Ukraine vs Russia III

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by argentine soccer fan, May 16, 2023.

  1. rslfanboy

    rslfanboy Member+

    Jul 24, 2007
    Section 26
    We lost a lot of Ukranian lives due to the 6month delay in funding.
     
  2. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    Yeah that wasn't part of the plan
     
  3. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I have no clue. Military tactics and strategy and hardware completely bores me. I’m too ignorant to have a meaningful opinion about specifics. But I do read the news and I have seen the crawling escalation. I don’t know of any cases where one set of allies in a conflict chooses rapid escalation.
     
  4. rslfanboy

    rslfanboy Member+

    Jul 24, 2007
    Section 26
    It is difficult where a treaty authorizing and compelling military aid does not exist. You can bet that if Russia attacked Poland, then you would have seen exactly that kind of reaction.

    With Ukraine, the govt really was shaky, corrupt, filled with Russian proxies, etc… Ukraine is still weeding out high level corruption and Russian agents in govt. It wasn’t clear that Ukraine would rally and defend itself as well as it did. I think the initial pause was likely correct, but when it became clear that Ukraine was going to survive the first Russian onslaught, we should have ramped up manufacture of quality shells & artillery immediately.
     
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  5. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    The thing is, if you are Poland (and indeed Germany and others) you can't afford for Russia to defeat Ukraine, and then park a gigantic army on the Polish border.

    So it makes most sense to escalate to de-escalate

    The problem with that, is the enemy might not be rational
     
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  6. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    Europe is realising this. Like why keep a whole lot of munitions and kit on the sidelines when it's very purpose is to blow up Russia stuff - you might as well send it to Ukraine and blow up russian stuff today

    The same logic should really apply to the vast US fleet of US tanks and planes designed to fight the soviet army - what other war are you saving it for?
     
  7. spejic

    spejic Cautionary example

    Mar 1, 1999
    San Rafael, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Another problem is that, like it or not, Russia is integral to the world economy. The West needs them right now to keep oil, gas, wheat, and especially fertilizer and especially oil cheap. Don't ask the world if they would rather have genocide or two-year-ago inflation because you might not like the answer.
     
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  8. spejic

    spejic Cautionary example

    Mar 1, 1999
    San Rafael, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    The bulk cargo ship Usko Mfu took gypsum from Turkey to Sevastopol. As ships entering occupied parts of Ukraine often do, it turned off its transponder, but satellite images clearly showed it docked there. Well, that's not too uncommon. Except that this ship then decided to take a trip up the Danube to take some barley from Moldova to Greece, which involves going into Ukrainian waters. And there a Ukrainian ship stopped and seized it and it's now anchored near Reni.

    Yeah, no one buys that transponder trick.
     
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  9. spejic

    spejic Cautionary example

    Mar 1, 1999
    San Rafael, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Ukraine struck the Kapustin Yar test site, where Russia tests all sorts of missiles from ICBMs to SAMs. Multiple drones hit the large building there.
     
  10. spejic

    spejic Cautionary example

    Mar 1, 1999
    San Rafael, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Keir Starmer has indicated that Storm Shadow missiles can be used on Russian targets inside Russia.

    In other Storm Shadow news, Russia has enough shot down examples that they are trying to reverse engineer them.
     
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  11. Yoshou

    Yoshou Fan of the CCL Champ

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I wonder what the success rate for storm shadows/scalps are now. It seems like most of Ukraine's attacks on Crimea are now with ATACMS and I haven't heard much from SS/SCALPs in awhile.
     
  12. Yoshou

    Yoshou Fan of the CCL Champ

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Ukraine is in talks with the US to allow them to strike Russian airfields (and other military targets) further inside Russia.

     
  13. yasik19

    yasik19 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Chelsea
    Ukraine
    Oct 21, 2004
    Daly City
    https://www.navalnews.com/naval-new...base-in-abkhazi-separatist-region-of-georgia/

    New Development In Black Sea, Russian Navy Using Base In Georgia
    A Russian Navy Ship has been observed in Ochamchire, in the Abkhazia separatist region. The Black Sea port may become an important base for the Russian Navy, acting as a safe refuge from the Ukrainian surface drones. It is officially Georgian territory however, making the move politically bold, and complicated
     
  14. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    June events have made those talks much more urgent. sigh

    this timeline sucks so, so much

    Thank Christ my ego is too big for me to be suicidal

    (just kidding guys don’t swat me)
     
  15. spejic

    spejic Cautionary example

    Mar 1, 1999
    San Rafael, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    It's hard to say. There's also attacks where the Ukrainians don't say what weapon they used, but it might conceivably be drone, guided bomb, or even their native Neptune in addition to Storm Shadow / SCALP.
     
  16. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    So this is quite significant IMO - especially in context of the massive polish buildup

    These are preparations for a wider conventional war in europe - obviously also to try to deter one

     
  17. diablodelsol

    diablodelsol Member+

    Jan 10, 2001
    New Jersey
    2026? Too little too late.
     
  18. Yoshou

    Yoshou Fan of the CCL Champ

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Speaking of which… The US and Germany apparently foiled a Russian plot to assassinate the CEO of Rheinmetall. It was to be part of a coordinated campaign to assassinate CEOs of European defense companies.

    https://www.cnn.com/2024/07/11/politics/us-germany-foiled-russian-assassination-plot/index.html
     
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  19. rslfanboy

    rslfanboy Member+

    Jul 24, 2007
    Section 26
  20. Yoshou

    Yoshou Fan of the CCL Champ

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Depends? So far the plots have been mostly unsuccessful. So as long as they continue to be unsuccessful, it’s unlikely that it would result in a declaration of war or article 5 trigger.
     
  21. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    time to launch a schwerpunkt on Belgorod.
     
  22. spejic

    spejic Cautionary example

    Mar 1, 1999
    San Rafael, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    They appear to be walking this back now.
     
  23. Yoshou

    Yoshou Fan of the CCL Champ

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well, it looks like Russia is preparing to attack dams in Ukraine.

     
  24. spejic

    spejic Cautionary example

    Mar 1, 1999
    San Rafael, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    A Russian S-300 near Mariupol was attacked. Don't know the results yet.

    A Russian Sukhoi Superjet-100 passenger jet crashed near Moscow. It was on a test flight just after maintenance and it only had three crew on it. All dead.
     
  25. Uhm, there have been successful sabotage acts against Dutch ngo vehicles of aid for Ukrain organizations. These crashed, because misteriously wheels fell off. I suppose these terrorist acts have been acted out against such organisations in other European countries too.
     

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