U.S. Troops Kill Seven Civilians at Iraqi Checkpoint

Terrible. Really gut-wrenching. But that is why you have to stop man. Those guys did everything they could to stop before they fired.

 

from an American perspective, the "that sucks but they should have stopped makes sense." it's not going to help us win the hearts and minds though.

i'm getting concerned that Saddam is going to win that fight by using these tactics. suicide bombings and irregular fighting lead us to tighten the restraints on the Iraqi people. what the Iraqi people see are a bunch of Americans holding guns to their heads and they hear about how Americans blew up a van with 13 women in it at a checkpoint.

i'm getting very nervous about this conflict.

 

Are we sure they weren't killed by an Iraqi Scud?

Seriously, though, on a recent News Report with Jim Lehrer, they were discussing the switch in Iraqi tactics and how it will impact the grunts on the front lines. One dimension they touched on was that these suicide attacks will make our soldiers much less likely to trust Iraqi civilians or to accept surrendering Iraqi troops and this will play into Saddam's attempts to win the propaganda war and the war for Iraqis' hearts and minds.

It looks like they were right, sadly.

 

It doesn't help at all. Granted. But Saddam will not win the PR war guys. If the civilians just stop there will be no problem. I mean, i'd be nervous too because Syria just sent 4,000 self proclaimed suicide volunteers into iraq. They have got to be very suspicious of all inbound vehicles (15 marines got ran over yesterday).

 

in other words: If the Iraqis will just do what those foreigners in their country tell them, they'll be fine. This is the problem with the American mindset, we think people should simply believe us because we say something.

Let me ask the reverse: If a foreign country had a roadblock set up in your home town, would you be nervous about stopping at it?

If a foreign country's troops were kicking in the doors in your city, would you trust their motivations? Hell, if the local police were kicking in your door, would you trust their motives?

You and I might know that the American troops are not going to intentionally kill innocents. But that is largely because we know our military--"Look Bob's there and he's a good guy. There's no way he'd kill innocent people."

The Iraqis don't know Bob and they've heard years and years of information about how bad and horrible America is.

This is the American weakness. You can't beat us in a conventional battle, so you have to turn the population against us. Then, when the sacrifice becomes too great for the objective, the US will likely go home. Welcome to the future of warfare.

 

I think the US could take some lessons from the British troops who have some experience in Northern Ireland of dealing with a hostile populace. In fact last night I heard on the radio a BBC World Service report where a British officer was complaining about how the Us just doens't know how to deal with these type of situations and will end up throwing fuel on the fire by mistreating the Iraqi populace.

There's not an easy solution for to this for sure but let's hope the US doesn't turn heavy handed in dealing with Iraqi civilians.

 

any one have a background on British operations in Northern Ireland, because right now, we're starting to follow the Israeli strategy of dealing with this and I think we can all agree, that hasn't really been a successful path.

 

Yes, i would be nervous if i had to stop. I 'd also be nevous that they might shoot me if i didn't. I see some of you logic, but i take exception to your prediction that the US will beat repeatedly in the future by guerilla armies. We will find a way to deal with this. The guys on the ground are always resourceful.

 

i hope your right, but right now it feels like we're following the wrong path.

 

This is unacceptable. It's easy to blame this on Saddam's suicide strategy, but killing that many people at one time is inexcusable. It's one thing to value our lives above theirs, but not to this degree. Wiping out any potential threat is not the answer.

 

Really? When have ten people been killed at a checkpoint? If anything, we need to learn how the Israelis do it.

I have yet to hear of one IRA suicide bomber. That changes the equation completely.

 

coming from a guy sitting comfy behind his computer screen...

put yourself out there on the front lines, what would you be doing?

 

Don't give me this crap. Killing 10 people is inexcusable. It betrays a complete lack of training, at best. A complete disregard for life at worst. I refuse to make any excuses for it. Mistakes happen, of course. But this is a huge mistake.

I've heard other reports that are similar.

 

fidlerre, I just read the whole story, don't know
if you did:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A61229-2003Mar31.html

This strikes me as something that they (US troops)
need to learn very, very fast ( and I am sure
they will):
"To try to prevent a recurrence, Johnson ordered that signs be posted in Arabic to warn people to stop well short of the Bradleys guarding the eastern approach to the intersection"

At least make it very clear (huge signs: STOP!)
that they (civilians) really have to stop, no
joke.

 

i mean Israeli's strategy has been a failure in creating a stable environment in which peace can develop. i'd say UK has had better success

 

Northern Ireland is quite different than what Iraq is. It easier to beat roadblocks in a barren Iraq than a hill-ladden and forrested Northern Ireland.

In one instance, A British soldier shot and killed a couple of catholics after they ran a roadblock. The soldier was charged because although he did the right thing, the car was speeding away from the checkpoint. By shooting at the car as it sped away, the soldier violated the ROE's handed out.

In the Iraq instace, it seems the soldier acted properly.

 

This is very bad and very sad, and in large part due to the suicide bombing over the weekend that has made our soldiers suspect everyone of being a potential bomber.

But I'm genuinely curious to hear from the defense people here -- if you think the van might be packed with explosives and it's coming right at you, are you improving the situation by sending multiple rounds of live ammunition into it? Are you not just increasing the likelihood that it's going to blow up?

 

Actually, it sounds as though they were following orders to shoot on sight.

It wasn't a mistake.

 

The UK is not dealing with suicide bombers. There are so many differences, but the immediate problem is to avoid killing tons of Iraqis out of fear that one might be a suicide bomber. We need to figure this one out immediately.

 

Perhaps you are too ignorant to realize that they made every effort to get that vehicle to stop. They waved, screamed, and even fired shots into the engine compartment. They continued, and the troops there felt endangered, so they fired. Also what they did is legal, while very unfortunate.Under the Geneva Convention, you are allowed to fire on civilians if you feel endangered. Seeing as how Iraq has used these suicide tactics, our guys are suspicious of all inbound traffic, especially traffic that doesn't stop. So they fired. They probably know guys that were killed in the previous suicide attacks, so how dare you question their train of thought. Disregard of human life my ass. If that were the case, they would have taken that vehicle out with an M136 as soon as it crested the horizon.

 

Bombs such as these require "command detonations". In this case, the bomber must set off the bomb himself. Shooting live ammo to kill the driver may be hazardous, but the risk is low.

 

I don't believe warning shots were fired nor will I accept transferring all the blame to Saddam.

I find it impossible to believe that we didn't use excessive force.

BTW, if we come up with ************************ excuses for everything, I don't see how anybody can trust us.

 

okay, whatever you say...but until you are there i dont think you or i will ever understand. and i am in now way saying this is okay. i hate when anything like this happens but those soldiers are obviously thinking of their own well being first.

was a mistake made b/c they didnt fire a warning shot? sure, and i am sure that individual will be reprimanded but the fear after sundays car bombing is in the back of every single one of those soldiers minds out in iraq when a car is coming at them and not stopping.

mistakes happen in the heat of war, and they are very, very unfortunate <going both ways> but in no way am i gonna say this is totally uncalled for; these soldiers made a horrible decision and i am sure it will live with them for a long, long time.