UEFA Competitions 2023-2024 Referee Discussions [Rs]

Discussion in 'Referee' started by MassachusettsRef, Jun 23, 2023.

  1. AlextheRef

    AlextheRef Member

    Jun 29, 2009
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    FWIW more and more training has been delivered throughout this calendar year about just how dangerous studs to the achilles are. When you combine how late the challenge is, where the point of contact is, the force transferred into the achilles, it's hard to say the tacvkle doesn't endanger the safety of the opponent. I assume this is an expected red card, including in MLS regular season games.
     
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  2. In the Sevilla-PSV match a red card was given that turned the match upside down, Sevilla were leading 2-0 and ended with a 2-3 defeat.
    A PSV attacker was hit by the body of the defending player in a way you could describe as obstruction, causing the attacker to fall.
    The red card was in my eyes undeserved. When he attacked the PSV player his foot got stuck in the pitch, which made his body charge into the PSV player. He injured himself when his foot got stuck.
    So he received a second yellow, thus a red card.
    Is this still a case of second yellow, and if not could the VAR intervene with the red card given to be rescinded.
     
  3. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I wanted to call this out because this is a really horrible example. Statistically its meaningless. You've shown that pre VAR there was 1 red card for abusive language in 4000 matches, and then using an example of there being 1 in the 1900 matches since VAR. So? What if there's not another one for another 3000 matches? Then under VAR there will have been 1 in 4900 matches, or a longer period than your pre-VAR example.

    And even if there is a second one, its statistical noise. Its like the Marketing Director at an old job that came down and told us we had to change the website back from the change we made that morning because we weren't getting as many leads today as we had been. When we asked how many leads we got versus how many we normally got she said we only got 2 that day, but normally we get 3.

    If we're getting 4, 5, or 10 red cards for this in a similar time, then there's a point to be made. But not before that.
     
  4. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I urge anyone reading this to go watch the video. This just isn’t an accurate description of what happened. One of the clearest yellow cards for a silly and late challenge I’ve ever seen. No one—literally no one—complained.
     
  5. USSF REF

    USSF REF Guest

    Same thing we've been saying all day... no matter if the ref is right, you'll do get unhappy people. But now they at least can blame VAR for not intervening in something they aren't empowered to check...
     
  6. We obviously see different things. You didnot see his right foot dig into the pitch, causing a visible tear in the grass, locking his foot, making his body out of control?
     
  7. I'm Dutch, the decision was favourable for us, so not complaining.
    Second it was a question if it is possible for the VAR to intervene, given it's a red card. From your response I get the answer to my question is no.
     
  8. El Rayo Californiano

    Feb 3, 2014
    Ocampos first yellow card in 63' for dissent, second yellow card in 66' for the foul. In succession in the CBS highlights, starting from around 8:10.

    Sevilla collectively are well inclined to complain about referee decisions, particularly of late. No complaints about the second yellow. Fernando did get sent off at the very end of the match--he had been substituted off earlier so it must have been for something he said to the match officials. That incident is not included in the highlights.
     
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  9. soccerref69420

    soccerref69420 Member+

    President of the Antonio Miguel Mateu Lahoz fan cub
    Mar 14, 2020
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea DPR
    Extremely late, studs somewhat forcefully into the Achilles. Easy SFP red card and would be shambolic if they didn’t send this down especially with recent emphasis on studs to Achilles challenges

    https://dubz.co/v/9sdhh8
    This is a clear yellow card. Not even debatable. And VAR does not review second yellows only straight reds.
     
  10. Tigerpunk

    Tigerpunk Member+

    Jun 17, 2004
    Anyone besides me think that var only overturned Bayern's penalty today because of the blowback yesterday from PSG versus Newcastle?

    1729982971375951959 is not a valid tweet id
     
  11. AlextheRef

    AlextheRef Member

    Jun 29, 2009
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    VAR will not intervene on second yellows because VAR does not intervene on yellow card decisions. Only exception is in cases of mistaken identity.

    But, more to the point, the Sevilla player Ocampo simply lost his head and let the emotions get the best of him. Both referee decisions to caution him are not only supportable, but correct and expected decisions on video.

    Ocampo's first caution in the 63' is for losing his mind and publicly dissenting an AR decision to award the goal kick rather than corner. I should note that the decision was a difficult one and (on slow-mo replay) the ball definitely came off Ocampo's own right shin before crossing the goal line. Difficult decision, referee got it right; Ocampo dissented in a way that it required the referee to deal with it. Caution correct.

    About two minutes later Chelsea has the ball attacking the Sevilla end when Ocampo goes in to a challenge, late, with moderate speed, and trips the Chelsea player (who is trying to avoid contact so the contact is less severe than it otherwise would be). The Chelsea player had passed the ball to a teammate for a 1-2 give-and-go into space and the tackle was both reckless and stopped a promising attack. Second yellow correct.
     
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  12. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I’m not doing this. I stand by what I wrote. There are silly debates and then there is what this would be if it went further. He knew he was off the minute he dove into the challenge and the ball was played behind him. Everything else is irrelevant. It was as clear as day. The video is above now.
     
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  13. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm one of the people who supported the idea of VAR when it started but I will agree with the general feeling here that is has gone far beyond the idea of fixing egregious mistakes and is no longer good for the game.

    That said, I do not support just getting rid of VAR and going back to what was. There needs to be an option to still catch those egregious mistakes, the game has to evolve to fix that problem. But only that problem.
     
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  14. Well, from this angle I'm inclined to follow the opinions I did read now. From another angle it looked like he crashed into Vertessen after his foot locked up in the pitch.
     
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  15. mfw13

    mfw13 Member+

    Jul 19, 2003
    Seattle
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Which is why I started a thread to discuss ways to improve VAR ;)
     
  16. soccerref69420

    soccerref69420 Member+

    President of the Antonio Miguel Mateu Lahoz fan cub
    Mar 14, 2020
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea DPR
    The irony of someone saying “well now that I see a different angle, my initial opinion was wrong” in a thread where we are al trashing VAR?
     
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  17. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Here's the OFR to overturn a Bayern PK given for handball (in stoppage time of a 0-0 match).

    https://dubz.co/v/pd7n5d

    Would this have been an OFR 24 hours earlier? For how strict UEFA has been with an arm raised and extended away from the body as being "unnatural"....

    Don't get me wrong I think the VAR is correct here based on the spirit of how handball should be called but like I said 24 hours earlier I'm not sure we get the same outcome.
     
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  18. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    The R owns the review process. If he doesn’t think the angle or speed is right, it’s his job to ask for what he wants. That doesn’t mean the VAR is off the hook, but the R remains responsible.
     
  19. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think with every LOTG handling standard from the last 30 years, I could make cases both for and against the Newcastle and Kobenhavn cases, respectively.

    This can't be legislated into universal agreement. Different people are going to believe different things about what should be punished. And then different people are going to have different interepretations about whatever language is actually in effect in a given season.

    Yet, we will continue to pretend that specific standards can morph a subjective decision into an objective one.

    I actually wonder, the more I think about it, whether or not we are on a slippery slope to every handball decision needing an OFR as a matter of course. I think even I would have scoffed at that idea a couple years ago. But I'm not so sure right now. It seems like the powers that be have convinced themselves that more expansive VAR is the answer, not narrower VAR.
     
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  20. mfw13

    mfw13 Member+

    Jul 19, 2003
    Seattle
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Understood.....which is why it will be interesting to see if Marciniak is also "punished" by not having a MD6 assignment (or a much less important one).
     
  21. Mikael_Referee

    Mikael_Referee Member+

    Jun 16, 2019
    England
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  22. Thezzaruz

    Thezzaruz Member+

    Jun 20, 2011
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Sweden
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  23. Barciur

    Barciur Member+

    Apr 25, 2010
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Poland
    Kwiatkowski - Marciniak's VAR - has been appointed as VAR for Freiburg - Olympiakos today, in case anyone missed it.
     
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  24. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
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  25. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    We are truly just making it up as we go along now. He's created a barrier to the goal and his hand is in an unnatural position. We're going back to excusing almost anything because of a deflection off the body just because people didn't like a specific result on Tuesday?
     

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