable if he makes a certain number of appearances for the first team or some other criteria is met. Since we're loaning him out (at least, that's what's been indicated), I don't see spending a mil or two for good prospects as a bad thing.
Correct, this article states that we paid 1 mil up front with more to be paid if he breaks into the first team and makes honours. http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/teams/s/stoke_city/4689237.stm
I agree in principle, but this guy never played in Stoke's first team - I just figure since there's no demand for him, 1M up front is good enough, I understand that the other 2M is in incentives but at the same time, its Stoke City.... 1M is big chunk of change for them.
It's either a very shrewd buy, bad business, or a slight gamble. Considering we don't have to pay the full 3 unless he comes good, I'm happy.
I agree. If he turns into the first team keeper then £3MM will seem like nothing. If he never pans out then its $1MM.
Sounds almost like Bellion's case...promising young 20-something year old who wasn't a regular for the first team, but somehow Fergie and his scouts saw a lot of upside in him.
http://soccernet.espn.go.com/headlinenews?id=337330&cc=5901 The new kid expects to be out on loan, not sure if he is happy or sad about it though. This is probably the best move for the club. a) new guy gets more first-team experiance, with a ColaShip club probably but maybe a lower EPL team?. b) Howard gets a chance to take control of his own future by possibly beating Van T O Man out on the first position if he is able to. c) We get the young gun back with more experiance in the future, which further establishes our chances of gaining a good keeper after VTOM.
I don't see why he should be sad about it at all. He was doing the same thing for Stoke, and he'll continue doing the same thing (i.e. spending time on loan at other clubs). Only difference is that now he is officially a Manchester United player and he'll be able to afford an extra packet of chips each week.
True, just couldn't really tell in the text. Sorta sounded kinda dissappointed, maybe just my interpreting though.
sadly the pressure is just too much. if we sell/loan him in the next season he'll do well. we just can't afford the growing pains. simple as that. had high hopes for him but he's just too hot-and-cold. brilliant reactions and saves to flopping around and losing concentration.