Ukraine Football (and the inevitable stream-of-conscienseness NSR)

Discussion in 'Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, & the former Soviet Repu' started by ecosseboy2004, Nov 23, 2004.

  1. Russian Scouser

    Russian Scouser Red Card

    Nov 17, 2004
    that Lundun
    Re: Ukraine Football

    Jesus, where the hell was your school?
    Mind you, back in the day, apparently one could narrow the Jews at the Moscow State University down to certain years, when there weren't enough applications and they had to take Jews.
     
  2. metros11

    metros11 Member

    Sep 11, 1999
    Highlands of NJ
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: Ukraine Football

    Wouldn't that make you Moldovan?
     
  3. Shurik

    Shurik New Member

    Nov 2, 1999
    Baltimore, MD
    Re: Ukraine Football

    Alas, Romanian was not spoken around the house and I barely know a dozen words. But my grandma did cook a mean mamalyga when the mood struck her. She loved it with salo, by the way.
     
  4. nicephoras

    nicephoras A very stable genius

    Fucklechester Rangers
    Jul 22, 2001
    Eastern Seaboard of Yo! Semite
    Re: Ukraine Football

    Moscow. Starting with first grade, mind you. And the political appoints to Pioneers. No, sadly, I'm not joking.

    Unless you happened to be EXTREMELY well connected, and then it depended on what you wanted to study.
     
  5. nicephoras

    nicephoras A very stable genius

    Fucklechester Rangers
    Jul 22, 2001
    Eastern Seaboard of Yo! Semite
    Again, I disagree. I wasn't Russian there, and I don't plan on being Russian here. As far as I'm concerned, I have some traits that harken back to mother Russia, but my family always made it very clear to me that we weren't Russian. And thus we were gone the first chance we had. I'm Jewish, and I happened to be born in Russia. That's the way Russians looked at it, and that's the way I've looked at it my whole life. Sadly, that's not irrelevant. Just because I would prefer to look at myself as a Lazio forward with the combined skills of Beppe Signori, Seba and Nedved, doesn't mean I am. And if Russians didn't consider me Russian, and I didn't consider myself one, I'm not. Oh, you could say, that means you can consider yourself "not human" if no one else thought it. True, I suppose, but culture is an ephemeral sense. Do I have elements of Russian culture in my personality? Sure. Does that make me Russian? No, just like growing up in a concentration camp wouldn't have made me German.
    P.S. Berkeley doesn't give out scholarships, unless its on need. As my loans will attest.
     
  6. metros11

    metros11 Member

    Sep 11, 1999
    Highlands of NJ
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    One more thing Shurik, when you applied for your immigration visa into United States and the application asked 'Ethnicity', what did you put down?
     
  7. Russian Scouser

    Russian Scouser Red Card

    Nov 17, 2004
    that Lundun
    Re: Ukraine Football

    Did she ever say "napte bune"? :)
     
  8. Shurik

    Shurik New Member

    Nov 2, 1999
    Baltimore, MD
    Yes, I see. You are a child of Moscow Jewish intelligentsia parents who made it a point to raise you as un-Russian as possible. All while speaking Russian at home and celebrating Novyi God (DON'T TELL ME YOU DIDN'T! Because this would make you a filthy liar, a filthy, filthy liar).
    You are definitely not typical. That's fine.

    Who are they to know? They are a wild mixture of nomadic tribes with a huge portion of Mongolia in their blood. Their idea of what it means to be Russian is as badly misguided as the Russian Jews idea of what it means to be Jewish.
    You average anti-semitic Kolya Ivanov is as Russian as your average asthmatic Borya Fridman. The only thing that separates them is the hatred of the former for the latter, which is based on stupidity and superficial ethnical traits.

    What is your idea of what it means to be Russian, by the way?
    I could express mine, but I am not nearly as eloquent as this guy. Matches most Syoma Finkelshteyns I know.


    Who am I to know? I broke my poor Jewsh mother's heart by getting involved in sports like all the goyim.
     
  9. Shurik

    Shurik New Member

    Nov 2, 1999
    Baltimore, MD
    My parents filled it out and, knowing them, they probably misspelled whatever they tried to enter there.

    The Soviet passport idea of ethnicity is whatever your daddy's passport says. The Russian bigot's idea of ethnicity is how big your nose is.
    Why should I listen to either?
     
  10. Russian Scouser

    Russian Scouser Red Card

    Nov 17, 2004
    that Lundun
    Re: Ukraine Football

    Bloody 'ell, my school in a town just outside Moscow did not suffer from anti-Jewish sentiments. My teachers hated me for being a scal, rather than a Jew on my maternal side. Or that's what I thought anyway and I was very proud to be a Pioneer. :)

    Yeah, that's apparently how people like Berezovsky got in - connections and he had he his PhD written for him, mind, as he was pretty p*ss poor at the subject. :) Mind you, now, whether you are Jewish, Russian or Martian, you virtually can't get in unless you have cash. Pretty unfortunate state of affairs.

    Me ma (the one of the donkey fame, yah :)) went to KEROSINKA - that's where all the Jews, who couldn't get into MSU ended up. Did they consider themselves Russian? From what I remember, it was quite variable.
     
  11. Russian Scouser

    Russian Scouser Red Card

    Nov 17, 2004
    that Lundun
    Not even if you play ball? :)
     
  12. DynamoKiev_USA

    DynamoKiev_USA New Member

    Jul 6, 2003
    Silver Spring, MD
    I couldn't agree more with everything said here by nicephoras.

    I grew up in Kiev, went to a Russian school, never had anything resembling a bar-mitzva, though we did get together as a family for Pesach and Rosh-haShana meals, and got matzos from JOINT, or whatever that organization was called. I, of course, read and watched all the Russian and Soviet classics, as well as Ukrainian classics. Because I was getting ready to apply to journalism school at Kiev University, I wrote a lot, almost exclusively in Ukrainian, and spoke the language fluently -- and loved it.

    I love Okudjava and Gerdt, and Ironiya Sud'by, and Makarevich, but outside of the intelligentsia elite, I detest Russian culture despite speaking its language. I detest its brutal, disgusting history, its laziness, its alcoholism, and its anti-semitism.

    I am Jewish, and always will be. I identify with Jewish philosophy and outlook, and I'm proud of the intellectual and emotional heritage that I have received. I am a patriot of Israel, and regularly donate money to the Israeli Magen David Adom (Red Cross). I definitely hope to marry a Jewish woman soon, and will do my best to give my children a Jewish education. Them speaking Russian would be a huge bonus as well.

    And yet, I don't speak neither Yiddish nor Hebrew. I feel like I should learn it, and I will, but that's more just so that I can feel more comfortable when visiting Israel. Language is a very superficial measure of culture, and a culture reliant solely on language cannot last long -- certainly not in emmigration (though Ukrainians in America and Canada have done remarkably well preserving a core of their community for 3-4 generations now... but they are also bound by a common religion).

    Shurik, you are very wrong about the Russian Jewish community in America. Sure, many of them, like you, have assimilated too much into the Soviet culture. But there's a very large proportion who do identify themselves as Jewish ("Russian Jewish", if you will). You should've been there at the recent Okudjava bard concert in Rockville. Mostly Israeli Russian singers (including such "jewish" ones as Yuliy Kim ;) ) were singing his, and their own, songs -- with a strong Israeli/Jewish theme throughout the evening. I don't know how many people were in the audience -- maybe 1,000 (a full high school auditorium), but they were all singing along and wiping off tears with "Do svidaniya mal'chiki" sung in Hebrew, or with Kim's rendition of "Shiroka strana moya rodnaya" -- which Kim, who now lives in Israel, made into "S gul'ki nos strana moya rodnaya" :D

    There is something in our souls that tell us who we are -- something much deeper than the language or the remarks in our passports or the anti-semitism of those around us.

    But that something can vanish in the next generations if parents make no effort to impart it on their children, be it through rich stories about their grandparents, or through food, or holidays, or education.
     
  13. nicephoras

    nicephoras A very stable genius

    Fucklechester Rangers
    Jul 22, 2001
    Eastern Seaboard of Yo! Semite
    Card carrying member.

    Of course we did. And stopped as soon as we left. Some culture.

    Well.....not typical of what? My mother had no concept of other sorts of Jews until we reached Ladispoli, at which point she was shocked. It was a larger community than you give it credit for. And given how much more tangible anti-semitism was at those levels, we felt it more keenly. Its one thing if Vasya Vasilyev hits you for being a Jew. Its another matter when you graduate first in your high school with a red diploma, and after asking where you want to go to college your teacher laughs at your first response and says "no, really - where do you want to go? You're a Jew."

    Well, their idea is sadly considerably more valuable than what you give it. I see you have the healthy Jewish sense that the majority of people are stupid. This is undoubtedly true. It does not, however, mean that culture is defined by the intelligent.

    I've not found that to be entirely true. Somewhat true, sure. After all, you don't spend 100 years immersed in the society without picking up some of the habits.

    Find "bad" in a thesaurus. Or "vodka". It is best expressed, however, by an anecdote my parents like. What does a Russian man do if his wife desperately needs an operation but he only has half the money? He spends that half in a bar brooding and crying about how he only has half the money. That's the most apt description I've ever found.

    I guess I don't know as many Syomas.

    And yet now you work with words, like a nice boychik.
     
  14. nicephoras

    nicephoras A very stable genius

    Fucklechester Rangers
    Jul 22, 2001
    Eastern Seaboard of Yo! Semite
    Re: Ukraine Football

    Oh, see, that's not the thing. My classmates in first grade had no idea what a "Jew" was. My friend Dima couldn't understand why I was Jewish when his name and my mom's name ended with an "iy". What was I going to tell him, that I didn't believe in Jesus? Who the fvck is Jesus? My teachers, however, knew.

    I wasn't made a pioneer, even though I should have been based on my grades. For a second grader who's been convinced by his parents that education and academia are the most important thing EVER (you have no idea how many times its been pointed out to me that my great grandfather was a professor) its hits surprisingly hard. Sounds stupid now, but hey - I was nine.

    My dad met him a few times, actually. Not that Berezovsky was stupid - he wasn't. His particular talents, however, lay in working the byzantine bureaucracy that was Communism. He was the ultimate insider. How good he was at math is hard to know - he might have been OK had he actually tried.

    My grandfather was a professor at YOH. He knew quite well he was Jewish. As did my Mom; when she wanted to go into the Arts, my grandfather laughed at her and said "I can get you into the chemical faculty. Take it or leave it."
     
  15. nicephoras

    nicephoras A very stable genius

    Fucklechester Rangers
    Jul 22, 2001
    Eastern Seaboard of Yo! Semite
    I'm Jewish - like I was ever going to get a scholarship for sports!
     
  16. nicephoras

    nicephoras A very stable genius

    Fucklechester Rangers
    Jul 22, 2001
    Eastern Seaboard of Yo! Semite
    More than that, once you realize just how little of 20th century Russian culture is "Russian" I feel even less connected to it. The Soviet period was a product of Jews. What Russians were high up in the Commie hierarchy? Lenin (sort of). Bucharin, I guess. Who else? The rest were Poles (Dzerzhinsky), Georgians (guess who) and Jews. Esli v krane net vody.......you know how the rest goes. I can't think of much of Soviet culture that I like that wasn't heavily Jewish. Literature - Ilf and Petrov? Pasternak (though he did convert). Hell, even Raikin was half Jewish. So what am I supposed to feel connected to?

    P.S. Okudzhava is the only Russian music I listen to. I love the guy's music. Molitva Francois Villon is a brilliant song.
     
  17. PhillyFury

    PhillyFury Member

    Slavia Prague
    United States
    Jan 1, 2004
    Prague, Czech Republic
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    A question to all the Bar Mitzvah boys posting ad nauseam.... has there ever been an event or moment in the history of the Jewish people where they have done anything wrong or any harm to or against anyone outside their tribe/religion or have they only and always been the victim, never doing wrong to anyone else? On a related point, could anyone get away with writing the following about Jews without facing an ouslaught of calumny and denunciation?

    "I detest Russian culture despite speaking its language. I detest its brutal, disgusting history, its laziness, its alcoholism, and its anti-semitism."

    I noticed none of you flinched at this posting by DynamoKiev USA, so I assumed it didn't offend too much.
    Funny how he denounces anti-semitism while slurring a whole people and their culture and their assumed destructive proclivities... kinda like anti-Semitism, no??? Shall we call it anti-Slavicism??
     
  18. nicephoras

    nicephoras A very stable genius

    Fucklechester Rangers
    Jul 22, 2001
    Eastern Seaboard of Yo! Semite
    You don't like it? Don't ********ing read it. Not a complicated concept. I don't go looking for threads on the notions of a Czech soul and how important Pilsner is to it.

    Well, lets see......Evans did inflict Casino Royale on an unsuspecting populace. And Jay Fiedler's a pretty crappy QB.

    Let me try - I detest Jewish culture, its resurrected ancient faux language, its history of greed, money lending and terrible, terrible food.
    Hey - there we go!
    See, when you're the minority, you're allowed to say stuff like that. You're allowed to have an all black college if you're black. You can't have an all white college. Boy, it must SUCK to be the majority.

    Not really. You're free to think all Jews have wronged you. Just don't act on it. I'm not driving around shooting up Orthodox churches. (Yet.)

    Slurring? Do you know anything about Russian history? Look up the words "gulag" and "Jewish doctor plot". (My grandmother was a doctor. I can't explain how much we loved Stalin.)
    Alcoholism - have you seen Russia's alcohol rates?
    Laziness - well, when your fairy tales involve some schlub lying around on a stove and getting a magic fish to do things for you (Russian fairy tales are weeeeeeird) its a bad sign. And when you're blessed with the greatest natural resources of any country in the world, how do you not conclude laziness?
    And as for the charge of anti-semitism......does that one really need to be spelled out for you?

    Since not all Slavs are Russian, that'd be pretty stupid, no? Besides, it could be anti-slavicism, I suppose. Of course, that would mean Jews discriminating against Slavs. Because we all know how many times Jews were in a posiiton to do that in Eastern Europe. :rolleyes:
     
  19. DynamoKiev_USA

    DynamoKiev_USA New Member

    Jul 6, 2003
    Silver Spring, MD
    The Jews have had a pretty admirable history over the last 4,000 years or so, as peoples' histories go. Sure beats the barbarism, cruelty, and perpetual dogmatism of the Europeans, I'll tell you that much.

    Guess what, it's okay to judge and compare cultures if you actually know a good deal about them. Russian history is a pathetic history of brutality and wars, with a distinct lack of humanity or development of ideas -- a history of continual waste of the talent of its people and the resources of its land. You can blame the winters for laziness and alcoholism, I suppose, but pervasive chauvinism and general uselessness is inexcusable. Sorry if I offended anyone's sensibilities, but I'd say I'm pretty qualified to have an opinion on the subject :)
     
  20. Russian Scouser

    Russian Scouser Red Card

    Nov 17, 2004
    that Lundun
    Phew, having come here in the morning to have a little read - the anti-Russian sentiment is pretty wonderful. :) Hmmm... Judgements of a people who have not had a state for 1800 years after Emperor Hadrian induldged himself in a bit of Jew-bashing after losing a couple of legions and whose recent history of a state (The trusting British got their fingers badly burnt there :)) has been one constant war...
    As for Soviet Union p*ssing all over things Russian (until WW2) and Lenin's famous "********** Russia, we need to save the Revolution" - sums up the Commies' attitudes and indeed if one has a brief look at the Communist Party hierarchy, one might notice that Hitler's correlation between Communists and Jews was not totally loopy, when it came to Soviet Union :)
    Anyway, will return when have a bit of time. Very topical this as I am going to the ground of the most Jewish club of them all in the UK - Tottenham Hotspur.
    PS Anyone read Solzhenitsin's book on Russians and Jews? (I haven't had the chance yet) Or is he a grave anti-semite?
     
  21. Russian Scouser

    Russian Scouser Red Card

    Nov 17, 2004
    that Lundun
    Actually, just a quick couple of questions here.
    Let's take a couple of random incidents - the revolt against Hadrian - surely, that was a bit silly, no? :) Then one can admirably wander around for 2000 years without a state and be well admirable.
    Then , do correct me if I am wrong but the whole thing with the creation of the state of Israel - weren't the Jews allowed to arrive in Palestine on the basis that they won't...errrr... beat up those already there? (Expects to be pelted with eggs and pigs' heads :))

    Russia's pathetic history? :)If Russia was so pathetic, how did it manage to grow so large and all that, produce some fine old minds and artists, etc, etc? The State's economic reforms were not goignterribly badly until WW1 intervened and then, of course, a few Communists geezers turned up (as our right honourable friend mentions here - one or two Jews amongst them) and wrecked the place?
    Aside - vodka and the Periodic table were pretty closely linked. :) Don't forget that. And the general uselessness? What exactly do you mean by that?
    PS Someone explain the paradox to me - the Communist Party hierarchy gets dominated by Jews early on, yet the Soviet Union develops to be a pretty anti-semitic state.
     
  22. aloisius

    aloisius Member

    Jul 5, 2003
    Croatia
    I wanted to ask the same thing.
     
  23. DynamoKiev_USA

    DynamoKiev_USA New Member

    Jul 6, 2003
    Silver Spring, MD
    What does the size of their country have to do with anything other than the number of peoples and tribes they have conquered and killed?
     
  24. Russian Scouser

    Russian Scouser Red Card

    Nov 17, 2004
    that Lundun
    Oh, are we into killing tribes now? Which empire hasn't killed tribes, please? :) Should we start a list?
    USA - amerindians.
    Spain - amerindians, Jews, Moors.
    Britain - one or two Indians, slave traders par excellence.
    Portuguese - one or two Africans, slave traders par excellence.
    French - Vietnamese, West African.
    Romans killed one or two Jews, no - something like half a million?
    Jews - Arabs, whose rights were supposed to have been protected according to the original??? :)

    As for the size - development. spread of its culture, etc. Then again, the Mongols were kicking the ********** out of Russia for over 200 years - the country had to deal with the hostile threat. :) Actually for size - any optimal "allowed" size for a country? :)
     
  25. nicephoras

    nicephoras A very stable genius

    Fucklechester Rangers
    Jul 22, 2001
    Eastern Seaboard of Yo! Semite
    If you want a really serious discussion of the bad things Jews have done, I think there's a fairly popular book you can start with. You know - talks about this Jebus character.
    But in all seriousness, of course Jews have done less than stellar things. Some merely stupid (Bar Kochba rebellion) some destructive. But when you've always been the minority, its hard to find things Jews have done that have been remotely as nasty as say, Soviet rule.

    In the area of tolerance, sobriety and action, Russian's history is indeed pathetic. That hardly stops it from being quite remarkable in other ways. No one said the Russian culture had no redeeming values.

    The cream of Russian culture has always been intelligent, as has the cream of most any culture. And the 19th century rennaisance in the arts, despite giving us Dostoevsky and Tolstoy's great doorstops of the millenium was truly remarkable. Of course, I didn't say much about "evil Russian literature".

    Oh, that's rather simple. What's the easiest way for a Georgian to make nice with Russian people? Bash Jews together.
    In all seriousness, it had far more to do with the nature of opposition to Stalin, which was almost the entire Jewish wing of the Communist party (Trotsky, Kamenev, Zinoviev). Once they were gone, and Russians replaced them, things finally got back to normal.
     

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