Who the hell even knows anymore. It's seemingly becoming a fruitless endeavor to even make assumptions about calls or learning from these leagues given how leagues and competitions are basically making up their own rules. I believe both are fouls and PKs. How the hell are we supposed to learn to improve as referees when you watch this nearly identical challenge happen in EPL and Euros and one league not only no-calls it but then the PGMOL defends it as correct, then the other competition calls it a PK? To get existential, as sub-professional referees, how are we even supposed to know how good we actually are performing as a referee when an analysis of your performance can completely change depending on who is doing the analyzing?
Surprised I haven't seen this discussed elsewhere (unless I'm missing it): https://reddit.com/r/soccer/s/ikI5I5qGXt Ronaldo goes sliding into the prone keeper's head with both feet studs up. Force is ultimately somewhat minimal, and he does seem to at least mostly miss any contact with the head...but still, to me this move is so inherently dangerous it has to be a red.
I do get what you're saying about this. It gets frustrating when we all know if we call something differently (and I'd say correctly in this case), we will get the cries of "But that's not how it works on TV!!". This is something where you have to just go with what you can control. Follow the guidance of USSF, your local association, and anyone working with you locally. We can't control what the Premier League or UEFA does or doesn't do. Control what you can control, and try hard to not get too riled up about anything we see on TV.
For what it's worth, I think it's a pretty straightforward yellow card. I think PRO got way over its skis last season when it said that incident like this were automatic red cards (note that edict seemed to quietly go away) and it may be corrupting our views on such plays a little. Unless there's some clear intent or the play is incredibly late (or there's just some freak result) this has always been a yellow card. Ronaldo whiffs and then slips as he's trying to score a goal. His boots end up in the face of the keeper, who is diving head-first to prevent a goal. Just from a spirit of the laws or common sense perspective, it seems like one big accident with a "kind of bad" result versus something malicious with a really bad result. And I think it all fits the definition of reckless, anyway.
I don't care about players/coaches/fans relating things happening in their game to what they see happens on TV. For me, it's specifically using the decisions we see on TV to recognize fouls, non-fouls, and YC/RC incidents because analyzing broadcasts is the only real way to learn (our "trainings" also jut analyze clips as well). So when you try to watch a game and see two nearly identical situations that one league penalizes and one doesn't, you start to wonder if you are calling things correctly or not. I do know from this forum that we should basically ignore most things EPL referees do, but on some weekends I'll go to the EPL schedule and check the yellow card offenses and watch them on streams since EPL is the most stream-finding-friendly soccer league. I catalog those and implement them in my games which is why my YC count is pretty high. And then get told by an assessor or assessor-type that while my caution may have been right by the book, it was too harsh for the level
I think it’s closer to red than you do, but (even as a former GK) I don’t have a problem with yellow here. My remark was more being cute, as I don’t recall seeing R get a call against him that he didn’t complain about.
That is a really generous interpretation of what Ronaldo did here. You're seeing the two-studs-up lunge here as a player simply slipping? To me it's obvious that Ronaldo is lunging in with both feet, completely deliberately, as a desperate attempt to play the ball, in a situation where it's obvious that contact is likely with a diving keeper. In the slow motion, it's really clear that Ronaldo is kicking with the left leg, rather than it simply slipping out from under him. He makes studs-to-chest contact with one foot, and comes within inches of forceful studs-to-face contact with the other foot. "Fouling someone while making a desperate play on the ball" is reckless in many circumstances, but when you've got two lunging feet, studs into the chest, and a forceful kick inches from someone's face, I don't know how that's not endangering the safety of the opponent.
Probably not much use debating this because we're coming at this from polar opposite perspectives. I see absolutely nothing resembling a "two-studs-up lunge." And I absolutely do see the left foot giving way on the turf first. In fact, I think Ronaldo takes evasive action with his left foot (what you describe as "kicking") to ensure it goes above the head--and not into the face--of the goalkeeper. Ultimately, it's the right leg that is more problematic even though it's closer to the floor. Because you're in the rare situation where a player's head is on the ground and also diving toward the ball. The face isn't six feet in the air. Goalkeeper's don't believe they can (and shouldn't have the right to) just dive face first at balls on the floor in OGSO situations and expect no one to try to contest them. We are tasked with adjudicating such situations and coming up with the correct outcome. I just don't think anyone outside a subsection of the referee community (or partisan Slovakian fans) expects this to be a red card.
I won't debate the rest, as we're just seeing different things from the same clip. But for what it's worth (usually very little), the commentary on this play online seems pretty unanimous across the board that Ronaldo was lucky not to get a red there. You can even check the comments of the video I linked. Not saying that the opinion of random fans carries much weight, but I do disagree with your assertion that nobody expects a red card here.
Fair enough. I almost added "committed anti-Ronaldo partisans" because I know how intense (and juvenile... and ubiquitous... and unnecessary) the online Messi v Ronaldo debate can be. I suspect that fuels a lot of analysis--either way--on Reddit. If you take Ronaldo out of it, I would stand by the assertion that a vast majority of most casual observers would expect a yellow for this or something like it. But I also concede that knowing that for sure is impossible.
Interesting one in Latvia/Wales. Di Paolo (ITA) sends this down as an OFR for SFP/VC for Ocenáš (SVK) but he sticks with his original decision. @Mikael_Referee do you have a longer clip with the OFR by chance? https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/16g66ra/janis_ikaunieks_latvia_yellow_card_vs_wales/
I don't see a bright future in UEFA for Ocenas then, based on this very limited input. Wow. EDIT: and think of some of the high-profile recent (and deserved) SFP reds that Wales has got in major competitions. Then to have this NOT given against you. Any way to listen into Cardiff sports radio?
I had to go into the Law 5 blog list to figure out who he is. And I'd agree not a great sign for the future.
UCL MD1 Milan : Newcastle - SANCHEZ (ESP) PSG : Dortmund - GIL MANZANO (ESP) Young Boys : Leipzig - JORGJI (ALB) Feyenoord : Celtic - PELJTO (BIH) Lazio : Atletico Madrid - VINCIC (SVN) Manchester City : Red Star Belgrade - PINHEIRO (POR) Barcelona : Royal Antwerp - PETRESCU (ROU) Shakhthar Donetsk : Porto - MASSA (ITA) Hategan is AVAR for Petrescu. I imagine there's a scenario where you could have three active Romanian referees in the UCL, which is quite the rennaissance given where that country was with refereeing for about 20 years. Jorgji is a name ethat sort of comes out of nowhere.
Galatasary : Kobenhavn - KABAKOV (BUL) Real Madrid : Union Berlin - ESKAS (NOR) Bayern : Manchester United - NYBERG (SWE) Sevilla : Lens - STIELER (GER) Arsenal : PSV - ZWAYER (GER) Braga : Napoli - GOZUBUYUK (NED) Real Sociedad : Inter - OLIVER (ENG) Benfica : Salzburg - MELER (TUR) Nyberg's eclipsing of Ekberg seems to be complete. Head of CONCACAF refereeing is the assessor for Eskas, by the way.
Massive decision from the Albanian referee UCL debutant Jorgji to stick with his no penalty decision after VAR sends it down to keep things level at 1-1. Just wish the mechanics were cleaner. After he left VAR area, he whistled once while doing the VAR review signal then pointed to the point to the spot. Everyone thought it was a penalty but actually a GK.
Not. MD1 and MD2 assignments are made in tandem. And the top referees only work 3-4 matchdays anyway.
Anyone see the over turn via an OFR for the VC card that Oliver gave in the Sociedad vs. Inter match? It's at 5:45 in the video. The replay isn't great, but there is clearly a stamping motion by the Inter player. Was it overturned because he didn't actually make contact? He just stamped the ground? He tried to stamp him, but he missed? I'm just not following.
So long as this video stays up, I think it shows the justification for the overturn. The first angle you see is key: https://streamin.me/v/1c7136ee He never stamps toward the player. He's pulling his leg away after it gets tangled. Does he make sure the leg rattles around a little as he pulls it out? Probably. It's honestly hard to say how much the prone player is holding him a little versus how much he's leaving some in to get a point across (at least a little of each, for sure). But it is clear there's no actual stamping motion toward the prone player, which is probably what Oliver thought he say (and what I thought happened from the initial broadcast angle). I don't have violent conduct. And I think I also clearly don't have violent conduct. This feels like a good intervention to me. What as the result? Did this become a yellow or nothing?
The Bayern one is so obviously a handball penalty that it's amazing he even brings it up here. It's actually amazing the AR didn't flag it initially, too, and that it took the VAR to get the correct result. 5:45: The PSG one is a lot more debatable. Sule was going to ground to make a block and the arm was about to be his bracing arm but it hadn't yet touched the floor. I don't think anything is deliberate or unnatural here and I actually lean very strongly toward no penalty. It's not supposed to be a component but the fact that it's a wasted ball that is probably going out for a goal kick kind of reinforces my conclusion. That said, the contact is so clear and you have a Spanish referee, so... 5:45, also:
Meler is taking over for Cakir as Turkey's #1 and I think you'll see him next year at EUROs. Very interesting start with two penalties. The first, at 0:43, is the type of play we've talked about semi-regularly of late. The second, at 1:55, is pretty obvious and requires a red card, too. Both well done: