I didn't exactly find what I was looking for in the index, so... Say MLS only expands to one of these cities, and not the other anywhere in the near future. If you are from one of these places, will you support the other city if they get the team, or resent them and go elsewhere or ignore them (and/or MLS). Which one would be a better place? Tulsa or OKC? My wife is from Ft Smith, which is a couple hours away form Tulsa, but there isn't a ton of big places around either place IMO, although neither has a major league team in any sport. I'm impartial, but curious. I just want another team in the region, but I think my wife would like Tulsa
I prefer the OKC area. And not just because I live in OKC, because I was born and raised in Tulsa. I only moved to OKC a few years ago. But if you compare the areas that the stadiums will be located, then OKC has Tulsa in a choke hold. The Edmond community is a "friendly" place compared to Tulsa. Skelly Stadium is not in the best part of Tulsa. I would be afraid to walk to my vehicle (especially in the dark) after a game. Even if i were with a small group, I would still be afraid. If Tulsa were to get a team instead of OKC, my family and I would only attend the games that San Jose were involved. But if OKC were to get the team, then we would be season ticket holders.
I think Skelly Stadium in Tulsa is in a better location (more centralized) than Wantland in Edmond. I think it's silly for ANYONE to be afraid to go to a game at Skelly... doesn't seem to be a problem for Univ of Tulsa basketball fans and the centralized location seems more conducive to good crowds than a downtown Tulsa location (ask the Talons arena football team about playing downtown). It remains to be seen whether OKC people from say, Norman and Yukon, will travel well to Edmond. A centrally located bricktown location for a stadium would be best, but the mayor of OKC pretty much nixed that idea from the beginning. That said, MLS officials have time and time again stated that Skelly is not an option they want... too big and too old, it'd be like adding another Spartan Stadium to the mix. Edmond's Wantland will be expanded anyway, it's simply a matter of Express Sports kicking in the extra $$$ to get the stadium to the 22,500 capacity MLS is seeking. And, Tulsa ultimately wants to build a SSS for MLS, but seems to be backing away from that of late considering the city's budget problems... the latest seems to be a multi-million $$$ scheme to get Boeing to build a plant in Tulsa, an effort that will ending up costing Tulsa taxpayers far more than building a soccer stadium on the public dime. Many Tulsans I've communicated with have expressed at least some interest in traveling to Edmond, should they get the team. And Tulsa already has at the very least 5,000 season ticket committments (that number was quoted on KOTV in T-town the 1st week in April). Segroves seems to think this means nothing, but all these people signed pledges for a specific number of tickets and gave cc#s and blank checks... what else can you ask for when the team won't play a game until 2005? One wonders if after the dust clears, the "loser" in this year's expansion sweepstakes won't go ahead and get an A-league team... god knows the infrastructure would be there for an A-league team at Skelly or a refitted Wantland with 10K to 15K seating capacity... kinda like Rochester and Syracuse... As for which city is better, Tulsa is smaller than OKC, yet I don't completely trust Express Sports or OKC fans, who may be more interested in using MLS as a stepping stone to an NHL or Arena-pointyball franchise than produce an organization that would have a long term committment to pro soccer. Tulsans have already had the NASL Roughnecks which spawned a one-year-and-done 80's USFL team--the Oklahoma Outlaws pro football team with Doug Williams at QB drew less total fans than the Roughnecks before moving to Arizona the very next year. So I think even the most anti-soccer of Tulsans would admit a pro soccer team at the highest level would probably be the only major league team Tulsa would be capable of supporting.
I can tell you right now that Express Sports and OKC wants nothing to do with the NHL. I forget how many months ago it was but there was an article in the Daily Oklahoman talking about how thankful everyone is now that the NHL past them over. With now salary cap and teams losing money hand over fist, the NHL is not the place to be right now. The tape delay of the Women's College World Series drew better TV ratings than the 1st game of the Stanley Cup. The mayor can want Arena Football all he wants but he won't have Bob Funk to buy it. If MLS comes then Arena football is a dead idea (hopefully for everyone soon. It's almost comical to watch games). If no one's seen, www.MLSinOKC.com/construction.html, they're starting in on Wantland Stadium. Yes, the stadium was due for it long before MLS talk started, but look at the pictures and look as closely (south end) is lining up with plans for an MLS-size stadium. Also, they've laid the drainage and sprinklers so the new field will be real grass, not plastic.
OKC had an arena football team a couple of years ago. The Wranglers folded in 2001 after only two seasons. Are they really trying to get another one?
I've been watching the MLS OKC progress since the move for a team started. I have to say I am getting discouraged. It all started off full speed ahead and now since the ticket drive is on the back burner, I suspect Express sports has hit a snag they aren't talking about (i.e. other investors). I'm still hopeful but no longer getting my hopes up. I realize remodeling has started at UCO but I think its using the football stadium plans UCO had in place and not the tentative SSS plans drawn up which is even more discourageing.
As someone who lives OC in and believes that Oklahoma City will be a major league city some day, I don't believe MLS in OKC in 2005 will work... Edmond is not Oklahoma City, but to the rest of the nation (especially sports leagues), it will have to do. However, because Edmond is (barring traffic) a good 30 minutes from my house (yes, I live in the city) and also because Wantland Stadium is an hour away from where I will live in 9 months (South Norman), I know that if I want to go to an MLS game, I must add 2 hours... To me, adding 2 hours is no problem, as I am used to long drives... however, to the run-of-the-mill fan in Oklahoma City proper, I'm no convinced that they'd drive to Edmond. The baseball team lost part of its following when it changed stadiums, and the new one is only 10 minutes away. As much as it pains me to say it, as tempting as having MLS in OKC now, its not the best plan for the City. Perhaps if our city works out a stadium (I've heard rumors that a 20K football stadium is on the books for MAPs 3) in the future, it will be good then... however, now is not the time... Our eyes are larger than our stomachs... Lets face it. Yes, 9,200 people paying $20/seat to an exhibition game in 40 degree weather is good. That's 92% capacity, whoo-who. But lets be honest, will those nine thousand plus another five thousand make the journey 15 times a year? Honestly, do you think so? I personally don't, as much as I hate to say it. If MLS fails in OKC, OKC will not have any pro sports for another 20 years, at least. I'd rather wait a few years and take a better risk than to take this one... I guess I'm too conservative... Now, I'm not exactly sure if Tulsa is a great idea for MLS. Expanding to a small-middle market like OKC is relatively degrading to the league's status, but Tulsa is just a small market. (Of course, Edmond is a worse idea, IMO...) But... in either case, good luck to OKC or Tulsa if they get a team. My heart wants MLS in OKC now, but my mind says no. My pride says screw Tulsa, but the best of luck if you get a team... No matter the outcome, I'll make the drive to the games... will you?
tulsa by far, but... as much as i would like to see tulsa get a team, i do not see it happening. like usrufnex said, tulsa's mayor (republican / big business) believes the future of tulsa is in getting another huge corporation to come here. thus, football is pretty much been pushed out. oh well..... as for being scared to go to skelly stadium, i bet you lived in south tulsa. i live not one block away from skelly and i love it. the neighbors are great and the neighborhoods are really quiet. it's always the south tulsans and their snobby ideas that are always make central tulsa far worse than it really is. as for okc getting a team. maybe, but mls is not stupid and they know that okc has never supported a major football team while tulsa is known nationwide as a football town. just my .02
What most don't realize is that is was MLS that came to Tulsa seeking interest, not the other way around. If Garber, Abbott, Hunt and Co. didn't think Tulsa had a big enough market to support MLS, they wouldn't have come into town a year ago at this time seeking a team. Tulsa was one of 18 cities that were finalists for what was supposed to be a 12 team MLS for 1995. We'll see.
We don't have to worry about the threat of Arena Football (at least the AFL) coming soon. There was an article saying that at best we might get an AFL2 team which is nothing. The AFL didn't draw well when they were here, let alone a crappy little minor league team.
I traveled down to both cities from KC for the exhibition games this spring. I have to say that even though Tulsa is an hour closer, and the stadium is bigger. I had a much better time in OKC. Frankly there was a lot more to do in town, there is a nice hotel across from the school with reasonable rates and a large capacity with good breakfast. There is also a bar that is adequate just down the road. Tulsa on the other hand, Wantland stadium is bigger and already in place. You can tailgate in the parking lots, and there is a bar right across the street. The Hotels are not near by and not in the best neighborhoods.
I live in Lawton and I'm hoping if Oklahoma gets a team, it'll be in OKC. And, yes, I'll be making the trip to see as many games as possible. I work on Saturdays, so some games will be out, but I might get season tickets so my wife can take my son when I can't. Anyway, I doubt it'll happen. With Express Sports saying they need to finalize an ownership group, I get the impression they don't have a solid group. It doesn't make sense to me to hold up the ticket drive at this point unless you're not sure you're going to have someone to own the team. Ownership killed the Arena League team in OKC, and it may kill the hopes of an MLS team, too.
This blew my mind. Every day in the Daily Oklahoman in the Sports section they have this thing called Point/Counterpoint where two writers debate on which is better: This or that. Examples:Who's better, White Sox or Cubs? What's the greatest team in NFL history? Then you'd have one writer say White Sox and the other Cubs, or you'd have Green Bay and Jets, or something like that. Well, this past Wednesday, to my surprise, was, "What's the best soccer venue?" The answers were Wembley and Old Trafford. Here's the link. http://www.newsok.com/cgi-bin/show_article?ID=1039190&TP=getsports Francisco Ojeda I know was a knowledgable soccer writer, but Barry Tramel has really surprised me. It's a good sign that local media is at least soccer friendly. Perhaps a sign of what's to come (ie more soccer coverage in the form of a local MLS team? )
Someone should break the news to Tramel (gently, of course) that Wembley is no more. No more twin towers. Lots of rubble. I had to look twice to make sure of the date on the piece. It sounded like it was written more than two years ago. Does this guy live in the here and now?
OKC VS TULSA Its the same old story. Who is better, OKC or Tulsa. I live in a suburb of OKC, but I've been between the two cities many many many times over the years, so I've had experience in both. For soccer, I would personally hope that if it went to Tulsa, that there would be somewhere better than Skelly. Its old and run down, and needs to be bulldozed. You won't see any renovation there until the Tulsa football quits sucking. The high school games in Tulsa have more fans there than the college. Not to mention that the field is not exactly what the MLS is looking for. The size just doesnt leave enough room for sidelines with that wall. Its just a football field, thats it. Professional soccer players wouldnt be happy there. There also isn't as much for a tourist to see in Tulsa. You've got gilcrease, and Philbrook, but if you aren't into the arts, there's not a lot to do. In OKC, the main problem is that its in Edmond. Its too far north of a central location for those anywhere other than north OKC. The same would be true if one was to go in Norman. Wantland stadium is really a piece of junk. What college has wooden stands for visitors? Our HS band always hated going there because the stands were so bad. But that's a mute point, because the renovation plan is awesome. It will be a premier sports venue and will definately be more appealing than Skelly. It is definately a nicer area with better hotels and restaurants, but again you would have to travel to OKC to do anything if you are a tourist. I'm not sure people are going to do that. The main problem here is that both venues are at schools. If either town is going to be serious about a plan, then they need to BULID a stadium. Thats why Harristown (or whatever) in NJ just got their MLS team. With MLS trying to shy away from football fields, using college football fields just isn't a good fit. You end up with 12 different teams using the same field. There is no personal feel to the stadium that way. Taft in OKC was the location of OKC last pro soccer team, but thats obviously not a good option anymore. Why not a new stadium south of the river in OKC? It would be right near Bricktown and the new Native American Center. Or maybe in west OKC just west of Meridian? In Tulsa, how about somewhere in East Tulsa. There are plenty fields out that way. Tulsa seems to be growing only in the east anyway. To OK fans of soccer. Don't hold your breath. Neither town has grown to a large enough pop. base to support real pro teams. All either has is minor league for hockey, football, baseball, etc. Until one of the towns can support a full pro football team, there is no hope for a mls team. Its just a matter of population. So for you Tulsans, since OKC is bigger by a large margin, you'll have to sit back and wait and see if OKC can handle it. If not, then there's no hope for Tulsa.
Okay? Tulsa and OKC may not be "big enough" for bigsoccer fans or other fans who enjoy looking at census populations and metro area populations... 800,000 in the Tulsa area and 1.1 million in the OKC area... But it was MLS officials (Hunt, Abbott and co.) who were courting Tulsa officials about this time last year so evidently THEY think Tulsa is a big enough market for MLS (and OKC, after meeting with Brad Lund/Express Sports that same summer). Frankly, THOSE opinions and the opinions of possible owner/investors in both cities are what matters... Saturday night games in Dallas and San Jose that draw about 8,000 each??? I've said this time and time again, but Skelly Stadium is no more of a dump than Spartan Stadium in San Jose (also hosts a really bad WAC football team). If $10 million in private funds can help build a SSS in Tulsa, obviously a combined effort with the Univ. of Tulsa's funding can take out about 8-10 rows on one or both sides of the stadium and a grass field CAN happen. Skelly is actually a good venue for soccer simply because the fans are literally right on top of the action. Skelly has "history" and is centrally located... people from OKC love to drone on and call the place "a dump." Based on that, Wrigley Field's a "dump" too... the biggest problem would be that Skelly's capacity would be too large for MLS's business plan (22,500-seat stadiums or state of the art NFL stadiums seem to be the 2 ways MLS wants to go). It seems odd to me that we've had precious little movement in MLS in its 8 year history. Single entity has created a false stability. It's great when cities get more than a year or two to demonstrate support for an MLS team. And it's nice to see things turning around in KC. I hardly think MLS is in the best 10 cities for soccer in this country... It'd be nice to find out which cities would be best fits for the league... big market, medium-small market, medium market... can't make an omelet unless you break a few eggs.
Whether Tulsa or OKC would be a better MLS city can be debated, but some of the idiocy I see in this thread about Skelly Stadium must be addressed. - Skelly Stadium is on the campus of the University of Tulsa. It is bounded on the North and West by University property which is safe, clean, etc. The neighborhood directly south of it (Florence Park) is gentrified with property values much higher than in the suburbs. The neighborhood to the East includes many simple older homes, but is neither run down or unsafe. Skelly Stadium is in an older part of town with real character, and not in a nameless, faceless suburb. - The stadium itself is fine, although certainly could be spruced up. It obviously needs widening, but the University wants that anyway. It is not some sort of armpit as many people are insinuating. There's nothing rotting, and nothing wrong that a little renovation couldn't cure. - Skelly would only be a temporary stop for an MLS franchise. I still think there could be a SSS in the works if MLS remains interested in the city. There's been silence on MLS here since early April, and I am assuming this is due to something quietly in the works. - OKC has done great things with their downtown. However, there are plenty of things to do in Tulsa other than the two museums. There are three decent sized hotels downtown, not far from the stadium, and some additional boutique hotels. There is now quite a bar scene downtown at night. There are restaurants and clubs on Brookside and Cherry Street not far from Skelly. Finally, there's now the Oklahoma Aquarium which is less than a half hour away & zoo for families. On whether I'd go to OKC to see MLS - probably not. MLS doesn't interest me enough for a trip, but I'd support it if it were here in Tulsa. The only thing that might change my mind would be several regular season games played here.
I think it's the neighborhood west of the highway from Skelly that people talk about when they dis the location. I took a wrong turn once, and it's not the best place. Not the worst (Hey, I live in Lawton. I know slums), but no the best. Also, Skelly wouldn't make a bad temporary home, but it wouldn't do for a permanent stadium. The seating is too close, the field too narrow and there are too many seats. All things that could be remedied, but I don't know if Tulsa will wanto decrease seating too much. Sure, they don't sell out often, but they were trying to draw OSU in for a series, and they love it when they can get OU up there. Only time they sell out the place, and they love the money. So, overall, they don't want to lose too many seats, I'll bet. Besides, the press box sucks. A lot.
You are right in noting that the University will not accept a 20,000 seat stadium. 30-35K is not out of the question I'll bet, and I am certain they are interested in tearing out several rows to widen the field. They've said so. I spent many days watching the Tulsa Roughnecks at Skelly Stadium, as well as the TU football team. It needs to be refurbished but that is not insurmountable. I'm not sure why MLS is so fixated on 20,000 seat venues anyway. In the long run, a SSS would be better. I have no inside information, but I wonder if the silence over the last couple of months means that something is in the works. The last thing the mayor said was that creative ways of financing were available. He was also touting the idea of a stadium with a retractable dome for concerts and other events. Seeing that a new downtown arena is no longer part of the sales tax vote coming up in September, I wonder if they are looking at a SSS with retractable dome as an alternative to an arena? The mayor's office has said that an "arena" can be done with private financing, maybe this is concept they are working on? Or perhaps my imagination is getting the best of me. We'll just have to see.
Interesting. BTW, there are people here in bigsoccer who considered the Cotton Bowl to be a dump, too... and far too "dangerous" for the suburban folk. Now, the Burn can't even fill their state-of-the-art high school facility that only holds 9K. And their new SSS will be in Frisco, TX, home of a Texas League AA farm club that plays the Tulsa Drillers several hundred times a year (okay, not quite that many)... I remember reading a few quotes from some marketing people in Tulsa that claimed the process (especially the publication in the Tulsa World of the feasability study) was becoming "too public." I think it really depends on how close T-town is to that 7,500 season ticket request drive and what kind of commitment we see from these un-named potential owners. Seems like a multifunctional venue would be a really good compromise way to go. 22,500 with a roof could bring in the concerts and the return of the NCAA basketball tourney to Tulsa...
Who in their right mind would go to see basketball in the Superdome? At least in a 20,000 seat venue, the players might seem larger than ants.
seats at skelly... I have just heard the same rumor that TU is willing to widen the field. If true, then this puts Tulsa in a serious hunt for a mls team. Without this willingness and no apparent sss in the works, I believed Tulsa's chances were very low. I think that Skelly would be a nice venue to play in, and this would allow the city to work on a sss stadium if need be. But, a widened Skelly would be tough to beat. Personally, I like the idea a lot, and that isn't just because I live a block away. Also, USRufNex, have you heard anything about private financing? I have talked to the guys at Mac's and other places and they told me just to keep my fingers crossed.
Since I grew up in Tulsa rooting for the R'necks and now I live in the OKC area, I don't care. I'd support a team in either city. My personal preference would be a team in downtown OKC, but it isn't gonna happen... I've always thought that the East stands at Skelly Stadium were probably getting old and needed replacement (really just a guess, I've never sat on that side). Thus in my thoughts I figured TU could rebuild the East stands and in the process move them back to create a wider field... I wonder if that's what this rumor is about??? ------------------- BTW, since this is a statewide thread, I wanted to post some excerpts from today's excellent column by Berry Tramel in the OKC paper: http://www.newsok.com/cgi-bin/show_article?ID=1041699&TP=getsports The column is based on an email Berry Tramel got from Capt. Casey Reed of the 1st Btln. 179th Infantry (Okla Army Natl. Guard) currently serving in Iraq. Of course most of the Okie Guardsmen are avid fans of gridiron, hoops, and mainstream sports. However, its apparent they are getting their fill of soccer while deployed 10,000 miles from home: I presume Capt. Reed was getting the scuttlebutt about Ronaldinho and ManU. Later in the column/email, the OKARNG got to play some footy: The best news is, the 1/179 has suffered few injuries and will be headed home soon !!!