Twellman speculation

Discussion in 'New England Revolution' started by brianzappa, Nov 5, 2004.

  1. brianzappa

    brianzappa Member

    Oct 21, 2003
    In a big country
  2. The Magpie

    The Magpie Member

    Nov 19, 1998
    Cambridge, MA
  3. idiot wind

    idiot wind Member

    Mar 12, 2004
    In the past the MLS has asked alot for transfer fees. Given Twellman's name recognition value to the MLS, and his less than stellar recent form, I'd be very suprised if a German club and the MLS come to agreement on a deal. I doubt Twellman got a buyout clause when he renegotiated after 2002. If not, the MLS will likely hold onto him another year, similar to what they did with Beasley.
     
  4. The Magpie

    The Magpie Member

    Nov 19, 1998
    Cambridge, MA
    Well, let's wait and see how this plays out. Most of the international transfers of late have involved higher profile national team players and larger clubs, and neither Twellman nor Hertha particularly qualify as such. Also, with Twellman's play being someone inconsistent of late, the asking price might not be as great as some people think, especially considering what a foreign club may be willing to pay: they may spend what they think is a relatively small figure, which is still a considerable sum by MLS standards.

    Let's see how this plays out...

    The Magpie
     
  5. JMMUSA8

    JMMUSA8 New Member

    Nov 3, 2001
    Webster
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    After Twellman's 2002 campaign, Conventry City and other EPL clubs were interested in him, then MLS resigned him, so I'm assuming they did include a buyout clause.

    Hertha needs a forward, they have a great defense but horrible offense. I think Hertha sees Twellman as a inexpensive fix for their problems. They may get a bigger name forward to compliment Twellman.

    Ironic how that two US players who were benched in their first stint of the Bundesliga are now wanted by Bundesliga teams for starting roles.
     
  6. brianzappa

    brianzappa Member

    Oct 21, 2003
    In a big country
    http://www.dailyherald.com/sports/sports_story.asp?intID=38301125

    ...about 3/4 of the way down.

     
  7. RevsRule

    RevsRule Member+

    NE Revs, LAFC
    Jun 9, 1999
    N. Eastern, Mass
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    If Twellman gets shipped out, the Revs won't get any fans at $5.00 a ticket. Would anybody come to see Noonan as the main man?

    I would think people like EJ or Buddle would be of more interest (I hope)
     
  8. The Magpie

    The Magpie Member

    Nov 19, 1998
    Cambridge, MA
    Let's keep things in perspective here people.

    For one thing, Twellman hasn't been shipped out, and we don't have a good sense if he wants to be shipped out: a few clubs have been in contact with him, but that's the sum total of what we really know at this point.

    If he does go, then it's almost a certainty that the Revs would get compensation from the league, likely in the form of an allocation. Factor in the potential departure of Moore and/or Llamosa, and you might see a second allocation as well. Considering this, I don't think there's much chance of Noonan being our "main man" in 2005.

    FWIW, Johnson and Buddle are good young players, but there's nothing outside of their raw ability to suggest they'd be either a good fit or productive here. Yes, they put up similar numbers to Noonan this past season, but not sure why they'd generate more "interest" in this particular market as opposed to another.
     
  9. Jeremy Goodwin

    Feb 16, 1999
    Club:
    Montreal Impact
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well, Buddle's from New Rochelle, and Foxboro is marginally more accessible than Columbus if he wants to be near family.

    DC's so stocked with youth right now, I'm not sure they'd want to put in another young player with a potentially high salary, since eventually they're going to have to give up those young players due to salary cap problems when Adu drops off the development roster (probably after next season, unless he wins rookie of the year this year, in which case it would be hard to justify keeping him devel, wonder if that's a reason that Novak has limited his play time).

    Metros get what they want when they want it though.
     
  10. rkupp

    rkupp Member+

    Jan 3, 2001
    Not that it would have a box-office effect, but I wouldn't mind seeing the Revs make an offer for Jeff Cunningham. He shouldn't be too expensive since he's buried on the depth chart these days, and if anyone can work on his "head", I think Steve Nicol could. There's an immense amount of talent there, waiting for some soccer-IQ to make it effective.
     
  11. The Magpie

    The Magpie Member

    Nov 19, 1998
    Cambridge, MA
    If Buddle's primary need and/or desire is to be near family then he can play for the Long Island Rough Riders: he's a good player, and one with more than a fair share of potential, but the Revs don't have a good track record with players who need more parenting than coaching, and Buddle arguably fits that profile.

    Quite frankly, a player like Buddle or Johnson will have zero, ZERO marketing pull in this area. Taylor Twellman's been one of the best strikers in the league over the last three seasons, has a bit of cockiness, and a nice smile, but I don't see fans flocking to see him.

    Now, put those players out there as part of a team that throttles the competition on a weekly basis, and with a measure of flair, then maybe fans will start to turn up.
     
  12. Sean Donahue

    Sean Donahue Member

    Aug 31, 2001
    Massachusetts
    With Adu's 500k plus salary, what's the need to drop him from the developmental roster? Isn't he project 40? My guess is he'll be a developmental player for as long as he stays in MLS (assuming that's not more than 7 years)
     
  13. Jeremy Goodwin

    Feb 16, 1999
    Club:
    Montreal Impact
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The league graduates players from P40 without input from the teams, and without a fixed set of criteria.

    If you believe that the league is going to permit Freddy, who makes 500k per year, to stay on with DC as a P40 player indefinitely (thereby not counting against the salary cap at all) if he's seeing 60 minutes or more on a weekly basis, then I have a bridge to sell you.

    There is NO WAY that he will remain a developmental player indefinitely.
     
  14. Sean Donahue

    Sean Donahue Member

    Aug 31, 2001
    Massachusetts
    Then how will they explain his salary that is twice as high as the league maximum and will take up the better part of a 4th of D.C.'s salary room for a player who doesn't start?

    I disagree with it, but I see the league keeping him project-40 for as long as possible, no matter how unfair that is.
     
  15. Jeremy Goodwin

    Feb 16, 1999
    Club:
    Montreal Impact
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If he starts, he will be graduated.

    I think this is a major reason that Freddy did not start and did not play significant minutes this year. That is all that I'm saying.
     
  16. rkupp

    rkupp Member+

    Jan 3, 2001
    They'll find a way to count only a portion of his salary on the cap (probably the "stated maximum"). As far as explaining it, they have people they pay to do that!
     
  17. mosler

    mosler Member

    Jan 2, 2003
    Mashpee, MA
    If you agree with Jeremy that MLS will graduate Freddy sooner rather than later (and I do), then this is the only thing that makes any sense.
     
  18. Jeremy Goodwin

    Feb 16, 1999
    Club:
    Montreal Impact
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That's already how they treat other players who make more than the maximum cap salary. It's nothing new.
     
  19. ToMhIlL

    ToMhIlL Member+

    Feb 18, 1999
    Boxborough, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    At one point Cobi Jones was making $800k, Lalas made $600k, Donadoni and Matthaus each made $1million per year, and a few others like Hermosillo, Campos, and Luis Hernandez were in that boat. In all cases their salary counted for whatever the league maximum on the cap was at the time.

    As for when a player graduates from P-40/Development status, unfortunately that is another one of MLS's "etched in jell-o" rules. I remember getting into a conversation with Fernando Clavijo a few years ago, when he was upset that one of his players had graduated, yet there were others around the league who had played a lot more and made more of a contribution who were still considered P-40.

    With Adu, my guess is they can probably only get away with one more year of development status. He came a long way this year and became much more of a complete player. Sure, the kid is still only 15, but I expect that he will be less of a novelty and more of a solid contributor to DCU next year, earning his fair share of starts. After the 2005 season he should count as a maximum salary player. If that means Nowak and Payne will have to make tough choices with other players, so be it...

    Tom
     
  20. Liverpool_SC

    Liverpool_SC Member

    Jun 28, 2002
    Upstate, SC
    Just like D.J. Countess, right? And Kyle Beckerman and Seth Trembly and Brian West and many other players who were starters before they were "graduated" from developmental status.

    Freddy played major minutes this season even if he didn't start. He got into something like 33 games. But he is still only 15. If that is not a developmental player, than what is it? Wayne Rooney made many starts at Everton before he had a professional contract. He rode his bike to Goodison Park. IIRC, he was even on the stinking Senior National Team before he was considered a "professional".

    Freddy is in the same boat. Just because he gets lot of playing time doesn't mean that he is a senior player in the same manner that guys who are 22 or 23 (and have been in P40 for 3 or 4 years) are.
     
  21. Jeremy Goodwin

    Feb 16, 1999
    Club:
    Montreal Impact
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    These other players were not making significant amounts of money. Because of the salary cap issue, there should be more pressure on the league from the other teams to graduate Freddy, because if he is putting in significant time AND is having league max exempted from the cap, that's a different story than Beckerman, West, Trembly or Countess making even regular starting appearances and only being exempted for 24-40k.

    It is an entire magnitude of difference in terms of leaguewide issues of salary and performance balance.
     
  22. Jon Martin

    Jon Martin Member+

    Apr 25, 2000
    SE Mass
    Especially since Adu was a gift to DCU in exchange for a mythical allocation.

    Dallas still hasn't gotten their end of the bargain, have they?
     
  23. Liverpool_SC

    Liverpool_SC Member

    Jun 28, 2002
    Upstate, SC
    So your real problem with this is not that Freddy is not playing any more than Beckerman, West, Trembly or Countess - only that he is MAKING a bunch more than these guys.

    The fact is that Freddy is not the first expensive P40 player. Guys like Quaranta, Esky, Barcley and Convey made pretty decent money from the beginning too. Nothing like Freddy, but it wasn't $24,000.

    Granted Freddy is making lots of money - he is also making the league lots of money. Don't worry about it. If it hurts your feelings that DC gets more bang from their buck out of their developmental player than the average team - don't forget that they were forced to draft Adu, forced (to a much lesser extent) to play Adu and forced to give up a draft pick and allocation for Adu.

    He is a special case and the league can't exactly penalize DC United 25% of their salary cap simply because they are using a player that the league placed on their team.

    How is it a mythical allocation simply because Dallas has not used it? They may be sitting on it, but that doesn't make it mythical.

    Adu was a gift that came with some strings. Period. DC is happy to have Freddy, to be sure. But he brings a lot of complications to the team as well.

    It is not in the league's, the (poorly-supported) Revs' or US Soccer's best interest for DC United to be punished for actually developing Freddy Adu. What you are suggesting - moving him out of developmental status because he is improving and playing regularly - is basically punishing Piotr Nowak for doing a great job developing Adu.

    Would it have been better to sit Freddy and give him only 10 minutes here, 20 minutes there every 3 - 4 games so that he can maintain his developmental status - and save 25% of the team's salary cap? No. It is best to play him the amount of time that he deserves to play based on his talent, maturity and ability to contribute on the field.

    At the very least, MLS should give the kid 2 years of developmental status, regardless of his playing time. I think that 3 is better too - so that by the time he is the age of a typical high school senior, he is regarded as a professional player (that is the first time FIFA acknowledges him as one).

    There is no reason to think that Freddy won't go through a growth spurt, get an injury or struggle with some other physical change relating to the fact he is an ADOLESCENT and this could seriously affect his status for the team. As a result, he should continue to be regarded as a developmental player.

    When he is graduated, his salary should be evaluated at the top of the MLS salary cap for an individual player (currently $250,000 I think) and not at its face value - just as players like Cobi Jones, Brian McBride, Landon Donovan, Lothar Mattheus and others have received higher salaries without punitive effects on their teams salary cap allocation.

    MLS is smart. The Salary Cap is a guide that is maintained for the benefit of the league. In every season, teams have received "preferential" treatment of one form or another whether it be through developmental players, foreign players, etc who don't count against the cap at face value. That is best for the league. It is similar to the exemptions available in other leagues with caps (NFL, NBA, etc). You can cry about it, but the league would be crazy to take a Javert-pound of flesh approach with DC United simply because they have done a good job developing the league's most marketable player.
     
  24. brianzappa

    brianzappa Member

    Oct 21, 2003
    In a big country
    You make a lot of good points, but this is just crazy talk. ;)
     
  25. Jeremy Goodwin

    Feb 16, 1999
    Club:
    Montreal Impact
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I just wanted to note here that until I saw this long ass post, I didn't even realize that you were a DC fan, which appears to be coloring your vision, so this may well be my last post on this topic, since you ain't comin' 'round anytime soon.
    No, you are misunderstanding. My real problem with this is that IF HE PLAYS A LOT, HE SHOULD NOT BE ON THE DEVELOPMENTAL ROSTER, AND THEREFORE SALARY EXEMPT. The reason that I think that his case something will actually be done about it is that he makes a lot of money.
    As stated before, Freddy makes a full magnitude more money than any other developmental player before him. We're talking about 10x more than any dev player that I've ever heard of.
    Boo fricking hoo for DC. LA was forced to pick up Caliguri when he refused to play in Columbus, New England was forced to retain 'Lexi Lalas for years because his talent was too low for him to be traded for his price (he's a nice guy, I hate to pick on him, but he was shite in those days). Miami received a gift wrapped Carlos Valderrama who didn't want to play for them in the interests of drumming up hispanic support in a market full of baseball fans. Tampa received him back without any significant compensation to either party either time.
    I don't mind if you play him, and I don't mind if you don't, but if you do play him, you should be responsible for bearing the burden of his salary. If you're going to use him as a super sub, he should be charged against you like one (tell me that there haven't been league max supersubs in the league before, I'll laugh).
    While I'll give Novak full credit for what he's done (I certainly don't think that Hudson had half his knowledge of players and tactics), I don't think that Freddy has developed significantly beyond what he would have given an adequate training environment and some play time at any team in the league, and I would expect the same type of test to be applied wherever he was.
    There are those, like myself, who believe that the statement you just made sitting him to maintain his dev status, is indeed EXACTLY what happened this year. Early in the season, he was not ready, and the team may have been pressured to play him at that point for PR reasons, but by midseason, except for mouthing off, he was probably ready to be playing half the game or more. Novak, having come out of Chicago, watched several other players who were graduated onto Chicago's senior roster, and probably had full knowledge of the cost impact and salary problems that that was causing the team (in addition to the offseason renegotiations of contracts that were not yet complete, and the resigning of frail and quasi-useful players to multi-year guarantees in the hopes that they would be sold soon for a tidy profit, some of which never materialized [WOLFF]).
    I disagree that DC should receive three years of free rent on a player that they will most likely use extensively next season, and would have, IMHO, used more this season if not for the threat of that 250k hitting the team next year, preventing them from aquiring another senior player or two to help them in their cup run. I DO NOT think that Novak expected the team to do as well in the playoffs this year as they did.

    I agree that when he goes to the senior roster, he should hit it just like any other player who makes more than the league maximum salary impact, I never said any differently. That's how the MLS game is played, and I don't mind that, even though I think it's pretty silly.
    ...
     

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