Ukraine vs Russia III

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by argentine soccer fan, May 16, 2023.

  1. deejay

    deejay Member+

    Feb 14, 2000
    Tarpon Springs, FL
    Club:
    Jorge Wilstermann
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    Syrians are using the Ukraine drone playbook. Probably trained by Ukrainians. Great way to open a third front for Russia.
     
  2. spejic

    spejic Cautionary example

    Mar 1, 1999
    San Rafael, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    I think Ukraine is slowly shifting to a more advanced, more capable drone model that modern militaries will also be shifting towards. An expensive thing that hits is cheaper in the long run than an inexpensive thing that misses a lot. But cheap FPV drones will be the model for insurgent armies from now on. Or at least until AI drones become cheap and ubiquitous. Which shouldn't be too long.
     
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  3. ShayG

    ShayG Member+

    Celtic
    United States
    Aug 9, 2021
    Damn. I mean, I’m sure you’re right. But, damn.
     
  4. spejic

    spejic Cautionary example

    Mar 1, 1999
    San Rafael, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
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  5. Umar

    Umar Member+

    Sep 13, 2005
    One step ahead
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Nat'l Team:
    Palestine
    They have support from Turkey and Turkey are great at drones. See eg Azerbaijan re Nagorno Karabakh in 2020.
     
  6. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    latest WOTR podcast on drones is awesome on this subject. Ukraine drone production is insane but they face an attritional war so tactics might not map so well to the kind of war western countries would fight.
     
  7. The Irish Rover

    The Irish Rover Member+

    Aug 1, 2010
    Dublin
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
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    Ireland Republic
    #10732 The Irish Rover, Dec 4, 2024
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2024
    Very significant if it happens. Without the Tartus port the AN-12s can't reach Africa unless a 3rd country agrees to refueling rights and cargo loading. It's just too far.

    Russia will be, shall we say, "Out of Africa"

    [​IMG]

    Eisenhower's dictum was "amateurs talk strategy. Professionals talk logistics." Putler is going to find that out soon enough
     
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  8. The Irish Rover

    The Irish Rover Member+

    Aug 1, 2010
    Dublin
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Ireland Republic
    #10733 The Irish Rover, Dec 4, 2024
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2024
    Turkey used to be the world leader at drones and its long-range stuff is still competitive, especially surveillance drones, but the Nagorno-Karabagh war was a long time ago technologically. Ukrainians are now far ahead on combat applications. Bayraktar stuff is big, expensive and something of a closed ecosystem.

    The Syrians are using modified FPV drones in their attacks. Bayraktar offers limited expertise in that area and isn't responsive enough.

    It's close ties to the Turkish state would also make them unsuitable for MİT's and Erdogan's purposes: no plausible deniability.
     
  9. The Irish Rover

    The Irish Rover Member+

    Aug 1, 2010
    Dublin
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Ireland Republic
    They'll debut by next summer I believe.

    Suitable revenge for this
    [​IMG]
     
  10. The Irish Rover

    The Irish Rover Member+

    Aug 1, 2010
    Dublin
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
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    Sorry to be pedantic but to save @American Brummie from tearing his (remaining??) hair out, no, being "allowed to run parts of the state in return for blind loyalty" is not oligarchy.

    Oligarchy is rule by the few, with an elite making the key decisions. Over time, decision-making is delegated to a president/prime minister, etc. who remains their agent. If enough of them become unhappy enough, he modifies his approach or he has problems.

    In Russia, it's the so-called oligarchs that have problems and modify their approach. That's what qualifies it as an autocracy.

    Which is why people have taken to calling the likes of Abramovich "wallets". In this context, it translates very well as "bagmen".
     
  11. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    I don't disagree it is a dictatorship. But it is correct that Putin utilises a delegated oligarchy to run key parts of the economy. And agreed these Oligarchs have no meaningful power in an upwards direction - a significant misunderstanding amongst many commentators. They are gangsters (or bagmen as you call them) who pledge loyalty to the mob boss. Though we did see what can happen when one of them went off the rails having acquired significant military power to himself.

    Bill Browder is interesting on this topic. In his view, everything 'owned' by the oligarchs is only at Putin's pleasure. This is why a US oligarchy will be a significant downgrade for Musk and co - they will have actually less security than they currently enjoy - I guess they imagine the extra power they believe they will gain is worth it.
     
  12. song219

    song219 BigSoccer Supporter

    Apr 5, 2004
    La Norte
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    Vanuatu
    Among the oligarchs it will be a version of the normal people voting for the Leopards Eating Faces party. Each oligarch will believe that the state (Trump) may go after an oligarch but it won't be them.
     
  13. Yoshou

    Yoshou Fan of the CCL Champ

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Eh. Don't forget that South Korea was a dictatorship well into the 80s.
     
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  14. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    On the topic of drones i read a lot of interesting stuff lately

    Western militaries are now quite far behind the innovation curve that Ukraine has followed. We just don't have the experience or indeed many of these platforms at scale - think the experienced people you need for one single drone platoon, company, battalion etc ...

    But also it's not clear what platforms are needed. e.g the Ukraine drone war has already seen a number of phases and obsolescence of platforms that simply can't survive or were not fit for purpose. But also with such a giant frontage and with infantry and arty shortages in an attritional war, there has been huge focus on FPV and short range bombers that might not be much use in more mobile warfare.
     
  15. diablodelsol

    diablodelsol Member+

    Jan 10, 2001
    New Jersey
    I read an article about the rise of Putin a while back. Perhaps someone linked it here. I have no idea if it was a reputable source or just some random posting stuff on the internet at this point. But The general message was much like you state here…in that Russia is not an oligarchy…it is a Mafia State…and Putin is the boss.

    It went on to describe how Putin set this up. Early on his presidency he met with the various oligarchs who had hoovered up the resources of the Soviet Union when it collapsed. They all assumed this was going to be normal meeting with a normal corrupt politician where they’d have to kick up some bribes and be done with it. Putin…in essence…told them he wanted half. When they said half to the state? Are you kidding us? That’s when they learned they weren’t dealing with a typical corrupt politician. They were dealing with a cold blooded gangster with the power of the state behind him. The half was to Putin personally…and if they don’t cooperate…this wouldn’t be some stupid mafia war between gangsters. This would be the Russian state against you personally. He owns them. He is their power.

    Go ahead…surround yourself with a thousand henchmen in your dacha and go against me. I won’t be coming to arrest you…I will be carpet bombing your dacha with air strikes. Wanna flee? Better not take a plane as ill SAM’s are loaded. Wanna go into hiding while losing all your assets? Well find you anywhere.

    If you’ll recall…shortly before the invasion…Putin set up a made for tv forum where all of the “oligarchs” were brought into a room and were forced to publicly support Putin’s stance on Ukraine. This was a power play and a reminder by Putin. I own you. You’re in this with me whether you like it or not…and dissent means a rapid descent out of a window with a sudden stop at the end.
     
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  16. goliath74

    goliath74 Member

    May 24, 2006
    Hollywood, FL, United States
    Club:
    FC Dynamo Kyiv
    Nat'l Team:
    Ukraine
    I thought it was government figures, not the out and out oligarchs. The guy who was shaking at the podium was actually the chief of one of the intelligence agencies.
     
  17. deejay

    deejay Member+

    Feb 14, 2000
    Tarpon Springs, FL
    Club:
    Jorge Wilstermann
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
  18. deejay

    deejay Member+

    Feb 14, 2000
    Tarpon Springs, FL
    Club:
    Jorge Wilstermann
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    I assume that they are using the tactics that proved successful in Kursk.
     
  19. deejay

    deejay Member+

    Feb 14, 2000
    Tarpon Springs, FL
    Club:
    Jorge Wilstermann
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
  20. Yoshou

    Yoshou Fan of the CCL Champ

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    "Terrorist groups". Heh. I guess we can confirm the pictured account is pro-Russian.

    If Ukraine helped any rebel groups, it would only be the Turkish aligned groups. Ukraine would never help the Kurdish groups as that would piss off Turkey and their European and US allies would be pissed off if they helped the Jihadis.
     
  21. deejay

    deejay Member+

    Feb 14, 2000
    Tarpon Springs, FL
    Club:
    Jorge Wilstermann
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    Good catch. Yes, that is possible. I also wonder about training the ISIS faction of the rebels.
     
  22. Yoshou

    Yoshou Fan of the CCL Champ

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    ISIS would fall under the Jihadi group that would piss off Ukraine's European and US allies.
     
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  23. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    I can highly recommend Browder's books on Putin's corrupt structures and how they are used internationally.

    I am also working through Putin's People by Catherine Belton.

    Tim Snyder wrote last week that he sees parallels between the US and 90s Russia, in that you have an elderly president surrounded by corrupt billionaires - I think at last count Trump has installed 8 in his new admin. So the question is what structure will result - e.g will the Oligarchs dominate the doddery old clown, or will some ruthless tyrant ascend to the throne?

    Trump has obviously realised he needs to monopolise federal police agencies and the military but it's far from certain who will ultimately control them. i would not be surprised to see a military coup down the track
     
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  24. spejic

    spejic Cautionary example

    Mar 1, 1999
    San Rafael, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    It looks like European, especially German, companies will developing the future of drone warfare. Or at least the high-end of it. They seem very willing to use Ukraine as a place to experiment, both with drones and counter-drone systems. Ukraine themselves are and will be for the foreseeable future the leaders in low-end of drone production.
     
  25. spejic

    spejic Cautionary example

    Mar 1, 1999
    San Rafael, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
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