It's been a while since my last tribalism thread. Hopefully the replies (if any) will be as interesting as the last post. After 9-11 I hoped humans would finally realize that the greatest threat to their species and their planet is tribalism. Obviously I was overly optimistic -- but the worst part is even most intellectuals refuse to discuss tribalism as if the subject is a taboo. Why? Sure feelings of group pride and group loyalty create cultures and communities but these feelings also create "freedom fries", "ethnic cleansing", suicide bombers and concentration camps -- in fact these feelings reach their peak when they are expressed against another tribe. The first step to controlling tribalism is to discuss and think about it. Eventually the UN should become a world government and outlaw tribalism. But that won't work until we do this: be proud of your cultural identities but realize that your identity as a citizen of Earth supersedes city, state, nation, religion, etc (save them for football matches)...it's really not that hard...if every human can do this we won't need to worry about terrorism "national security" "sovereignity" "road maps to peace"...otherwise I'll need to continue with my War of the Worlds plan.
hmmm i think we'll need some alien race to intercede (ala Star Trek:First Contact) to realize this. it's a dance that's be ongoing for thousands of years. it ain't gonna be solved quickly. i'm not saying it is not a worhthy goal....... it is. but i won't happen in my lifetime. i'll keep my fingers crossed though.
I think a good 1st step would be for a meeting of the world's religious leaders (major & minor) to foster better communication between the religions. It's been done on a small scale but it would help for some of the more radical elements of each religion to see that their own leaders can get along with others, even so-called "enemies."
Um, how will the UN enforce its laws? The soveriegnty of nations will always preclude this. No matter how great an idea it may be. Also, the rich nations from the North are far outnumbered and will never cede power to the multitude of poorer nations from the south. That said. The way to start the process towards "one world" is to unite nations economically. By having open trade like in the U.S. (yes US, without freetrade between states Pennsylvania would have a continual border war with Maryland [they actually had such a war in the 18th Century]) and EU are moving folks across borders for jobs and having "diversity". Look at all the Finns in Sweden, or Mexicans in the US. It takes generations, but eventually you'll find one culture.
Re: Re: tribalism tribalism tribalism tribalism Our grandchildren's grandchildren will all be safely and cozily dead by then and the Metros will still be waiting 60-90 days for their new stadium, but it is happening. And I think in 100 years time that will be the great legacy of the Clinton presidency.
Up with tribalism. I'm serious. Those who advocate a one-world body governing a homomgenized planet Earth have managed to combine the very best aspects of both Stalin's and Hitler's visions. Congratulations. There- I Godwinned this thread. You can all move on now. There's nothing more to see.
Yes, but their visions included homomgenizing the rest of the world by slaugthering everyone else. Our version of homomgenizing the world involves everyone spending and buying in US dollars, drinking Budweiser and getting lung cancer from Joe Camel while watching Fear Factor.
Well, that's not a world I want to live in. <shudder> Budweiser? Joe Camel? Fear Factor? Why not Amber Bock, a big ol' Bob Marley, and Farscape? Much much better.
http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-na-trade25sep25,1,72463.story?coll=la-home-leftrail It's true that Bill Clinton was probably more of a free trader than President Harry Browne would have been. But current Democratic presidential candidates seem to be intent on adopting Herbert Hoover's economic policies.
The summer I spent in Holland I drank so much Heineken that by the end of my stay I was craving Budweiser and Miller Lite, which I can honestly say goes down easier than water.
A world government doesn't need to be homogenous. In fact it should embrace diversity within the context of the tribal hiearchy in my first post. Governments already exist on several levels: town/city, province/state, nation, potential continent-state (european union). So why not a government on a planetary level? A world government could handle problems (tribalism and consumerism) that transcend nation-states. Speaking of consumerism ... that is the problem with globalization...it is really creating a homogenous, dumb planet where everyone "is drinking Budweiser and getting lung cancer from Joe Camel while watching Fear Factor."
Just one major negative side-effect of a really good thing. Now we should all understand the protectionist French culture laws. But you're correct about diversity except it sometime leads to clashes like we're now seeing between the West and Islam.
Re: Re: tribalism tribalism tribalism tribalism Any time religious leaders meet, the radical elements tend to denounce those leaders for even stepping to the table with the others. By denouncing those leaders, they reject their authority, call them apostates and claim to be defenders of the untainted faith. Plus, how would you even get those people together, how would you decide who comes? Who would Hinduism send? For Buddhism, would you only invite the Dalai Lama or do you invite Zen leaders too or other sects of Buddhism? Only Catholics follow the Pope, so what other Christian leaders do you accept? Who would you invite from Islam? Sunni? Shi'ite? Wahabbi? Sufi?
In a Babylon 5 episode the human captain introduced the aliens ambassadors to a catholic priest, a buddhist monk, a rabbi, etc. Note the words "a catholic priest, a buddhist monk" ... not religious leaders just representatives of particular faiths.
Acts of consumption like watching Fear Factor is more than just a "major negative side-effect" it is destroying the human mind. Humans with critical thinking skills are already becoming an endangered species because more and more colleges and universities are imitating corporations.
Tribalism gets a bad rap these days. The worst horrors in the history of the world are by-products of the nation-state.
Yes, I know. Last year the University of Maryland had cable installed in 8000 dorm rooms, if you're a student living on campus at UMD you have a cable bill included in your fees and tuition. Maryland's compensation for giving COMCAST 16,000 new customers a year: A fat fee for the naming rights to their new basketball arena.
This "tribalism" you're bemoaning is just human sociology. We create groups in every level of society (and between societies) for protection and for self worth and identity. It will only end when it ceases to benefit mankind's survival and evolution. But it always has and always will. For all the billions who have died at the hands of man's fear, hatred, and stupidity...there are trillions who have survived war, famine, floods, winters, plague, wild animals, and what ever else you can think of because they banded together and killed anyone or anything that got in their way. They also leant meaning to their lives through their own distinctive cultures which may or may not have excluded everyone else on the planet. There is an undeniable darwinism at work here. It doesn't mean we are all just ants, but we are animals subject to the laws of nature. The idea that peace and love should reign worldwide is all well and good until the food runs out, or jobs get scarce, or you get the plague. Human conflict on the grand scale results mostly from a lack of resources or the fear of the lack of recources. Utopian visions of "World Government" are not only implausible they're entirely misplaced. The mechanics of such a government could only result in widespread oppression, destruction, and bureaucratic slop. I won't even get into the creepy Orwellian aspects of it. The greatest evolution in humanity's sociological thought is not "peace at all costs". I'd say it's the recognition of the value of individual human life and experience within the group. "Tribalism" is part of who we are. It's part of how we idenitfy ourselves. Sometimes this group thought manifests itself in hatred or violence. It's unfortunate, but it's the flip side of the same coin. Does this mean if you're Irish you HAVE to bomb British police barracks? Obviously not. But those who bombed the barracks certainly felt they did it for their group, and the bomb victims died for their group. You cannot seperate it. So what are you proposing? Lets have just one society, culture and belief system?
One of the major problems with our societies is people pushing thier ideas where they don't belong. Tribalism is a choice that no one should ever be denied. Religion is for the most part the root cause of wars, unjust laws, persecutions and just about every other bad thing in our world. But that is no reason to ban religion. Choice. It's nobodys business but your own. Until you affect a non concenting adult. Being part of a tribe, religion etc. is your choice and ok as long as you don't try to push it off on someone who doesn't want to be part of it. Then it's a problem and should be challenged.
Actually, in the 20th century, active athiesm made it the world's bloodiest and most turbulent period. Stalin, Pol Pot, Hitler, etc.
Re: Re: tribalism tribalism tribalism tribalism Yes and no. World governments in science fiction stories like Star Trek and Babylon 5 may be possible models: nations and nation-states exist but they all answer to a United Earth Government because these humans embrace diversity yet realize they are all citizens of Earth. The only difference (besides technology) between sci fi realities and ours is the presence of aliens. The pre-war Iraq debate was actually a preview of a world government -- a kind of emerging global democracy -- but this system can only work if Earth's leaders grow up instead of acting like spoiled brats ("national interest" "sovereignity", etc.).
Re: Re: Re: tribalism tribalism tribalism tribalism The aliens provide the crucial difference which makes those world governments sci fi fantasies and not reality. Yes, everyone in the United Federation of Planets gets along really well and they all celebrate their differences while sustaining peace and prosperity. Please note, however, that the existence of the replicator removes any concerns or strife which could arise from limited resources. In the Star Trek future, everyone (in the Federation) has enough of everything so there's nothing to fight over. On the other hand, the tribalism among humans has been displaced, and instead becomes conflict between humans and alien races - Romulan, Borg, Cardassian, etc. Even blatant prejudice is accepted and justified, because it's no longer based on racial differences within the human species, but on actual differences among alien races. E.g. to say that Jews are greedy is a stereotype, but to say that Ferengi are greedy is simply true. In fact, Star Trek simply takes the conflicts we currently have on Earth and repackages them as interstellar instead of international. As a utopian vision of the future, it's pretty lacking.