Ukraine Football (and the inevitable stream-of-conscienseness NSR)

Discussion in 'Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, & the former Soviet Repu' started by ecosseboy2004, Nov 23, 2004.

  1. Shurik

    Shurik New Member

    Nov 2, 1999
    Baltimore, MD
    Re: Ukraine Football

    ganu said I equally dislike Russians and Ukrainians. It's not quite true. I equally dislike Russia and Ukraine, and though I equally hurt for the two countries' well-being, my hurt tends to be of a cynical, malicious kind. I guess, it's a typically Jewish trait.
    I also genuienly dislike linguistic and ethnic intolerance and those people who consider "Line Five" in the passport the most important human characteristic. My definition of ethnicity is the native language, which makes me Russian. Many Russians disagree with this point of view. Screw them.
    The fact that metros11 does not choose to notice my frequent and pointed barbs at Russian and Jewish cultures is simply due to the boy's acute inferiority complex. It's understandable. Hopefully, he too will grow more cynical with age (the process is already starting: see his description of the US political system a page earlier).

    If it makes you feel any better, metros11, my entire family on both sides (possibly safe for the mysterious Slavic-Gypsy grandfather who died 50+ years ago) is from Ukraine. My grandmother lived through the famine of 1933 and still remembers the Taras Shevchenko poems she learned in school. She only spoke Ukrainian and Yiddish until the age of 16. My second favorite club is Chernomorets Odessa. Note the spelling. It's intentional.
     
  2. Russian Scouser

    Russian Scouser Red Card

    Nov 17, 2004
    that Lundun
    Re: Ukraine Football

    Oh, Chernomorets Odessa? quality! :)
     
  3. metros11

    metros11 Member

    Sep 11, 1999
    Highlands of NJ
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: Ukraine Football

    How is that supposed to make me feel better? Your grandmother was Ukrainian and Yiddish... so what. That doesn't have anything to do with the fact that Ukraine is its own country and its own culture. It also has its own official language, Ukrainian. Its true that ever citizen can speak Russian, and its true that probably 33.3% are ethnically Russian (I'm half Russian myself), but thats expected when there is 60 years of Soviet rule. That still doesn't justify your thinking that Ukrainians should abort their nationalist culture in favor of Russian culture.
     
  4. nicephoras

    nicephoras A very stable genius

    Fucklechester Rangers
    Jul 22, 2001
    Eastern Seaboard of Yo! Semite
    Re: Ukraine Football

    I have a feeling most Russian Jews disagree with you on this point as well. I certainly do.
     
  5. Shurik

    Shurik New Member

    Nov 2, 1999
    Baltimore, MD
    Re: Ukraine Football

    To feel better or worse is your choice.
    To freely discuss Ukrainian, Russian and Jewish culture is my right, being the product of the three.


    You probably meant 1000 years of common history, language, culture and religion. My folks lived in the Odessa region sinse anyone in the family cares to remember.

    Of course it does. I can think whatever the hell I want to think. It's called the freedom of speech. And you are perfectly free to think that Russian language should be prohibited by law, the hard "g" made a capital offense and Drogobych a capital of the United Polish Ukranate of the Big Y. If you indeed want to think that.
    But, if you are interested in reality in any way at all, I dislike any kind of nationalism if its goals are not only promoting its own culture but subjugating others as well. In my perfect world you can eat your borsch in peace if your neighbour can similarly enjoy his shchi.
     
  6. Shurik

    Shurik New Member

    Nov 2, 1999
    Baltimore, MD
    Re: Ukraine Football

    They can. But they will still speak Russian better than Yiddish, drink vodka with more gusto than Manischewitz, prefer ham to latkes, celebrate Novyi God with more festivity than Rosh Hashana, and recite "Podmoskovnye Vechera" with much more confidence than "Hava Nagila".

    Which means that, despite of their opinion on the subject, they are more Russian than Jewish. The only think that makes them Hebrew is the opinion of "ethnic Russians" and the entrance in their daddy's "Line Five". Both are unimportant to me.
    And the only thing that makes them different from me is the willingness to embrace the truth.
     
  7. Russian Scouser

    Russian Scouser Red Card

    Nov 17, 2004
    that Lundun
    Re: Ukraine Football

    And the Crimea's Ukrainian history is fascinating too. :)
    By the way, speaking to a few people on Friday. The Ukrainians are encouraging the Crimean tatars to return (you know, those, who did not get on with Stalin) and effective use them to evict Russians who've been living in the Crimea for decades. Doing dirty work with others' hands. Wonderful.
     
  8. Russian Scouser

    Russian Scouser Red Card

    Nov 17, 2004
    that Lundun
    Re: Ukraine Football

    I am Jewish 'til I die but I consider myself Russian. Having said that, the State of Israel can embrace me at any point if I wish to be embraced and send me off to shoot Arabs for 3 years with greatest pleasure (not my pleasure, the state of Israel's pleasure :)).
     
  9. gaijin

    gaijin New Member

    Aug 1, 2004
    Malaysia
    Re: Ukraine Football

    Did I? :confused:

    I thought that was nicephoras?

    :rolleyes:
     
  10. Shurik

    Shurik New Member

    Nov 2, 1999
    Baltimore, MD
    Re: Ukraine Football

    Sorry. It's the senility.
     
  11. Shurik

    Shurik New Member

    Nov 2, 1999
    Baltimore, MD
    Re: Ukraine Football

    They will like that. But Yachve forbid you want to marry a schiksa! Then it's off to Cyprus with you to register the unholy civil union.
    Hey, religious intolerance is religious intolerance. Most Russian Jews are atheists anyway.
     
  12. nicephoras

    nicephoras A very stable genius

    Fucklechester Rangers
    Jul 22, 2001
    Eastern Seaboard of Yo! Semite
    Re: Ukraine Football

    Unless, of course, they've left. Which is what most have already done. I notice your place of residence says Maryland.

    But not to them. And certainly not to the rest of Russia.
     
  13. nicephoras

    nicephoras A very stable genius

    Fucklechester Rangers
    Jul 22, 2001
    Eastern Seaboard of Yo! Semite
    Re: Ukraine Football

    No need to italicize my name ganu. Its not that impressive.
     
  14. gaijin

    gaijin New Member

    Aug 1, 2004
    Malaysia
    Re: Ukraine Football

    fixed your post.

    ;)

    Lol....:D
     
  15. Shurik

    Shurik New Member

    Nov 2, 1999
    Baltimore, MD
    Re: Ukraine Football

    It's hard to run away from yourself. My Jewish stepfather's idea of Yom Kippur is to stay away from his homemade smoked pork for a couple of days. He lives in Upstate NY.
    NTV-America is on pretty much 24/7 in his house.

    They may think they are more Jewish than Russian, but it's certainly Alla Pugacheva and not Tumbalalaika I spy on their CD rack.
    They are as Russian as Tambov dirt. The fact that they (or the Russians) deny it means nothing.
     
  16. nicephoras

    nicephoras A very stable genius

    Fucklechester Rangers
    Jul 22, 2001
    Eastern Seaboard of Yo! Semite
    Re: Ukraine Football

    I'm hardly running away from myself, mostly because the self you ascribe to me doesn't exist. Aside from some Russian literature and poetry, I'm about as Russian as Walt Disney. Only less frozen.
    I could go into a long discussion of what "Russian" culture means to me, given my background, but I have neither the energy or the inclination. Suffice it to say no one in my family eats too much ham or watches any NTV. Give it one generation, and that Russian will be washed clean like grime. And the Jewish culture who's outward superficial trappings you're so quick to discard will suddenly seem the standard Jewish/American culture tempered with some FOBism.

    I think you're confusing Yiddish with Jewish Shurik.
     
  17. Russian Scouser

    Russian Scouser Red Card

    Nov 17, 2004
    that Lundun
    Re: Ukraine Football

    Kids in school never saw me as a Jew. :)
     
  18. Shurik

    Shurik New Member

    Nov 2, 1999
    Baltimore, MD
    Re: Ukraine Football

    Then you are unlike most of the Russian-speaking American residents I know. There is certainly something to be said for the wonderful variety of human endeavor.

    See above. Still, 99% of your typical Zhenya Lifshitses will easily fit my description.

    In a generation or two they will all be American, first and foremost. And marry full-breasted women of African descent. And spawn beautiful children. Lechaim, I say.

    Probably. I am just a swine-eating atheist Sovok, after all. Like (almost) all of my brethren.
     
  19. Shurik

    Shurik New Member

    Nov 2, 1999
    Baltimore, MD
    And you are being mighty presumptious when you think I am discarding anything. I enjoy the proper gefilte fish as much as my Tatar wife.
    I am aware of my ethnic background and I hate anti-Semites all the way to the deepest corners of my soul. But I am still Russian where it matters.
    Cultural values are carried primarily through language. This is the "deep" and "inward" trapping of any culture. This is why the early Palestinian Jews waged war on Yiddish and forcefully installed their half made-up Hebrew. And they were right to do it! It's also exactly why a Soviet-born Israeli will find much more in common with General Makashov than an average sabra.
    The language I speak and think in, the language that was used to build my worldview and my principles and cultural tastes is what makes me a Russian American of partially Jewish ethnicity and not a Jewish American born in a Russian-speaking environment. Of course, your mileage may vary.
     
  20. nicephoras

    nicephoras A very stable genius

    Fucklechester Rangers
    Jul 22, 2001
    Eastern Seaboard of Yo! Semite
    Where exactly is that?

    If that were true, I'd be pining for the snow and playing the balalayka. Perhaps some people just took being Jewish a bit more centrally to their identity than you did.

    Wouldn't know.

    And it does, despite my gounding in said language. So clearly your theory is not universal.
     
  21. nicephoras

    nicephoras A very stable genius

    Fucklechester Rangers
    Jul 22, 2001
    Eastern Seaboard of Yo! Semite
    Re: Ukraine Football

    Again, I disagree. While I don't tend to associate with that many Russians, most of the ones I know don't live their lives glued to NTV and eating salo.
    Besides, ripping away people in their 40s and placing them in a country where they don't speak the language will do that. Given one generation none of these people will call themselves Russian. Because the outward trapping of Russian "culture" will disappear. But the Jewish part, to which I don't think you ascribe enough, will stay.

    I don't agree with your notion of "culture" if all it takes to disappear is changing one's language.

    Perhaps fewer than you think.
     
  22. nicephoras

    nicephoras A very stable genius

    Fucklechester Rangers
    Jul 22, 2001
    Eastern Seaboard of Yo! Semite
    Re: Ukraine Football

    Mine did. Of course, it helped that my ethnicity was written in every teacher's notebook in the proper column. "Russian" my ass.
     
  23. Shurik

    Shurik New Member

    Nov 2, 1999
    Baltimore, MD
    Yes, the next generation will speak English, grow up playing video games with titles like Extreme Bloodness XVIII, will dream about scoring touchdowns and screwing the Homecoming queen, will try to go to Berkeley on a scholarship and spend their life in a pursuit of a decent portfolio, a solid 401(k) and a quiet Alzheimeric death in Florida at -- oh, somewhere around 85 or so.
    They will be American. Of Jewish or Russian ethnical descent. It's how it works. No different from Americans of Irish, Italian, Korean or Sudanese descent.
    Just like I am, a Russian of Jewish descent. It just so happens that I am willing to recognize this fact of life.
    I may not be too proficient with the balalaika (which makes me no different from an average Russian), but I still see most of my character's traits coming straight from the big, great hunk of land out East and the Slavic/Nomadic culture that greatly influenced all of its residents.
    Would this have been different if I spoke Yiddish as my native tongue? Most definitely it would have been, since this would've meant my living in an isolated enclave, with its own cultural mores and traditions. But this didn't happen. It's the Railroad Workers' Middle Education School Number 13, baby.
     
  24. Shurik

    Shurik New Member

    Nov 2, 1999
    Baltimore, MD
    Re: Ukraine Football

    Yes, I am bitter too. Many Russians are bitter for being Soviets. But they still are. C'est la vie.
     
  25. Russian Scouser

    Russian Scouser Red Card

    Nov 17, 2004
    that Lundun
    Why shoudln't they? Good uni, that. :)
     

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