Training Compensation now in Practice

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by truefan420, Apr 18, 2019.

  1. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    I thought the fifa rules specifically state that S/TC fees are not payable if both clubs are in the same country so a player could move from an independent club to an MLS one and not be entitled to any fees.

    This is what I think happened to Chris Richards. Would the smaller training club be entitled to compensation from Bayern if they weren’t pay-to-play?

    Along the same lines, could an elite foreign club set up an independent club in the US to then sign an MLS academy player for free and then sell the rights later to its parent club?
     
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  2. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    What are your top three suggestions? Thanks.
     
  3. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    There are examples. Adams goes from RB NY to RB Leipzig for a fee.

    Or MIxx disappoints for NYC, starts going on loan to Goteborg, signs for Man City, goes to Goteborg and then Ulsan.

    The former is you want the player and do a clubby swap. The latter is you want to dodge some roster rule so you swap him to another team in your umbrella lacking those constraints. Roster problem solved. Now, technically Mixx left on a free, but they basically loaned him out until the contract ran, then moved him to another team to continue the loans. Both basically within the same ownership.

    Also, the FCD - Bayern thing was not a random choice. There is an explicit partnership that has also seen Cannon and Pomykal go there to train. It is described as an exchange but in terms of quality and the practical way it seems to be playing out, looks like one way traffic. Houston has routinely bought players from Olimpia (Honduras). Why couldn't you make such an outgoing pipeline? Rather than the Dynamo having to shop Elis, you make a deal with Bayern to be your exclusive outlet. Mind you, a wise team would dial that back.

    I don't know if anyone ever makes the "jump" suggested by the names but there are "Barca" and "Solar Chelsea" branded teams in traditional club soccer here. At least for CFC, pre-transfer-ban it should prompt the joke that they promise to bring along the best players to their U21 team and then buy 3 outside guys to play your position on the first team, at which point you are loaned to Southend United or whatever.
     
  4. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    MLS' take:

    "Under the RSTP, a club is compensated when a player, prior to the end of the season of his 23rd birthday, signs his first contract to play professionally in another country (called “Training Compensation”), and when a player is subsequently transferred – at any age – between clubs in different countries before the expiration of his current contract in exchange for a transfer fee (called a “Solidarity Payment”)."

    "Under the FIFA Regulations, when a player registers as a professional for the first time in a country other than the one where he did his training, the club with which he registers is responsible for paying Training Compensation to every club that contributed to his training, starting from the season of his 12th birthday through the season of his 21st birthday. Additionally, Training Compensation is due on a player’s subsequent international transfer through the season of his 23rd birthday to his immediately prior professional club."

    Separate thing-
    "Under the FIFA Regulations, any time that a professional player is transferred (whether on a temporary or on a permanent basis) from a club in one FIFA member association (i.e., a federation) to a club in another federation during the course of his contract, up to five percent of the transfer fee is to be withheld and paid by the club receiving the player proportionally to the club(s) involved in that player’s training during the years between his 12th and 23rd birthdays. Unlike Training Compensation, which is only paid for players who have not yet reached the end of their age-23 season, Solidarity Payments will be due for the duration of a player’s professional career, any time he is transferred between federations while under contract and a transfer fee is paid."

    ***

    "Domestic signings do not entitle a domestic youth club to receive Training Compensation under the FIFA Regulations. Only where the player develops in one country and signs in another would Training Compensation be due."

    "The obligation to pay Training Compensation will fall on the first club that signs a player to play professionally. The obligation to make Solidarity Payments falls on the club that pays the transfer fee [for your career]."

    https://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2019/04/18/faqs-about-training-compensation-and-solidarity-payments
     
  5. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    http://www.espn.com/soccer/major-le...rity-payments-over-yedlins-tottenham-transfer

    suggests MLS is seeking training payments because we are now producing players who are worthy of signing a first contract abroad. It's an income stream that I assume was weighed against the costs buying in will add to acquisitions.

    says Tottenham won the Yedlin case vs a traditional club after making 3 arguments:
    1. record keeping (sounds goofy, I mean, surely we know where he played);
    2. traditional club is not a "training club" because of non profit business model;
    3. US child labor laws.

    I'd add a 4th, which would be amateurism. A small percentage of players at either traditional clubs or even MLS academies ever actually go pro. So one concern would be maintaining amateur status for NCAA/NAIA/NJCAA.
     
  6. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    There is no question that over the first 20 years of MLS, the league would be LOSING money if they became part of the training compensation/solidarity payment structure. So they chose to neither receive or pay these payments.

    But in the past two years MLS clubs are producing young players that Euro clubs covet. In high numbers. Just this year Real Salt Lake has lost Ledesma to PSV, Soto to Hannover, and Taylor Booth to Bayern Munich. The Galaxy have just lost Llanez to Wolfsburg and Mendez to Freiburg.

    So now we're getting to the point that MLS wants to enter the system. It all makes perfect sense.

    I saw discussion of the Bayern-FCD partnership above. That's very different from the NYCFC/Man City or NYRB/Leipzig cases in which the teams have common owners. FCD and Bayern simply have a youth development partnership. FCD had Chris Richards under contract. They sent him on loan to Bayern, and there was a transfer option for Bayern as part of that deal. Bayern chose to exercise it. And it was a pretty hefty fee. Something like 1.5 million with a 40% sell on fee. [There's no real difference between that and Erik Palmer-Brown going on loan from SKC to Porto. There was a transfer option in that loan deal as well. Porto just chose NOT to exercise it.]

    Obviously, MLS clubs don't actually want to receive training compensation. They'd prefer signing the elite players to contracts, and then selling them for big bucks to clubs abroad. Like Richards and Alphonso Davies.
     
  7. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    One thing I'm not clear on - will MLS now pay T/SC on the young non-US players that they are bringing in from other countries?
    • Wouldn't Pity Martinez fall into this bucket going forward as he trained in Argentina?
    • Almiron wouldn't have a payment as his first foreign country was Argentina. Correct?
     
  8. Bob Morocco

    Bob Morocco Member+

    Aug 11, 2003
    Billings, MT
    Yes.
     
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  9. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    I think this bodes well for the USSF/MLS partnership as it's a clear sign that MLS views itself more as a developer of young talent and [reading into this a bit] that they will soon slow the pace of acquiring young foreign talent as MLS wouldn't pursue this policy unless they thought it would make them money.
     
  10. deejay

    deejay Member+

    Feb 14, 2000
    Tarpon Springs, FL
    Club:
    Jorge Wilstermann
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    Yes, and it makes sense now because MLS is paying big transfer fees. T/SC is a drop in the bucket these days but it would do wonders for the academies.
     
  11. Dutch amateur clubs are pay to play, but not in the US sense. These amateur clubs are foundations and have members that in fact run the club. To play in the club, unlike the ones in the States these are all generations clubs, you have to be a member and pay a yearly contribution. So these clubs arenot an income generator of an owner.
    An analysis of how profitable TC/SP is for Dutch clubs has been done by Dutch paper NRC:
    https://www.nrc.nl/apps/voetbal/kaart/
    https://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2018/10/08/het-gevonden-geld-voor-amateurclubs-a2410380
    https://www.nrc.nl/voetbaltransfers/
    https://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2009/07/17/opleiding-speler-bij-transfer-betalen-11756187-a1324036
     
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  12. deejay

    deejay Member+

    Feb 14, 2000
    Tarpon Springs, FL
    Club:
    Jorge Wilstermann
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    This actually isn't too far from what most pay-to-play clubs are like over here. The issue though is likely in the quantity of membership. There aren't hundreds of members paying, there's only the families of the kids receiving training.
     
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  13. The biggest clubs have thousands of members. There are also multisport clubs, that are really huges.
     
  14. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    Off the top of my head I think they should provide a structure that incentivizes people to invest in the game, develop players, and creates competition.

    1. Provide clarity on the structure of a complete professional system. If MLS wants to run it then they need to invest in a way that completely covers the needs of the game. That would look a lot like the baseball system where they dont rely heavily on college. Since I dont think the owners who just want free money would be willing to field 4+ teams all with academies, the only answer is promotion/relegation. I am ok with either model as long as it is done right.
    2. Take a strong on training/solidarity comp. Potentially providing subsidies to clubs that dont want to be pay to play so they can participate. They should encourage MLS to help out financially as well.
    3. Encourage foreign clubs to create youth teams to allow them to develop our players and provide competition for MLS.
     
  15. RalleeMonkey

    RalleeMonkey Member+

    Aug 30, 2004
    here
    Basically, he's saying "sure, we could train more kids, give more opportunities to the under privileged .... but I wouldn't want to be bothered. I've got my life set up now, running smoothly."
     
  16. RalleeMonkey

    RalleeMonkey Member+

    Aug 30, 2004
    here
    I'm confused. Isn't the solidarity payment for cases where the guy would move on for free? If the guy is sold, is there still a solidarity payment? That doesn't make sense.
     
  17. Sorry, but you're wrong. Solidarity payments come from the payed international transfer. If a player moves on a free, there's no transfer sum, so there cannot be a % of it. The solidarity payment goes to former clubs that were in his learning years his club.
     
  18. Magikfute

    Magikfute Member

    Mar 9, 2001
    Lancaster, PA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Not for nothing, but I think that your interpretation of this quote and the position of the club is inaccurate and unfair. If you haven't already done so, I suggest you read the full article. The club's stance is that they are not owed any "compensation" in this case because Christian 1) payed for his training as he went and 2) put in the work to make himself in large part. They are proud of the contribution they may have had towards his success, but they feel it would be disingenuous to claim they are owed some sort of debt in these circumstances. They have already been compensated for their role in training Christian, and they believe going after more money undermines the messages of humility and integrity that they are trying to send to the young athletes they train.

    Frankly, I find their stance to be very reasonable and refreshing.

    I live in the area, and while I am not affiliated with PA Classics directly, I am familiar with the way they operate as a club. I'm of the opinion that there's a lot to improve upon when it comes to the way youth soccer operates in this country, but this club is one of the good ones. I personally know several kids that have gone through the club either for free or very reduced fees, and I know of at least two of those kids that have gone on to receive soccer scholarships in college. These are kids that would have had a very hard time paying for and attending college otherwise, and I think it's highly unlikely they would have been noticed or been deemed good enough without PA Classic's help.

    I think it's fair and right to point out the deficiencies of the system we have and to look for ways to change it to make it more democratic and inclusive. But I caution against villainizing those actors within the existing system that are trying to do the right thing. That won't help us get to a better place.
     
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  19. RalleeMonkey

    RalleeMonkey Member+

    Aug 30, 2004
    here
    Duh.

    J/C had posted: "Second, I could understand the first sale if you were on a professional deal."

    He was referencing a hypothetical where an MLS academy had trained up a player and then sold them. If you are the seller, why would you be entitled to a solidarity/training fee?

    If you lose someone on a free, the solidarity/training fee comes into the play when that team (the one that got them on a free) sells the player.

    For example, Puli went from Classics PA to Dortmund without compensation to CPA. Essentially on a free. Now that Dortmund is selling Chelsea, CPA is entitled to a Training/Solidarity fee.

    MLS clubs have lost players on a free. When those clubs sell, they should get a T/S fee.

    If the MLS club had sold they player, why would they get a solidarity payment.

    Try to keep up.
     
  20. RalleeMonkey

    RalleeMonkey Member+

    Aug 30, 2004
    here
    I read the article.

    He wouldn't have to use the money to fund an entire new team or build a lighted field. He expresses pure and noble ideals. And, those pure and noble ideas are keeping him from having a huge scholarship fund for players from less wealthy families. Or, they could lower their fees. That might make the difference in some kids playing, or not.

    People are always bitching and moaning about PtoP. Well, someone has to pay for kids to play. The only source of payments for clubs that are not part of a pro team, is parents .... or nothing. Declining to take $500,000 to $1 million dollars that is rightfully the clubs, out of noble principles effectively denies an opportunity for training for a whole bunch of kids. Hopefully other clubs do not follow this silly example.
     
  21. Dude, you're basically posting the same thing I did. Try to read what I posted.
     
  22. RalleeMonkey

    RalleeMonkey Member+

    Aug 30, 2004
    here
    Then why did you say that I "got it wrong"?

    There's no payment on the free. Then a payment when freebee guy gets sold.

    If the 1st transfer of the guy's rights is a paid transfer, why would there be a S/T payment?
     
  23. I think we misunderstood each other. I read your post I reacted to as you expecting a SP in case of a free transfer. I didnot understand it as SP from later transfers after that going on a free.
     
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  24. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    A few clubs have started getting solidarity payments.
    I don't know about this source, and how he knows these numbers
    One thing to note is how little these solidarity payments are.
    Its really not worth all of the endless discussions. In no way, shape, or form will MLS clubs in the US get back what the invest when players like Mendez, Llanez, Ledezma, etc. leave on free transfers.
     
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  25. I think those discussions arose from the faulty premises that clubs like Ajax etc. have the MO to develop players and sell them on for a profit. Those clubs have their academies as a means of providing the first team as much as possible with home grown quality players, as that's cheaper than the epl way of buying them, which we can't afford anyway.
     

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