U-20 WNT: 2014 Campaign

Discussion in 'USA Women: News and Analysis' started by lunatica, Jan 6, 2014.

  1. Hooked003

    Hooked003 Member

    Jan 28, 2014
    The original comment and follow-up refer to "iniesta-like tiki-taka" style. That Jill allows the senior team to make short passes does not come close to affirming that the US is playing Barcelona's style of play. Jill's style on the international stage does not come close to a possession style of play.
     
  2. Namdynamo

    Namdynamo Member+

    Jan 1, 2005
    http://americansoccernow.com/articles/north-korea-defeats-u-s-women-on-penalty-kicks

     
  3. White/Blue_since1860

    Orange14 is gay
    Jan 4, 2007
    Bum zua City
    Club:
    TSV 1860 München
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Since the question "when will America produce a Messi?" gets raised very often... it is perhaps legit to ask here in this discussion about technical skills, where is -given the vast resources of women's soccer in the US- that American star player of the type of a Marta or Maroszan, Necib or Boquete?
     
  4. luvdagame

    luvdagame Member+

    Jul 6, 2000
    "does not come close to a possession style of play" and "utterly and completely hate short-pass, possession soccer" are quite different statements.

    plus, the uswnt does not need to play barcelona style to be successful. they can play part possession and part get it up to morgan/leroux quickly like real madrid play and still be great. that's what they are trying to do.

    they have to use their tools effectively. that's all.
     
  5. luvdagame

    luvdagame Member+

    Jul 6, 2000
    i actually don't hear that question very often.

    when i do hear it, it's usually from someone who mostly discounts the huge value of soccer culture, and places great value in "the vast resources...."

    the answer to the question is probably: never.

    we will continue producing bo jacksons, clowneys, jordans, bryants, and jameses. but on the woso side "the vast resources" can't buy you love in a hand egg/basketball world.

    all you'll get is more morgans, pinoes, sauerbrunns, and solos.
     
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  6. kernel_thai

    kernel_thai Member+

    Oct 24, 2012
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    the only way u get a big style change is if it's mandated thruout the program. If they started playing Barcelona style all the way up thru the Us then ud have something. I dont believe the U20s r together long enough in the build up to successfully change their style. And because players r generally in the U20s for one two year cycle, u cant effect change over time.
     
  7. lil_one

    lil_one Member+

    Nov 26, 2013
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    An American star player like Akers? Too many years ago? She doesn't count?

    To answer your question, its not only the lack of soccer culture, but also the pay-to-play system that stresses a win-loss record over youth development. The 'vast resources' are that we have thousands upon thousands of girls playing but many play for a volunteer coach who know little about soccer. The US does not have thousands upon thousands being developed in a systematic way. Moreover, most of those girls play multiple sports, and many will drop out of soccer playing in their teenage years. Of course, the US is great at producing goalkeepers on the men's and women's sides, and on the women's side we produce more than our fair share of world-class strikers/forwards.

    The times, they are a'changin', though. As far as fans and culture, the needle moved, ever so incrementally, but still moved with this year's MWC. Development is becoming a bigger talking point, and I see better coaches now than I used to, at last in urban areas and soccer hotbeds. Will the US ever develop a female world-dominant player like Messi? I don't know, but I certainly see signs of hope that we will be developing more technical players, but still perhaps not at the rate that more soccer-culture-rich countries are.
     
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  8. White/Blue_since1860

    Orange14 is gay
    Jan 4, 2007
    Bum zua City
    Club:
    TSV 1860 München
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Never thought culture could play such a big role. My thinking was: more girls = better players. But on the other hand Germany is probably the best example that cultures can change and that such a change can lead to results. It only takes time. I saw that change is really happening during the MWC and Im now sure if you can bring that together with the other assets of the American soccer culture, then US will always play a big role in the women's game.

    and yes Michelle Akers is a very good exception to the rule. :thumbsup:
     
  9. mamalia

    mamalia Member

    Apr 26, 2001
    Cincinnati OH US
    And honestly I see the when US Messi? being asked about US male players because, you know Messi is a man.
     
  10. cpthomas

    cpthomas BigSoccer Supporter

    Portland Thorns
    United States
    Jan 10, 2008
    Portland, Oregon
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Whoa, although it probably is valid to criticize the "pay to play" system (although I haven't heard many good suggestions for what to replace it with and it's an exaggeration to represent that there is only pay to play) and although it is valid to criticize the emphasis on win-loss record over youth development, there is not necessarily a link between the two. Maybe you didn't mean to imply the two are inseparable, but it sounded that way.

    And, on the question whether the US ever will develop a female world dominant player like Messi -- although world dominant probably isn't the right term -- if I recall rightly two of the three greatest scorers of all time are from the US and the other of the three is from North America.

    The USFS does agree with you about the need for all players, on a national basis, to be developed in a systematic way. There's a significant question whether our culture will allow that to happen.

    And I agree with you that we are developing a better cadre of coaches. And I know that the USFS is trying to have them coach so as to develop players in a systematic way.
     
  11. mamalia

    mamalia Member

    Apr 26, 2001
    Cincinnati OH US
    Yes. I think 20 years ago, an English accent was one of the principal criteria to have access to youth club player coaching ( of course I am being snarky, but not too far off the mark in some respects.)
     
  12. cpthomas

    cpthomas BigSoccer Supporter

    Portland Thorns
    United States
    Jan 10, 2008
    Portland, Oregon
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well, a little over 45 years ago, my first coach was an American -- but he'd grown up and played in England. My next coach knew nothing about soccer. My main college coach was a German, and I'm not sure he really knew what he was doing although we had some pretty decent teams for those days ("for those days" being a definitely relative phrase).
     
  13. lil_one

    lil_one Member+

    Nov 26, 2013
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I didn't really mean to imply a link other than both are fundamental parts of the US system; it could have been better worded. Actually now that I think about it, is there a link? If you're paying hundreds of dollars to have your child play, you're going to expect results or a return for your money. The best way to judge those results on a short-term basis would be your child's playing time and the team's record. So maybe a tentative link? However, perhaps not much of one, as I used to coach in a system that was more academy-style, which does exist in the States. Players were mixed around every week and played scrimmages against others within the academy. No actual "teams" as all in the same age group practiced together. It definitely placed more emphasis on development than records as no win-loss records were kept. It took awhile for some parents to get on board though. I think some parents probably kept their own win-loss records. :rolleyes:

    I think White/Blue is discounting all of our dominant strikers. Perhaps I should have said a dominant #10 player specifically?

    My coach anecdotes: All growing up, I had volunteer coaches until I was a teenager. Few of them knew anything about soccer besides what they may have found in coaching books. My first coach was my dad who had never watched a soccer game before he started coaching! :eek: [He's learned a lot since then and was a referee for years.] I had a club coach in my teen years who was Argentinian; I think he knew some about soccer, but did not know how to coach. We were a pretty poor team under him. In high school, I had three different coaches between high school and club; one was Irish who was pretty decent actually. Another coach was a guy who previously had coached American football and knew nothing about soccer. But the best in high school was an American guy who had played at a semi-pro level. Main coach in college was Brazilian, and probably the best coach I ever had.
     
  14. cpthomas

    cpthomas BigSoccer Supporter

    Portland Thorns
    United States
    Jan 10, 2008
    Portland, Oregon
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    [Emphasis added.]
    Parents, in my experience, is where the "need to win vs develop" comes in. Clubs and coaches need to be confident in what they're doing and be very clear with parents: "What we care about is how your daughter will play X years in the future. That is all that matters. If it means losing now because we're focusing on what she needs to learn now, then so be it. If that doesn't work for you, then you probably should take your daughter somewhere else."

    In my experience, if a coach can say this with conviction -- and has the credentials to back it up -- parents will buy it. My experience with parents, however, is in another sport (which is at least as expensive as soccer). In soccer too, though, I believe I could succeed in getting parent buy in.
     
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  15. White/Blue_since1860

    Orange14 is gay
    Jan 4, 2007
    Bum zua City
    Club:
    TSV 1860 München
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    I did what? Not at all. ;) Im asking where's that American star player of the type of the players I mentioned. Is one of them a natural striker? No. They are all highly technical offensive-orientated midfielders but no CF like Morgan or Wambach. They are world class - for the type of player that they are.

    Messi plays somewhat weird in between striker and OM. Messi is not the best example but Iniesta was mentioned earlier: a (probably small), quick, highly technical playmaking CM. A #10 or #8. Maroszan or Kroos. Can assist and score. You know, they guy/girl who does things on the field nobody expects. The type of player you need to play possession orientated footy.
     
  16. lil_one

    lil_one Member+

    Nov 26, 2013
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    We have American star players, but they're world-class strikers. You're asking about a specific type of player: a technical, creative dominant #10, discounting the dominant strikers (and goalkeepers) that the US does produce and asking for a very specific style, that is just not the US style of play, nor may it ever fully be. I'd like to see us keep the American physical speed/fitness/grit/etc. style of play combined with some direct play and some possession in the midfield.

    We'd like to have a #10 that can be the playmaker (who wouldn't?), and if we're going to stick with the 4-3-3, we may really need one, but that #10 or tiki-taka style of play is not the end-all, be-all in soccer (I mean, how well did Iniesta with Spain do at the WC? Exactly, people have discovered ways to defend against that style of play). Players who can assist and score? We have those in Morgan, Press (but neither are mids), Lloyd (more of a #8 and physical) and Rapinoe ...but again not in the style of play you're asking for. Heath is also creative and technical but just inconsistent. In the past, we had Akers and then Wagner (who may have become that type of player but was injury-prone and also inconsistent).

    We definitely need more technical players; I'm not arguing that, but we do have dominant, world-class players, just not in the position you're asking about. To keep this related to the u-20 wnt, I do see promise in Lavelle.
     
  17. hotjam2

    hotjam2 Member+

    Nov 23, 2012
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    if the US would of won their penalty shootout, you got to wonder how far they would of gotten? cause Nigeria went on to destroy N Korea, 5-1 in the semis. The more exciting game though was the other semi. France vs Germany. I've posted the full game replay down below(though it's in German language). But this game proved to way more exciting than the tame US/Swiss friendly played that same night and I really think that we got to learn from Fra/Ger, otherwise we're might just be fall behind! Germany has an incredible 8 players that still could qualify, age wise, for the next u20 wc. They've changes their tactics, to more quicker, fast breaking team. But in this game it's France that does look overly impressive with some very speedy players. And watch out for the hard pressing both teams do! It makes me wonder if these two teams could actually beat the US senior squad(who looked rather slowed paced vs the Swiss
    1st half

    2nd half
     
  18. White/Blue_since1860

    Orange14 is gay
    Jan 4, 2007
    Bum zua City
    Club:
    TSV 1860 München
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    100% agree. Ive seen the games vs Germany and PRK and in the least Lavelle seemed the only midfielder halfway adapted to this kind if technical midfield play. If the US would or could produce more of that player type and a few of them rated world class then IMO you guys would be nearly unbeatable for years. that's THE missing piece to a functioning 4-3-3.
     
  19. exref

    exref Member

    Aug 1, 2009
    Louisville, KY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So, who won?
     
  20. kernel_thai

    kernel_thai Member+

    Oct 24, 2012
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    #795 kernel_thai, Aug 26, 2014
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2014
    Germany beat Nigeria 1-0 in extra time.
     
  21. kernel_thai

    kernel_thai Member+

    Oct 24, 2012
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders


    Highlights...at about the 1 minute marks on the vid, Nigeria gets a goal but it is waived off. The ball is headed into the goal mouth but a second player goes into the goal to kick it home. It was ruled the heaer wasnt over the line so the second player was off side. This happened with a few minutes left in regular time.
     
  22. exref

    exref Member

    Aug 1, 2009
    Louisville, KY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Thanks so much, looks like a good match.
     
  23. BrooklynSoccer

    BrooklynSoccer Member+

    Jan 22, 2008
    It's very much a shame, Nigeria should have won, as the ball clearly crossed the goal line. Undoubtedly, they would have won the world cup with just a minutes left. Check 1:18 on the high lights video above.

    Did the Nigerian federation file a complaint? Beyond that, Nigeria very much outplayed Germany in regulation.
     
  24. kernel_thai

    kernel_thai Member+

    Oct 24, 2012
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    The player who kicked the ball last was standing completely inside the goal mouth.
     
  25. BrooklynSoccer

    BrooklynSoccer Member+

    Jan 22, 2008
    the ball was over the goal line when the player touched it.
     

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