As if the helo crash wasn't bad enough (16 special ops personnel KIA, including eight SEALs), if these guys have been captured, something tells me their fate will be worse than sleep deprivation, humiliation and mistreatment of their religious books. For their sake, I hope they're on the run or dead. "The reconnaissance team was engaged in combat with insurgents on the ground when it called for reinforcements. It was the last contact the U.S. military received from the team."
ugh... it's kinda been lost in all the talk about the iraq insurgency, but afghanistan has been facing a rapidly growing insugency - to me, it's just further evidence that the hawks don't have the foggiest clue as to what they're doing militarily - we strolled into bagdhad, and have been the ones forced to adapt ever since i'm with you grunt, i hope to hell these guys were not captured
Adaptation is a two-way street. To put it mildly, the opposition is having to do a lot of it as well. As for the "hawks" you're refering to, I'm not sure what politics has to do with this. They don't need to know what they're doing "militarily"; they don't call the shots at this level. What they need to know and do is when and where to commit our forces so they do the most good, and not unnecessarily. The military handles the "how".
This is a terrible story. Hopefully they are on the run. Certainly the best prepared guys to weather a few days in the hills of Afghanistan. Afghanistan is definitely starting to come undone. The "Chickenhawks", certainly do bear some responsibility, you know, as much as this administration takes responsibility for any troublesome events.
My first response was a combination of sadness and helplessness. Whatever their circumstances, it appears they are beyond help, hopefully temporarily. And, yes, they are very well trained for this kind of thing, but when surrounded and outgunned, training can only get you so far. It doesn't look good. There does seem to be more activity lately, but overall, I find more positives than negatives in the Afghan action. It is not realistic to think success means exemption from setbacks and moments of tragedy.
If there's a military strategy in place for US forces deployed in Afghanistan (or Iraq, for that matter) that goes beyond "go outside the safe areas and kill the bad guys," I fail to see what it is.
I disagree. I'm no expert on military tactics, but I think the Bushies' plan for Afghanistan has been solid. Use special forces and air power to augment the indigenous forces. I do think Afghanistan could use some of the quarter trillion we've poured down the Iraqi sinkhole/hellhole for reconstruction, but given the resources they've put into A-stan, they done good. IMO, based on the Iraq experience, such a large force would make the Afghanis feel occupied, and fuel the Taliban.
how about protecting the new pipeline? it's no coincidence that all three US "bases" are evenly spread along it
That's why you're "Joe U.S. Citizen" and they're "The Army". Maybe next time they'll run their strategy by you so you can feel more comfortable.
Perhaps you can explain the strategies in place in both theaters then. Neither of them seem to be making any sort of real progress. We've defeated the Taliban in Afghanistan and Saddam is no longer in charge of Iraq. From a military strategy perspective, now what?
This was almost exactly my response when I heard the report. Pretty chilling. I do hope for the best for those guys.
I am not a member of the United States Armed Forces, so I am not privy to that kind of information. I would never claim to know what the strategies or tactics being implemented are. I rest comfortably at night in the knowledge that the young men and women of our Armed Forces are very capable of implementing said unknown strategies and tactics. I just find it unfortunate that people like yourself look at incidents like this as an opportunity to criticize something which you admittedly know nothing about, rather than look at it for what it really is; a tragedy. Believe it or not, there were real human beings on that helecopter and on the ground who left behind loving families to make sure that your office doesn't get blown up by terrorists. Do me a favor. Every time you see an incident like this reported in the news, don't look at it like "Oh my god we have no strategy, what are we doing over there", and take a minute to realize that this is one of the largest losses of life (at 16) that the US has suffered in a war that has been a tremendous success in terms of where Afghanistan is at now compared to where it was at before (not to mention the fact that you and I are much safer at home because of it). You will not see all of the successful missions reported on TV every night. But rest assured, they are happening every night.
Did you see my first reply in this thread? It IS a tragedy. I brought up what I perceive as a lack of strategy in a response to a later post in the thread that mentioned poor planning. And I'm interested in military history and strategy. I like to see how military plans are created and implemented. That was one of the reasons that led me to join the military when I was younger. Finally, I'm not as sure as your are that we really are safe at home right now, which makes the deaths of any soldier who's been sent over there much more tragic.
So our government moves in mysterious ways, its wonders to perform? I've long since gotten tired of the idea that debate about how our armed forces should be used must stop once they are put in action. We're members of democracy and as such we are, in my opinion, honor bound to take an interest in the foreign policy of our government, particularly when that foreign policy involves the use of force. That obligation does not stop once the shooting starts. Furthermore, it's ridiculous that those who switch their brains off, kick back and "rest comfortably" while the conflict is going on feel privileged to characterize those who continue to question as being somehow unpatriotic or unsupportive of the actual men and women in harm's way. There is a categorical difference between being grateful for the sacrifices made by those who choose to serve in the armed forces and unquestioning acceptance of the policies used by one administration or another to make practical use of those sacrifices.
The point I was trying to make is that I am in no position to question whether or not our strategy is successful. What is it being measured against? What history or, more importantly, facts are you and the other armchair military strategists/ analysts drawing upon to say whther or not our strategies are the right ones? I have long since grown tired of the fact that no one ever seems to have anything positive or constructive to say about what we should be doing as an alternative to what we are doing now. I don't think anyone on this board can give any specifics as to exactly what has to be done (i.e. what troops need to move where, what is the specific intelligence telling us about enemy locations, etc). So, for me or anyone else to question the ability of those who's job it is to know these things, is pure folly. You can call this "shutting my brain off", but I challenge you to come up with something constructive (hell, join the Army yourself and change it), rather than sitting here and undermining what these brave soldiers are trying to do.
Undermining? Are you sure you know what that word means? I'll question the strategy any time I please, thank you very much.
Why are you not in a position to question the success, failure or any intermediate outcome of the strategies employed? What's stopping you? Your (or my) questioning might be pertinent or nonsensical, but you're certainly (as I am) in a position to question. You've clearly got access to information via the news and the internet. How does the fact that neither of us privy to staff briefings in Kandahar relieve either of us from our responsibility as citizens to pay critical attention to how our government prosecutes the war (and the war against the Taliban is one I believe is justified, contrary to your apparent assumption)? Aren't those people fighting in our name? Shouldn't we educate ourselves in order to make the best possible decision according to our values? As for me joining the Army, I discussed that with my father, who spent 20 years in that honorable institution and is now buried in Arlington National Cemetary, a long time ago and he encouraged me to do something else (much, I might add, to my relief). Here's how I feel about a more important--to me--decision: https://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5280910&postcount=50 Oh, and as for your suggestion that questioning by sincerely concerned citizens about how the government prosecutes any war "undermines" what soldiers are trying to do (instead of--for two more logical examples--"questions the validity of what the government is trying to do," or "is an attempt to get information as to whether or not the government is effective in what it's trying to do" ), either demonsrate a causal link between my utterances and dead American personnel or shut the ******** up.
Mike's point was that he couldn't understand what the strategy was. (That's strategy, not tactics. Anybody watching the newsreels in late 1944 could've pretty much figured out what our strategy was, without giving any specific tactical info to Berlin.) Of course you're in no position to judge if you can't even fathom what we're trying to do (not saying I agree with Mike here, just making the point). I think this oversimplifies a lot. You said it, not me. If you think joining the Army makes you MORE likely to have input into the decision-making process, then boot camp will be a rude shock. And 'undermining' seems grossly inappropriate.
#1 Second guessing everything we do in either Afghanistan or Iraq without putting out any viable alternative strategies is unproductive, and in my book, undermining what our Soldiers are trying to achieve. If you want to question my knowledge of the English language or get into an argument over semantics, that is just arguing for argument sake as I'm sure you understood what I meant. #2 I don't argue your right to question strategies. I would only ask that you put some thought into what the alternative might be rather than making blanket statements about poor strategy (possobly because of political leanings?).
You want a viable alternative. Bring our troops home and create a crash program for alternative energy production.
At least with regards to Iraq, why isn't leaving a vialbe altnernative strategy? Oh wait, because that will deprive us of the opportunity to argue this 10 years from now.