Ukraine Football (and the inevitable stream-of-conscienseness NSR)

For a negative, this point is pretty weak. The Jews have been as gentle as occupiers of a hostile people as the world has ever seen. (No, of course I'm not saying its all peachy keen!) And on top of that, the Arabs did start the war, and while Jews were doing mean things to Arabs, Arabs were starving the entire Jewish population of Jerusalem. War sucks.
If that's all we can come up with for Jews, I feel pretty good about that.

 

Yet, would Okudzhava be an Okudzhava had the he lived elsewhere, growing not surrounded by the members of the non-elite that you detest so much?
Its brutal, disgusting history, laziness, alcoholism and anti-semitism? Could you expand on that please? After all, that same country of brutal/disgusting history was not enslaved, when the super-duper Jews could not unite in any way to prevent themselves from being shipped off to places like Auschwitz. And one can argue had it not been for the smelly Russians with their brutal disgusting history, none of us would be bantering here on the subject.

 

That's a pretty damn weak argument, and I have a feeling you know it. Stalin certainly didn't gear up the motherland against Nazism to help the Jews. That, in his mind, was an unfortuante side effect, given how much he did to dent Jewish numbers throughout his life. You are familiar with the Doctors Plot he was about to carry out right before he "died", yes?
As for "super-duper" Jews...what exactly did you expect them to do against the Wehrmacht?

 

My point isn't that being large makes Russia particularly bad, merely that being large has nothing whatsoever to do with the worth of the Russian culture -- which I would say should be measured by its history of innovation, education, development of new ideas, art, and treatment of the country's "have-nots" throughout the ages.

 

But you don’t occupy that big an area by being completely incompetent, do you?

 

Errrm, are you recommending Mein Kampf? I think it bangs on about the bad things Jews have done as well.
But it seems to me that therein the problem lies - just because the Jews have not been in a majority position and have for centuries been unable to rule (and ********** up) territories, it annoys me somewhat when some bang on about it in the sense of the "chosen people" - what a load of garbage.

Soviet rule - different scale but what about all the Jewish leaders of the revolution - surely they played part in the building of a national disaster of vast proportions. Why do the Jews seem to feel no responsibility for that and yet accuse, say, Russians of being brutal and pathetic?

"tolerance, sobriety and action".
Tolerance? Examples of gross intolerance and examples of tolerant empires.
Sobriety? Drinking well too much?
Action - yes, the slowly-getting-off-the-ass syndrome is present. But whenever it is overcome, the consequences are frightening.

Cream of culture? Where the ********** would the cream rest if the rest wasn't there???

Did the anti-Jewishness of the Soviet Union not increase when Israel told Stalin to ********** off after he'd given them German materiel to fight Arabs to try to get them over to the Soviet side?

 

Incompetent? Well, most of Russia's impressive size comes from their control of mostly uninhabited lands of the East. And generally speaking, when it came to holding on to territory at all costs, the resolve of Russian czars and party leaders has been quite impressive. Still don't know what that's got to do with anything though

 

It has a lot to do with everything. They got there before the Chinese, who are much closer to it.

 

I am trying to come up with an argument for Jews running their own state. How's kicking out of millions a gentle occupation? Or is it 'cos they simply didn't kill them all? Also, did the Arabs start a war for no reason?

 

Perhaps, although I would never discount the extent of Chinese knowledge prior to sealing themselves off from the world.

 

Let's not make it into another Israel-Palestine thread

 

I am sorry but that seems to be the only example of Israel foreign and domestic policy so far, so I am trying to figure out who is prefect whilst the Russian state has been so brutal, backward, lazy and pathetic.

 

But managing such a vast territory (however empty it might be) require a bit of skill as well. Alaska and the lands down to Fort Ross were sold, 'cos they could not be run properly.
Yes, a lot of modern Russia as it is known started with Peter the Great. Yes, literature and art did not flourish until the 19th century; however, a lot of religious art and architectur existed since the middle ages. One also cannot discount the fact of Mongol occupation, which was necessarily stifling, though it did eventually lead to slow unification of Russian lands. Yet, who the ********** knows - had the Russians not been there, would the Mongols have gone beyond Krakow and obliterate all the cultural developments of the Western World (who were very busy kicking the ********** out of each other at the time).
Have-nots? What type of have nots?

 

Nowhere, did I write down that the Soviet Union set out to liberate Jews - that would be positively ridiculous. In fact, it seems none of the combatants really gave a flying ********** about the Jews (Churchill notoriuously withheld extermination camp info, so that the "humanitarian"-minded public would not go inconveniently nuts). Yet, history works in mysterious ways - had the backward, pathetic Russians not stood and fought, there would not have been many Jews left (the Jewish side of my family were on the last boat out of Sebastopol in 1942)). That is a fact from which one cannot run. Nothing to do with Stalin or any other commies in charge and their doctors' plots.

The Motherland geared up, 'cos the people of the Motherland realised they will all get bum**********ed for eternity if they didn't gear up.

Super-duper Jews - despite them being super-duper throughout their adimarable history, when it came to the destruction of them as a people, they found themselves too dispersed and divided to stand up to a horrible-horrible centralised state. Yet, Russia, depsite being pathetic and backward, managed to stand up for itself.

 

-- Why is it that whenever three Jews meet up, there are always four opinions between them?
-- It's because one of them has a Russian daddy

Alright, since this thread is rapidly becoming a big Jewish confession booth, I am actually quite happy that this is a relatively remote BS outpost.

Guys (DK_USA and nicephoras), I respect your passion. I really do. However, it is quite apparent that your passion is stemming not from your wanting to explain things the way they actually are but from your burning desire to for them to become that way.
Let me explain what I mean.

First of all, both of you gravely underestimate the importance of the native language. The language is the most important vehicle of creating a culture and passing it along. It's nothing short of paramount. You, DK_USA, seemed to defend this very point of view on the Politics board.
There are few other factors that are as important. Namely, two others: statehood and religion. These are the three ethnos-forming factors and you need at least one to fully associate yourself with any ethnic or national group.
You have none of them.
1) You do not live in a predominantely Jewish state. Whatever warm feelings for Israel you two may have, an ethnic Armenian who lives in Haifa, pays taxes, serves in the military and speaks fluent Hebrew is infinitely more Israeli than both of you put together. You may enjoy the time you spend in the country, but you belong in the company of vodka-drinking Ivans or income-tax-calculating Brians to a much greater extent than in the company of modern-day young sabras. Simply because their culture is Middle Eastern and yours is Euro-American.
Believe me, I know. My two half-sisters serve in the Israeli army.
2) You are obviously atheistic or agnostic. There is a part of the Soviet heritage I am actually thankful for. And, just as some bigoted Russians will never accept me as their own, there are as many bearded nuts who will think you two are as bad as goyim, if not worse. (Actually, all three of us are much more likely to be accepted among Americans, but it's hard to identify yourself as primarily Yankee, isn't it?)
3) You do not speak either Yiddish or Hebrew.

So, what is left there for you to claim your Jewishness above your Russianinity and Americosity?
Other than the abstract "blood lines", the memories of anti-Semitism and the desire to become as Jewish as you can, not much.
You hate anti-Semites? I have Russian friends who do too.
You love reading Sholom-Aleichem in the Russian or English translation? This makes you no different from my Tatar mother-in-law.
You attempt to immerse yourself into the Jewish way of life and the Jewish way of thinking, sans religion, language and statehood? Ah, there it is! But what is it? It's hard, ain't it?

Of course, your dilemma and your predicament is very typical specifically for Jews, with our history of exile and cultural confusion. The things that kept us together for the last 1800 years (religion and isolation) are no longer there to the same extent, and our generation, unlike the previous ones, was raised fully assimilated. Hell, I am even mixed and married to a schicksa.
You can name many things that differentiate you from Russians and Americans (though, of course, an "American" is a slightly broader term) and make you "uniquely Jewish", but these traits are not universally Jewish, you know. They are Russian-Jewish and American-Jewish. A Moroccan Sephard won't know what the hell you are talking about and neither will most of the sabras.
Gefilte fish, tsimes and the preference for an intellectual line of work are products of the diaspora.

I respect your parents, nicephoras, for doing what they can to preserve a cultural heritage, but you were growing up a Russian Jew with the emphasis on the "Russian". The statehood and the language was there and as for other things, well, Russia's multiculturalism and ethnic mish-mash can rival that of America's.
Now you are in America, a country whose greatest quality is in giving an individual the freedom to choose his own way of life. In light of this, your decision to immerse yourself into American manifestations of the Jewish culture is commendable.
Of course, now you are on your way to becoming American Jews, with the emphasis on "American". All there is to it.

I certainly cannot fault your for it, though I may doubt your chances of success. You've chosen your way and I've chosen mine. For me, with the "Russian" (language) and the "American" (statehood) being about equally balanced, with the "Jewish" (grandma) as a vocal minority, I see the language as the decisive factor, without disregarding the other parts of my personality.

I really care very little about the Russian bigots' opinion. They, the rednecks and the bearded nuts can go and kiss my cosmopolitan Russo-American-Jewish arse.

What I would like to say, however, is that beginning your own cultural re-education by summarily denouncing other cultures is probably not a good way to go.
Oh, it's easy to point out the numerous faults of the Russian national character, but it's also easy to concentrate on equally abominable traits of your prototypical Jew. And, of course, by detesting the Russian culture, you are also detesting (thank you, nicephoras) Pasternak, Babel, Ilf, Eisenstein, Brodsky, Gorin, Zhvanetsky, Raikin and, last but certainly not least, the great and indomitable Nikolai Epshtein, one of the founding fathers of Russian hockey, the man without whom Larionov and Krutov would've probably been low-income chemical plant employees in Voskresensk.
These are the men who also define Russian culture and are as important to the Russian self-identification as Solzhenitsin, Dostoyevsky (yes, both raving anti-Semites), vodka and fat ladies with snow shovels.
As for anti-Semitism, if you were to start detesting every country with a history of established Jew-hating, your list will be very long, with DK_USA's native land right at the top and our current place of residense far from the bottom.

 

This is not a fair comparison. European Jews, a decetralized group, without an army, a govenrment or an economy had no chance whatsoever against one of the most efficient war nations in the history of the Earth.
There was an attempt of organized resistance (the Warsaw ghetto), which was as brave and heroic as it was hopeless. When Europe's largest nation rolls over without firing a shot, you can't really expect much from a bunch of social pariahs.
You should know better than making statements like that.

As for Russia, what stood up was a huge authoritarian state with human and economical resourses. And, of course, a diverse, multi-ethnic population.

 

Clever. Who the ******** said Jews were perfect?

 

Shurik... you're a Mod not a troll.
Act the part.

I love how the conversation is turning out though...

I like New York Jews because they make really good bagels and move to Florida and bring their Bagel-Making technology with them.

 

I am not taking the Second World War as an isolated incident. Of course, the Jews did not stand a chance. I am not so completely insane as to suggest otherwise. My point was that at that stage of history the uber-backward pathetic Russians were in such a state where they could stand up for themselves, yet the Jews were in no such position. Thus I am oversimplifying but I would like to say that Russians must've done something right along the way, whereas the Jews went wrong somewhere, despite being super-duper.

My view is - live the way you like, do whatever way you want but do not diss another country and people unnecessarily (your point about other culture-denial from the previous post).

 

That's monstrously stupid. I guess all conquered people went wrong somewhere, even in situations where they didn't have the remotest chance to resist. The hatred of a population, I suppose, is now the measure of one's efficacy. Brilliant.

I can diss whomever I want whenever I want. This is an internet message board, not an Orwellian state. Given the experiences of Jews in Russia and the Ukraine, I'm hardpressed to find any reason to be positive about the places at all. (I suppose after Chmelnitski they did stop killing Jews wholesale; they spread pogroms out, for fun.) If you think Russia's horrific Stalinist regime is justified by its defeat of Hitler, so be it.

 

No one did and no one is perfect - thus I think the cussing of Russia was well OTT.

 

That's relativist stupidity. FDR wasn't perfect. Neither was Stalin. However, I'll gladly take one over the other.

 

Having a country certainly helps. There is a lot to be said about statehood, isn't there?
Actually, the mere fact that Jews managed to preserve any kind of self-identity despite being deprived of a state is utterly amazing. Most others went the way of Polovtsi and Incas.

They are just frustrated about having too many of those hated Russian qualities themselves. It's natural.

 

Not quite.

 

Perhaps I should clarify: it's natural for someone who is desperately trying to acquire a new ethnic identity or shore up an old one. (refer to the previous page)