UEFA Competitions: Referee discussions 2024-2025 [Rs]

Discussion in 'Referee' started by feyenoordsoccerfan, Aug 6, 2024.

  1. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #601 MassachusettsRef, May 8, 2025
    Last edited: May 8, 2025
    Leaving aside whether this should be relevant, I just don't think it's true. On the initial broadcast cam it looks like the shot is aimed at the far right post and the deflection makes it head toward the lower left. Watch Raya. He starts to commit to his far post and then adjusts. He is affected by the deflection.

    I get what you're saying, but I just think this is a weird hill for people to die on. I think the only reason people even think this is trifling is because there are no other PSG attackers in the vicinity to make an immediate appeal. The shooter seems to think it was deflected, but that's it. If this had happened in a more crowded area or a more central location, I am very confident you would have seen immediate appeals for handball and then the narrative would be much different. There are probably only 2 players on the field that could be sure it hit the hand--Raya and Lewis-Skelly (the other two centrally located Arsenal defenders might have seen it too, but being behind Lewis-Skelly the angle might be deceptive). That doesn't mean it's not a penalty, though.
     
  2. soccerref69420

    soccerref69420 Member+

    President of the Antonio Miguel Mateu Lahoz fan cub
    Mar 14, 2020
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea DPR
    Does anyone remember when there was that handball that they had to use the force detector in the ball to determine it had hit the hand? I think it was euro 2024
     
  3. Twotone Jones

    Twotone Jones Member

    United States
    Apr 12, 2023
    The last few CL matchdays have each had some microscopic VAR decisions.

    -Julian Alvarez double-touch penalty
    -Merino's goal ruled out for offside
    -Mikhitaryan's goal ruled out for offside
    -Timber holding Skelia in the PA and not being sent down
    -Arsenal handball yesterday

    I know VAR wasn't designed to eliminate controversial decisions but I'll be damned if if doesn't feel like there is MORE controversy in the VAR-era right now.
     
  4. Tigerpunk

    Tigerpunk Member+

    Jun 17, 2004
    I for one have been very consistent. If the play is ball to hand, and the player is not *unnaturally* or *deliberately* making himself bigger, then it should not be a penalty unless the player had time to move his hand out of the way.

    Right now, we demand that defenders play in an unnatural position, with their arms behind their back, and when that is not possible (as it wasn't possible here because of the direction that MSW is running), then it's just a game of roulette. If the ball happens to hit their hand, it's a penalty, regardless of intent.

    And look, I for one understand that this is not how the game is called today. I accept that this was a correctly decided var penalty under the way the game is (insanely, in my view) reffed today.

    We've had this argument in the past and you've in the past provided The false choice between the current rules and a parade of 0-0 games. Well I think this is a false choice, I'd actually rather zero zero than games decided by what to me continues to look like complete unadulterated luck.
     
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  5. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    And you think there would be consensus on the idea that this is neither unnaturally or deliberately bigger?

    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/u...ns-2024-2025-rs.2132014/page-24#post-42961851

    And I understand (or at least can anticipate) all the arguments about kinesiology. It's not a question of you being right and me or anyone else being wrong. It's a question of whether or not such a standard would always (or at least nearly always) get the same result. You seem certain this is neither unnatural nor deliberate. I am certain there are high-level referees who would be equally confident in the other direction.

    I... have?
     
  6. SouthRef

    SouthRef Member+

    Jun 10, 2006
    USA
    Club:
    Rangers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think that's reasonable and I don't think this is a hill to die on, so to speak. I wouldn't go so far as to say that the decision should depend on the reaction of defenders either; rather, it's just my impression of the degree of contact. I saw it in real time and when it was replayed but haven't gone back and watched it since. The more I watch it the more I can probably convince myself it's an offense but that might be part of the issue as well.

    Like some people said 10 years ago, for whatever problems VAR solved, it created more.
     
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  7. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Mariani with one of the worst PK decisions rightly overturned by VAR in stoppage time in Norway.
     
  8. StarTime

    StarTime Member+

    United States
    Oct 18, 2020
    I’ll throw my opinion in that I’m absolutely flabbergasted that anyone has any issue or argument against the Arsenal handball at all. It’s about the most blatant handball we’ve seen all season. His arm is almost a kilometer away from his body. Just insanity to me.
     
  9. ubelmann

    ubelmann New Member

    Seattle Sounders
    United States
    Jun 16, 2017
    Personally, I guess I tend to think that you're ultimately going to be drawing lines one way or another -- even in the MLS approach, someone is mentally drawing lines.

    I'd rather not change the offside law, which ultimately doesn't seem to be problematic in any other way, and I would move to codify what "clear and obvious" means for offside. I would say that we default to the call on the field and agree that there is some uncertainty in the exact frame that we are choosing to use to determine offside. Since there uncertainty in which frame we choose, the call should need evidence from that frame and one adjacent frame to be overturned.

    Say the call on the field is offside. To overturn, you should be onside in the frame that they use now AND the frame after.

    Say the call on the field is onside. To overturn, you should be offside on the frame they use now AND the frame before.

    With SAOT you should be able to check this reasonably quickly, and arguably you could dispense with a lot of reviews more quickly because you can review the adjacent frame first and that is generally going to immediately lead to the review upholding the call on the field.
     
  10. waitforit

    waitforit Member+

    Dec 3, 2010
    Valcea
    Club:
    FC Steaua Bucuresti
    Nat'l Team:
    Romania
    #610 waitforit, May 12, 2025
    Last edited: May 12, 2025
  11. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    With a Romanian official getting the CL Final, it's pretty remarkable and impressive how UEFA has spread out the CL Final appointments this century amongst the European countries.

    It's much easier to point out the countries that have not had a CL Final referee this century.

    Just off the top of my head the countries that haven't had a CL Final referee are:

    Belgium
    Austria
    Czech Republic
    Bulgaria
    Belarus
    Ukraine
    Russia
    Sweden
    Finland
    Croatia
    Bosnia
    Greece
    Macedonia
    Moldova
    Baltic states

    I'm curious of the countries above which one is likely to get a CL Final official.

    It's pretty remarkable that for as successful as the Croatian national team is, compared to the other ex-YU states, how poor they have been in developing an elite official.

    Slovenia and Serbia have been way more successful in producing elite UEFA officials than Croatia yet Croatia laps them in the actual playing of football.

    No whistle at a World Cup or European Championship and, to my knowledge not even a CL knockout appointment assignment.

    I think part of it was they stuck with Ivan Bebek for so long and he just never managed to break through.
     
  12. Mikael_Referee

    Mikael_Referee Member+

    Jun 16, 2019
    England
    Croatia also had Marijo Strahonja (fell into demerit after messing up an important CL game in 2013, Marseille-Dortmund) and now Duje Strukan who very (very) likely cost himself a Champions League debut in the new Swiss system with a bad performance in a clubs qualification match in Poland last summer. For what it is worth, two of the best officials in women's football (Rodjak-Karsic and Martincic) are Croat and together they will handle the Women's CL final this season.
     
  13. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    The most famous and memorable moment of Bebek's (and maybe Croat international officiating) international career is when Busacca told him to shut-up over the comms at Euro 2008 when Bebek was a 4th official for Busacca.

    Bebek: "There is a big storm in the city."

    Busacca: "It's not my problem. Shut-up."

     
  14. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I know you know this and weren't saying anything otherwise, but both of these countries had CL-Final level referees, the timing and circumstances just didn't work out for whatever reason. Twice, in the case of Sweden, in fact.

    You also do have to ask the question about where Karasev would have gone if not for the war. I'm not sure he would have done a CL Final, but he was on the trajectory to be in the discussion and almost certainly would have done at least one of the other finals.
     
  15. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Zwayer is on EL Final and Peljto on Conference League, by the way.

    Interesting that Letexier didn't factor in any of the final 15 matches; I wonder what that says about how his last performance was received internally and whether or not Zwayer was an adjustment from a plan given Zwayer is the only referee working twice across those matches.

    Peljto's rise is noteworthy. I don't think the Conference League final guarantees a WC spot or a certain future in UEFA, but it's certainly better than not getting it. Seems like he has quickly shot past a few others in UEFA's eyes, though that could be simply confined to recent performance and not long-term.
     
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  16. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The fourth officials seem particularly interesting...

    Mariani is with Zwayer
    Meler is with Peljto
    Pinheiro is with Kovacs

    I thought Meler was very much out of favor so a bit weird to see him given that spot. Mariani is political, surely (why not Siebert?). And Pinheiro is just interesting; don't think of him as CL Final level at all so if Kovacs got hurt...

    By the way, what do you think Hategan is thinking right now?
     
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  17. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    Absolutely.

    De Bleeckere should have done one and it has been discussed ad nauseum on here of why he never got a CL Final.

    Probably the greatest mystery and injustice in UEFA officiating.

    I'm pretty sure Frisk was going to get the Final in 2005 or 2006, but Mourinho and his toxicity got in the way which led to death threats which led to him retiring.

    Peter Fröjdfeldt was also on the verge, but he ended up getting a UEFA/Europa League Final instead.

    Jonass Eriksson was also definitely good enough, but he just didn't stay at the elite level long enough to get it.
     
  18. Mikael_Referee

    Mikael_Referee Member+

    Jun 16, 2019
    England
    #618 Mikael_Referee, May 12, 2025
    Last edited: May 12, 2025
    Meler: an 'apology' to him, having been quite excluded for the whole season since he gave a perfectly supportable penalty in Brugge-Atalanta

    Mariani: my theory is that this the result of political wrangling about who the main referee of this match was going to be, potentially hinting at a somewhat-late change

    Pinheiro: I would guess that Oliver was slated for this but, if you cast your mind back, the Englishman was the fourth man for the Mourinho EL where the benches got totally out of hand so UEFA selected a (much less experienced) guy to control and keep in check both technical areas
     
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  19. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    Am I the only that thinks it's certainly a much greater possibility than before that Oliver never gets a CL Final?

    He's been now an elite UEFA official for what 8 years? Guys have been elite officials for less have gotten before him (obviously a huge part of that is English teams being in the Final so often).

    Let's say in the next two years you get an English team in the Final.

    This should have been the year he got it.

    I don't think he even has many semi-final appointments under his belt (if any?).
     
  20. StarTime

    StarTime Member+

    United States
    Oct 18, 2020
    Furthermore, Sandro Scharer gets the Nations League Final.
     
  21. StarTime

    StarTime Member+

    United States
    Oct 18, 2020
    Definitely seems like Peljto has risen ahead of other referees in his cohort, like Meler, Nyberg, Eskas, arguably Scharer etc.
     
  22. weka

    weka Member+

    Dec 9, 2011
    Scharer and Nyberg is surprising.
     
  23. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    For what it's worth, I wasn't necessarily including those names. Nyberg has been getting big matches. Scharer, too, and he's got a final this year.

    I think my argument would be that Peljto wasn't even in what I would call the Letexier-Nyberg-Scharer-Meler cohort. All four went to EURO 24; Peljto didn't. I think all four were serious WC candidates from the jump; Peljto wasn't.

    But now he's seemed to pass guys like Kruzliak and Jovanovic and Grinfeeld (names he was certainly behind about a year ago) and is on par with some of that cohort mentioned above. I would think behind Letexier but seemingly in the discussion with the others. Like I said, I don't think this one appointment puts him above the others for WC26 and big CL matches next year, but it at least puts him in the discussion with those names. Not to mention some names from the bigger nations, like Siebert, Gözübüyük, Bastien and the Spaniards. Hell, at this point he might be seen as at the level of Makkelie (though that says as much about Makkelie as it does about him). But things can change quickly.
     
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  24. StarTime

    StarTime Member+

    United States
    Oct 18, 2020
    It’s worth again highlighting how packed the race for the last few UEFA spots at the 2026 WC is. Assuming 12 referees plus 1 support as previously reported, we have:

    7 referees are more-or-less locks: Oliver, Vincic, Marciniak, Turpin, Letexier, Zwayer, and Kovacs.

    That leaves 5 spots (plus a support slot) to divvy up among the following referees:

    - an Italian (Mariani?)
    - a Spaniard (Sanchez Martinez?)
    - Peljto
    - Taylor
    - Makkelie
    - Eskas
    - Scharer
    - Nyberg
    - Meler

    (Plus you have some referees who seem solidly on the outside looking in, like Kruzliak and Gozoboyuk).

    Even if you take out Taylor and Makkelie, who have been out of favor, one of these refs is going as a Support, and one more isn’t going at all.
     
  25. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    There will be a Spanish referee. I'm 99% sure that there will be an Italian referee.

    Has there ever been a World Cup (at least from 1970 onwards) where you didn't have a Spanish or Italian official?

    Suddenly you're not going to have one in a 48 team World Cup? Keep in mind that FIFA/UEFA pulled out much greater stops to get an Italian or Spanish referee at previous World Cups (2006) where the referees selected genuinely didn't have the requisite experience necessary to go.

    That gives you 9 with three slots left

    I'm pretty sure Taylor will go. That's 10.

    Makkelie should go as well as it would be weird to not have a Dutch official.

    So you're down to 1 spot amongst the rest.
     

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