UEFA Euro 2024: England Tournament Thread [R]

Discussion in 'England' started by BarryfromEastenders, Apr 24, 2024.

  1. MrSnrub

    MrSnrub Member+

    Oct 7, 2018
    If England won people would look back on the tournament extremely fondly - last minute bicycle kicks, penalty shoot out wins....

    The problem is its very, very difficult to see England continuing the streak of luck given there has been an absence of management all tournament. It's not even that we've been "conservative" in style particularly, there's just been an almost complete absence of decision making from the management to even begin to address our issues that shows no signs of changing and that makes it very difficult to imagine we will get over the line in the next two games. If we somehow did luck out for two more games though, no doubt the tournament would be remembered very well. Portugal fans are very happy with their Euro 2016 win which was a similarly bad tournament and they were terrible basically all the way through it also, with almost all their games dreary.
     
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  2. TorontoCalabria

    Fiorentina
    Italy
    Sep 12, 2018
    The thing is though Portugal beat Croatia before penalties and then beat France before penalties.
    So they beat the 2018 world cup finalists clean without conceding. England conceded to Slovakia and the Swiss first and found wonder goals. Yes they can find a way from here on out but the idea that Portugal were awful and won anyways is a but of a myth. They only conceded once in the knockouts and that was after 2minutes to Poland in what was their one poor match. They smashed Wales quit emphatically. They then when on to win the National League to remove all doubt that they were as a squad very hard to beat.

    Can England write the story to be similar over the next two games and then we will look aka on the Slovakia and Swiss games as moments where they would not break? Absolutely but that would mean they beat the Dutch 1-0 before penalties and the same with Spain they find a goal in extra time while keeping a clean sheet. If they do this I think people will think they were axially fantastic and that would be fair enough but that is what Portugal did.

    I struggle for an example of a team playing awful and winning a Euros or World Cup.
    It would be better for fans to hope for their team to just play better but don't get me wrong I get the meaning of yes you can close out the tournament by being stubborn and hanging on with thin margins but that is not the same as playing poor it's actually the opposite.
     
  3. MrSnrub

    MrSnrub Member+

    Oct 7, 2018
    #6328 MrSnrub, Jul 10, 2024
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2024
    This is very revisionist. Portugal were pretty woeful all tournament. Portugal scraped through a on paper pretty straightforward group stage in 3rd place, having drawn all 3 matches.

    Then they played one of the worst knock out games you'll ever watch against Croatia were I believe the first shot on target in the match was the goal in the last minute of extra time. You can't claim that because Croatia did well in another tournament 2 years later under a different manager it was actually a great win - it was awful. I was actually there - legitimately one of the worst games I've ever seen.

    Then they had a similarly dreary game against a mediocre Poland side, scraping by on penalties having probably been the poorer team.

    They did beat a limited Wales side with a relative degree of comfort though not exactly a great game. To say they "smashed them emphatically" does a lot of heavy lifting for a stodgy 2-0 win where they broke through second half with a set piece.

    Then they shithoused a 1-0 win against France, who did not have a bunch of players they would have 2 years later, especially lacking Mbappe who they changed their style to fit around, so comparing them to their 2018 side is pointless anyway.
     
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  4. RobTheFool

    RobTheFool Member+

    Apr 19, 2008
    London, England
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    The fact Trippier is starting at LB/LWB again just shows how Southgate still hasn't learned. I keep seeing that Einstein quote about how insanity is trying the same thing over and over and wondering why it doesn't work and that couldn't be more true.

    I'm kinda half in with this tournament, I'm not particularly excited and even if we won I don't think I'd be as happy as I would've been say 2/4 years ago when we were actually capable of putting in decent performances.
     
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  5. Fullerov

    Fullerov Member

    Bristol Rovers
    Nov 30, 2004
    Club:
    Bristol Rovers FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Does it not just suggest that Shaw won't be able to do a full game and is likely to come off the bench?
     
  6. Fireburn47

    Fireburn47 Member+

    West Ham United
    England
    Nov 5, 2021
    Yes. It’s fitness concerns rather than Tactics guiding that decision.
     
  7. MrSnrub

    MrSnrub Member+

    Oct 7, 2018
    This would not be so terrible if Southgate was willing to actually use the bench before the game has nearly ended anyway. The only way we'll see Shaw for Trippier before the 70th minute at earliest is if England are losing, and there'd be a decent chance not even then.

    Even then the wisdom of our plan giving the entire responsibility of attacking down the left wing to a guy who's repeatedly shown he's incapable of providing even the basics of a threat on the left seems bizarre at best.
     
  8. Fireburn47

    Fireburn47 Member+

    West Ham United
    England
    Nov 5, 2021
    Let’s hope for once he surprises us.

    Even through I’m not sure I’d rate our chances against Spain if we sneak past the Dutch.
     
  9. Fullerov

    Fullerov Member

    Bristol Rovers
    Nov 30, 2004
    Club:
    Bristol Rovers FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    I don't think it's a great situation to be in, but if it is fitness issues, I guess I'd rather have Shaw closing the game.
     
  10. RobTheFool

    RobTheFool Member+

    Apr 19, 2008
    London, England
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Yes, but why not have Saka as LWB then? That is pure tactics. Why has he played the same 10 players in each game? That's poor tactics too IMO especially with two lots of 120 minutes in the last games, and the quality in depth we had
     
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  11. TorontoCalabria

    Fiorentina
    Italy
    Sep 12, 2018
    #6336 TorontoCalabria, Jul 10, 2024
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2024
    I don't count the group stage you can be poor in the group stage and play well in the knockouts.
    They were not an offensive team but they only allowed 1 goal in 4 knockout games and always found their goal when it mattered. Pepe put on a clinic.

    The reality is they beat Croatia France Wales without conceding they were fortunate to survive Poland but one of those in a tournament is fine they still found their equalizer on a very nice play.
    Their goals were all of a decent quality as well they did not rely on corner kicks own goals or penalties they found the quality when it mattered and again conceded 1 in 4 matches. France were the favourites and while they were unlucky to hit the post late on that is on Gignac he should have finished the match there. Was it a fantastic performance all the way through no but this was a France that beat world champions Germany 2-0 in the other semi final. Simply no one was beating Portugal that tournament they just refused to break and found a win against two top sides when it mattered. Whatever you think of that Wales side they beat Belgium 3-1 and could not get a sniff on goal with Portugal who disposed of them cleanly. I can't accept the notion that Portugal were bad and won it's just not true. Yes the Croatia game was ugly but I think people decided at that point that Portugal were lucky and never gave them credit afterwards if you watched those games closely they were very good as a unit. I think because of the third place rule being new it also rubbed a lot of fans the wrong way but we have to remember Portugal were aware they only needed a draw in their third game to go through if they needed a win they would have played differently and likely finished second.
     
  12. horrisengleton

    horrisengleton Member+

    Arsenal
    England
    Jul 18, 2023
    Valencia, Spain
    Wales were missing their best midfielder, Ramsey, and their best defender, Davies, through suspension in that game.
     
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  13. TorontoCalabria

    Fiorentina
    Italy
    Sep 12, 2018
    them's the breaks. Portugal were missing Ronaldo in the final and still won clean 1-0 before penalties preventing France from scoring after they scored 9 in the previous 3 knock out matches. you can be lucky in a match or 2 when you go undefeated in 7 matches and take out the favourites/hosts and Croatia without conceding you played well.
     
  14. MrSnrub

    MrSnrub Member+

    Oct 7, 2018
    I think your posts are basically proving my point that if England actually did somehow win the next two games, then it would become a great tournament win and suddenly the past games would be revised. Winning is basically all that matters in the end.
     
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  15. horrisengleton

    horrisengleton Member+

    Arsenal
    England
    Jul 18, 2023
    Valencia, Spain
    It's not the same with Wales. They can't replace the loss of quality players as well as big teams can. The gap between Ramsey, a Champions League standard player at that time, and Davies, a very good Premier League player, and their replacements is huge. Ramsey's understudy was Joe Ledley, a middle of the road Championship player, while Davies' understudy was James Collins, who was essentially a year off retirement and could barely run.

    The entire Welsh team was a basically an EFL side with smatterings of top level quality in their first XI, and if you take half of that quality away it basically just becomes a middling Championship side with Bale.

    Your point of referencing Wales is that it was ostensibly a good win for Portugal but it was a team that had its quality vastly diminished.
     
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  16. TorontoCalabria

    Fiorentina
    Italy
    Sep 12, 2018
    #6341 TorontoCalabria, Jul 10, 2024
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2024
    I agree but they will need two good performances to get past Netherlands and Spain.
    If England beat Spain in the finals the way Portugal beat France and say Jude hits the strike Eder` hit then I don't anyone would be saying shit and they will be crazy to in my opinion.

    but you have to understand I have never once said England have been bad. i think they have been good just not great so far. they are undefeated and have proven very hard to break down. have they been slightly worse than Portugal were up to this point? For me yes because they conceded first to Slovakia and then again to the Swiss so while they have been good defensively they have not been great but they found their goals. If they manage to keep a clean sheet today and find a goal late or in extra time that would be awesome.

    when I say they can't play poor and win that's what I mean. a clean sheet and a late goal is not playing poor that's not easy to do especially against Spain and the Dutch. something like that would get them through. conceding first and only scoring once likely won't be enough here. but we will see. I think they may have two good performances in them and yes if they do the rest of the tournament will be retconned as it should because the facts will be no one could beat them and that's the aim of the game. It will all make sense once it's said and done but people always rush to their takes and then never pivot out of pride or whatnot. If they are as bad as some have said they won't survive today.
     
  17. TorontoCalabria

    Fiorentina
    Italy
    Sep 12, 2018
    Portugal were fortunate Wales was not at 100% but we can't hold this against them. I understand your point but my counter point was Portugal had things go against them as well so it all becomes a wash they beat who was in front of them.

    The reality is teams that survive to the end do have depth and Portugals depth is something they earned. This is why miracle teams almost never win. This is why the idea that you can win on luck is false. Luck runs out always for everyone. You have to be good to get to the finish line.
     
  18. BarryfromEastenders

    Staff Member

    Jul 6, 2008
    Hours before our tournament semi-final and we are stuck in what seems to be a continuous conversation surrounding people’s perceptions of where specific tournament run’s rank.
    [​IMG]
     
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  19. MrSnrub

    MrSnrub Member+

    Oct 7, 2018
    Ok, I think we just have different definitions of playing poor. I would say England have largely been very poor in the tournament so far. The Slovakia game was desperately poor and rescued by the closest thing to divine intervention you'll see on a football pitch. The Swiss game was perhaps more uninspired than poor, so an improvement in some respects.

    Still my wider point was that if England won the games will eventually be lost to time. The fact that Slovakia was actually an Iceland-esque performance would be secondary to the Bellingham overhead kick.

    But this is all secondary, its very, very difficult to see England winning the tournament given Southgate seems all in on this team, and doesn't even change it when its not working. But who knows, maybe today it will all magically click in spite of all signs and past experience.
     
  20. TorontoCalabria

    Fiorentina
    Italy
    Sep 12, 2018
    Because Bellingham found the kick and then they found a winner before pks I have to move the performance from very very bad to decent. Yes for 96 minutes they were awful. Against the Swiss they were again decent first half was largely good second half was poor for 25 minutes and the goal was world class. Extra time was solid enough. Overall finding a way to escape their own poor form means they have been good but not great. they've never been embarrassed or sliced open barely clinging on. offensively they have been largely poor for sure but again those 3 goals are worth something.

    Can they play at that same level and win today and sunday? no I don't think so. maybe it's the wrong word to say they have been good but they have been not bad in that limbo between good and bad. they are well below expectations certainly as we know they can and have played much better under Southgate. Let's see how they go. If they can muster a good or even great performance today it will put the others in proper context. if they look crap and lose in 90 the same stands. meaning it is somewhat hard to rate them thus far.
     
  21. BarryfromEastenders

    Staff Member

    Jul 6, 2008
  22. RobTheFool

    RobTheFool Member+

    Apr 19, 2008
    London, England
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Who knows, a broken clock is right twice a day.

    It may help us that Netherlands will actually be the first team we.play that doesn't sit back. We really struggle against low block sides. But yeah I'm not expecting much
     
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  23. BarryfromEastenders

    Staff Member

    Jul 6, 2008
     
  24. horrisengleton

    horrisengleton Member+

    Arsenal
    England
    Jul 18, 2023
    Valencia, Spain
    #6349 horrisengleton, Jul 10, 2024
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2024

    Why does Merson have to do this every single time? The man's a complete embarrassment to the rest of us.

    The David James quote might very well be fake though. Can't find any actual evidence of him saying this other than this singular tweet.
     
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  25. Fullerov

    Fullerov Member

    Bristol Rovers
    Nov 30, 2004
    Club:
    Bristol Rovers FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Agreed. Merson basically barely understands football imo. The fact that he played it to a high level, doesn't preclude the other statement being true.
     
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