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Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by Scotty, Sep 27, 2003.
Thousands March in London Over Iraq War
Im not sure if you can read the fine print on those posters, so let me spell it out for you. THEY ARE SOCIALIST WORKERS! THEY ARE MARXISTS!
Of course those people arn't down with us dismantling tyranny.
Communism has only killed 100,000,000 people! Let's give it another chance!
Re: Re: UK: over 10,000 march against Iraq war
Dude, they're Londoners.
And where do you get your numbers? Totalitarianist ANYTHING reduces life, but communism is a whithering away of the state because people, as a social species, have grown to not need government...at all.
The centralized, totalitarian regimes that have called themselves democracies (in the case of Ashcroft's shadow USA), polities, and communist governments (Russia, China) are all telling the same type of lie, for the same types of reasons. But don't allow that lying to cloud your ability to discern truth...
Re: Re: Re: UK: over 10,000 march against Iraq war
Ugh...it must suck to be you. You see no diffrence between the US and the communist regimes that have left only bodies as a legacy?
Communism is great,just ask the Lithuanians.
"Communism and its perpetrators have committed unimaginable crimes against humanity. Communist regimes in the world have resulted in the largest political massacre human history has ever experienced. From 1917 to 1989 communists alone killed between 85 to 100 million people. *
If we consider just Soviet occupied Lithuania 800 000 people were lost. 300 000 Lithuanians were imprisoned or deported to Siberia or the Far Northern regions of the Soviet Union. One out of every three of these Lithuanian citizens imprisoned and deported died from torture or appalling living conditions in the extreme climate. The Soviets occupying the territory of Lithuania executed more then 30 000 people."
Ahem. Mao killed around 34 million of his own people. Lenin killed 4 million in the '21 collectivization and Joe Stalin killed around 24 million in his collectivization move. Joe Stalin ordered that Ukrainian nationalists be crushed and collectivization be enforced. He murdered 8 million Ukrainians.The Soviets shot, tortured, beat, froze or starved to death another 12 million. That put's Soviet death toll from 1917-1953 at 48 million.
The Chinese killed a million in Tibet, and the North koreans killed a million in the south. Pol Pot killed three million in Cambodia, and North Korea has killed another 1.5 million of it's own people. Add in teh amount of people killed my communist secret polices worldwide and you get to that 100 million number. But hey, i guess everyone deserves a second chance.
Re: Re: Re: UK: over 10,000 march against Iraq war
By Marxist decree, you must of course follow up this statement with "and we all know that TRUE communism has never been achieved......yet." Dreamer.
I've never read Marx's Marxist doctrine, but does anyone think that he advocated ruthless military dictatorship as part of his brave new way of governing? Does anyone believe that if could see the nightmares communism has caused he'd be say "yes, well done stalin, well done Pol Pot, that's exactly how I hoped it would be"?
In short, communism - nice idea but fundamentally flawed and ripe for abuse by power-crazed dictators.
Saddam killed how many hundreds of thousands?
Scathing indictment of capitalism there.
manny, you probably have much better eyesight than I do (not difficult), but I cannot read those slogans.
I can only see "Bliar" (front centre-left), "no more lies" (front right), "end occupation of Iraq" (front left), "self determination for Iraq" (front centre).
They probably are held up by far left malcontents, but I would like you to actually point out a slogan that actually says what you claim.
More seriously for Blair (after all, this march is much smaller than those before the war), it looks like the Murdoch press is turning on him. The Sun gave him the "yellow card" today, and the Sunday Times had a scathing editorial yesterday...
Until now, the Murdoch press has been very supportive of Blair. They are something of a bellweather, because they only support who looks like winning. They have not switched support yet because no-one else looks like winning, but it looks like they are abandoning Blair because he is damaged goods. So all it needs now is for either the Liberals or the Tories to become a credible alternative.
Yea, i didn't read the poster from here. i saw this story on the news. The black poster in the left corner has grey print atop which says "Socialist Worker."
So it went from "THEY ARE ALL SOCIALIST COMMUNISTS!!" to "Theres this guy in the WAAAAAAAY back corner who has Socialist Worker typed in the top of his poster? Manny, I know you take a beating on here, and I don't like to jump on, but are you kidding me?
The clip i saw on the news showed hundreds of those signs.
Jacen, I know you're busy with homework so I forgive you for not being on top of things. But, the sponsor for the anti-war protests is International ANSWER...a known group of radical socialists and Marxists. Just one look at their website and several endorser organizations are:
-Freedom Road Socialist Organization
-International Socialist Organization (ISO)
-Socialist Party of Michigan
-Irish Republican Socialist Committees of North America
-Freedom Socialist Party
-Youth for Socialist Action
-Marxist Voice of Labor and Youth
I won't even go into the hundreds of organizations too embarrassed to use those terms in their name. So, they use "social justice", "democracy", and other code words.
So, if everyone on that picture, and presumably the many thousands who are not, but who did march against the war and occupation are SOCIALIST WORKERS and MARXISISTS!, does it follow that anyone who did not oppose the war is a fascist capitalist pig-dog?
Or look at it another way - does the presence of the Socialist Worker party (or, more accurately, members of the Socialist Worker party) mean everyone there is a SOCIALIST and a MARXIST? I mean, sure, you're unlikely to see any Young Conservatives banners there, but that's because the Young Conservatives draw their numbers from the same intellectually and morally constipated ranks of the political right that you dreary pro-war armchair cowards hail from. You would not expect to see the chinless brigade at an event such as this.
But you WOULD expect to see the Socialist Worker Party there. You would even expect to see MARXISTS! But is every one of them someone who adheres to that philosophy? Does everyone wish Saddam was still in power and that the Soviet Union still existed and that tyranny everywhere was just given a bloody break already.
Or is that just a childish generalisation Manny?
No. I've seen ANSWER rallies before and these people are all marxists, and i don't take kind to people who believe in it.
For which the same MUST be said about any "ism," including captialist republicanism, of which the US has in spades...
Re: Re: Re: Re: UK: over 10,000 march against Iraq war
Let's examine some definitions:
NOUN: 1. A theoretical economic system characterized by the collective ownership of property and by the organization of labor for the common advantage of all members. 2. Communism a. A system of government in which the state plans and controls the economy and a single, often authoritarian party holds power, claiming to make progress toward a higher social order in which all goods are equally shared by the people. b. The Marxist-Leninist version of Communist doctrine that advocates the overthrow of capitalism by the revolution of the proletariat.
You are referring to definitions 2, maybe 3; even with 3, the so-called "overthrow" is part of an evolution where, again, the end result is a total whitering away of the state such that people govern themselves in a maturity of species. I am, on the other hand, referring to the primary one. Indeed, I would submit that only through galactic levels of misnomer is Definition 2 included in the definition at all...it should really be bunged in here, don't you think:
ADJECTIVE: Of, relating to, being, or imposing a form of government in which the political authority exercises absolute and centralized control over all aspects of life, the individual is subordinated to the state, and opposing political and cultural expression is suppressed: “A totalitarian regime crushes all autonomous institutions in its drive to seize the human soul” (Arthur M. Schlesinger, Jr.).
NOUN: A practitioner or supporter of such a government.
That's really what your talking about when you are talking about Pol Pot, Stalin, Hitler, and, yes, IMHO, Ashcroft and thus meaningful aspects of the Bush doctrine.
But let's get our definitions straight first, so we can speak with each other and not past each other, i.e., if you cannot acknowledge that the primary defintion of "communism" is quite simply not the word as YOU are using it, I'll know whether or not we're having a pie-in-the-sky discussion, or one here on earth, with the green grass under our feet...
Now manny, this response is plainly foolish, and threatens to sentence you to the ignominy of fools who have gone before you.
I've attended a few anti-Iraq-invasion rallies, and I'm nowhere near a Marxist (indeed, you might have some trouble, given your above discourse, in understanding my and mine at all). I've endorsed ANSWER's position in leading the organization of said rallies, but am not a member of ANSWER.
Yo say you've "seen" ANSWER rallies before; from where, the anchor desk of the 700 Club? What does that mean; you've "seen" them before? How does that inform, in any meaningful way, your actual knowledge of any marcher or organization?
I’m sure they’re crushed you don’t “take kind” to them. Marxists and ANSWER activists are notoriously sensitive about how they play amongst American dittohead right-wing college kids.
But why do you hate freedom and democracy so much?
FWIW, the march was attended by as broad a cross-section of society as the earlier, much larger protests that took place. But of course, a large representation of people you might not “take kind” to were on hand.
How'd you know I was busy with homework? It's true (this is the first round of exams this semester), but strange! At any rate, yeah, I have been out of the loop, both due to exams and the fact that I can't afford cable tv! I didn't know about the International ANSWER organization. Is there a link showing that they sponsored the protest? Also is there a link to their website? Thanks!
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: UK: over 10,000 march against Iraq war
Spin it how ever you like you poor soul.
How you can shrug off 100 million deaths with a dictionary definition is beyond me.
Why don't you ask them that?
Ask them why you hate freedom and democracy? I don't think you do, as it happens. You just lack a coherent understanding of either concept. That, or you are too immature to accept either concept in it's totality.
Alex got into college?
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: UK: over 10,000 march against Iraq war
So government directed genocide, ethinic cleansing, forced relocations, and widespread killing is bad right?
Care to comment on the lasting effect on indiginous culture as a result of unbridled capitalism, manifest destiny, and the means of achieving it?
Blaming "communism" for the evils you detailed is just as dumb as blaming "capitalism" for the sins of americas past.
Otherwise, you have the same imperitive to STFU as you feel "communists" do.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: UK: over 10,000 march against Iraq war
I don't. I simply call it what it is - totalitarianism, which, whether its couched under the guise of so-called communism or so-called capitalist republicanism, still manages to get regular folks killed while a few benefit with regard to relative material luxuries...