Toronto FC: an insight into their problems

Discussion in 'Toronto FC' started by deepm, Jun 7, 2009.

  1. deepm

    deepm Member

    May 13, 2009
    Mississauga
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    For those of you who want radical changes with TFC, especially the firing of Mo Johnson, there are some things you need to know about how TFC is operated.

    I'm not going to discuss the on-field problems b/c that speaks for itself, and there are other factors involved also.

    1) TFC is run by MLSE (Maple Leafs Sports and Entertainment). For those of you that follow hockey, you know how dreadful MLSE is at running sports teams. A few of you have already alluded to MLSE doing a dreadful job so I thought I'd elaborate. For those of you that don't know...

    MLSE is run by a group of a** clowns whose ONE AND ONLY ambition is to turn a profit year in and year out. They could care less about winning a championship. The investors have final say on who plays for TFC...not Mo. They do not want to pay big salaries to build a successful club. Sure they'll pay a few big salaries (e.g. DeRo, Guevara, Vitti), but that isn't enough for a winning team. They will make Mo the sacrificial lamb this season if tfc doesn't make the playoffs and TFC will continue to stink with a new GM.


    2) The DP. Many of you are saying...."Hey Mo...where is that promised DP?" Well guess who has final say on the signing of a DP? No other than the board of MLSE. You seriously think they want to pay big time money for a DP rather than buy a new car or gynormous flat screen tv, or a boat? If you really want a DP I propose a rally outside of MLSE's board of governor's office demanding a DP.
    All this going on the radio and saying Mo's not giving us the DP is not fair to Mo and typical of fans who don't know how MLSE runs their teams.


    3) The FieldTurf. I just need to point a few things out that some people don't read about. Both the Toronto government and MLSE are to blame here.

    For starters, the Toronto gov. gave the land for bmo field in exchange for the stipulation that they wanted to use the facility in the winter for community events. Thus TFC had to install FieldTurf. Last season the gov. stated they don't mind if TFC put grass...as long as...OH ANOTHER STIPULATION...they build a facility that gov. of Toronto can use in the winter.

    You seriously think MLSE fat cats want to spend potential profits on building a new facility so BMO gets grass? Get real.

    As for the argument that other teams manage to win @ BMO. Here's the thing...TFC plays like 17 home games. Their opponents only have to play one...or 2 at the most...games at BMO. So they could care less if they lose. One game and then it's back to playing on grass.

    TFC trains on grass all week at another facility and then play on the turf. The turf outright sucks. Martin Nash of VAN and Edson Buddle have both gone on the record, along with DeRo, stating their displeasure for the turf:

    Nash:
    "It's the worst turf I've played on," said Nash. "It's really bad. It's really bouncy and doesn't roll true. It's not the right type of turf for soccer. It's more of an American football turf.

    Buddle:
    "I had a rough time when I was here, and to get a goal here on the (artificial) turf -- which I do not like --

    Darren Huckerby refused to play for TFC b/c of the turf. Ronnie O'Brien requested a trade b/c of the turf.

    Point is it kills TFC's game and MLSE can care less about how they do as long as they turn a profit each year.

    ***I am aware there are a few other clubs that play on artifical surface like NYRB.


    4) A winning team. Let's all take a deep breath and realise TFC is only in their third season, and championship teams aren't built overnight. It takes time.

    Let's take the Columbus Crew for example. Not taking shots here, ONLY STATING FACTS HERE. Congrats on winning the Supporters shield and MLS cup. That was impressive.

    The Crew won their first ever MLS cup last season after so many years of being in the league. Prior to last year they had finished at the bottom of the East 3 straight years.
    In 2007, they finsihed with 9W-11L-10W...just above TFC.
    2006: 8-15L-9T...good for last in the East
    2005: 11-16L-5T...good for last in the east

    Ask Crew fans how that felt.

    I'm not saying this is a model to follow but these kind of things happen in soccer.
    There hasn't beeen one powerhouse team in MLS the past few years except for the Dynamo. They won MLS cup 2 straight years prior to last year.
    And The New England Revolution lost MLS cup 3 straight seasons and have yet to win the cup.



    So this all boils down to the fact that MLSE are not doing a good job operating a winning team.

    There are over 10,000 season ticket holders and another 13-14,000
    waiting in line for a chance at seaon tix.
    MLSE makes a boat load of money from seson ticket holders. They can care less about what the fans want as long as the fans buy season tickets.

    Fans are going to have to rally in front of these rich a** clowns and make demands if they want to see changes.

    Demands like getting real grass put in...put the money out for a DP.

    The players can't speak out b/c it will cost them their job so it's really up to the fans who give MLSE their money each year by buying tickets, buying jerseys, souveneirs, etc.

    MLSE are only interested in the bottom line and that's profit. TFC fans are the ones who have to call for changes to be made or else it will be a drought like columbus experienced.


    *I'll discuss the roster limitations thare handcuffing TFC later
     
  2. nfitz

    nfitz Member

    Aug 20, 2007
    Toronto
    I think the biggest problem is fans who feel they have some kind of entitlement.

    This is MLS after all. Some seem to think that we should be seeing EPL level football here, which is decades away, if ever.

    And with the salary cap, etc., in place, no team is going to be outstanding.

    Sure there are issues ... but I think that the whole thing has been blown completely out of proportion.
     
  3. deepm

    deepm Member

    May 13, 2009
    Mississauga
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    True true.

    Beckham even mentioned it will be 10-15 years before MLS comes close to being on the European football level.

    I don't know what kind of talent people expect Mo to bring in really.

    MLS has a $2 million and a bit more salary cap.
    Plus the most a player can make is $400,000.

    I don't know how many good soccer players want to play for the low salary MLS teams provide.

    The problem with bringing in quality MLS players is that you need to trade, and Mo doesn't have draft picks right now, or any quality bench players to trade.
     
  4. ratty32

    ratty32 New Member

    Apr 2, 2008
    The above post is right your not going to get high level of talent but when a team that should be better looks worse then they did in the first year theres a problem and something has to be done.
     
  5. wpg_tfc

    wpg_tfc New Member

    Mar 28, 2008
    Winnipeg
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Yep, MLSE is a big concern for the fans. Without one or two owners dedicated to footy, the bottom line is the only factor for the board.
    I'm wondering how Van-city is going to perform when they join MLS in a couple of years. Another Chicago Fire, perhaps?
     
  6. smenge

    smenge New Member

    Apr 5, 2008
    toronto
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    TFC does not have to play like Juventus or the Dutch national team for me to support them. But the way this team plays right now, they are not even MLS calibre. Losing to Vancouver the way they did, and constantly losing or playing poorly on the road, and now doing likewise in Toronto places this team near the bottom rung of any pro soccer club anywhere on the planet. Forget Real Madrid, MLSE should invite a bunch of Serie C or third tier English teams over here to demonstrate to MO and the players how the game should be played. There has been no progress in my mind since 2007. Columbus was playing shit and could not attract fans, so they went out and got the MLS man of the year. That is what TFC needs. One, or two outstanding players just to bring a little exitement to this otherwise drab, semi-pro club....oh, and did i forget something, yea, FIRE Mo.
     
  7. TheChoker

    TheChoker Member

    May 6, 2007
    Toronto
    Let me state firstly that I'm no fan of MLSE...every sports fan dream is a billionaire owner who loves to spend money, but I'm going to call a spade a spade here:

    58% of MLSE is owned by the Ontario teachers, a group I would hardly consider rich.

    Complaining about a Pension Plan trying to make money is very funny actually. That's like me complaining when I get my RRSP statement that I made money.
     
  8. atlanticTFCfan

    atlanticTFCfan Moderator
    Staff Member

    Mar 14, 2007
    Sydney, Nova Scotia
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Not now, they're not. Apparently, math is not one of their fortes.
     
  9. v00d00daddy

    v00d00daddy Member

    May 22, 2007
    Toronto
    You're right about some fans.

    This fan thinks that I am entitled to see a team that can compete with other MLS teams. That's all.

    Oh yeah, I almost forgot. I also think I'm entitled to see TFC compete witha couple of USL teams.

    Too much to ask?
     
  10. RetreadFC

    RetreadFC Member

    Sep 8, 2008
    Oshawa
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    A well-argued post. I don't agree with it all, but the general thesis is correct. There is no point blaming Mo. His hands are tied by the amount of freedom given to him. You think he doesn't want a better team?

    Look no further than the Leafs. A team that makes more money than almost all other NHL teams, yet consistently loses and trades away its top players.
     
  11. Polygong

    Polygong Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 8, 2007
    Toronto
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Yes MLSE is primarily concerned about making money. But here's the thing: a successful team makes more money than does an unsuccessful team. Extra revenue from playoff games comes to mind (both in stands and TV) as a key point. More success means great reputation, means more sales of merchandise.

    You may say that profit can be made by going cheap on players, but the Leafs' payroll is competitive with the rest of the NHL, so that blows that theory.

    As was said on another thread, MLSE have done a good job setting up this club and getting it out there and branding it in a true soccer style. They took a chance on something that nobody else would touch.

    We're a third year club, and we are FAR better than we were either last year or the year before.
     
  12. kaos1970

    kaos1970 Member

    May 2, 2008
    Halifax
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    If the Leafs payroll is in line with the rest of the league then they are paying way too much for they players they have. Do they even have anyone on the tem that is worth more than a million a year? Dreadful!

    Did MLSE really do such a great job branding this club or did the desire and passion of the soccer community in Toronto do it for them? People have waited endlessly for proffessional soccer to return and MLSE provided them a club. Aside from that the fans have done virtually everything else to market this club.

    There seems to be so many people who think MLSE can simply do no wrong. Why is that?
     
  13. BHTC Mike

    BHTC Mike Member+

    Apr 12, 2006
    Burlington, ON
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Yes. We're not called the Crew, or Revolution, or (thank gawd!) Inter Toronto, or the Toronto SuperKixx or anything else equally stupid.

    Yes, that definately contributed to. It doesn't have to be an either or proposition. MLSE recognized the passion of the soccer community and took the club's identity in that direction. It was a good business decision but let's not forget that it went against the grain of soccer marketing on this continent at the time.

    I'd take issue with the "virtually everything" bit but even if I was to accept that it's important to note that fans have had an influence here because MLSE lets them. MLSE, through Paul Beirne, made a specific point of listening to the fans - before a single ticket was sold! - and went to great lengths to present the game in the way that those fans wanted to see. Have there been missteps? Absolutely, but look around the rest of the league. Until Seattle copied the model started in here there had only been one (DC), maybe two (Chicago), clubs that attempted to sell soccer the way MLSE did. And MLSE did it better.

    Whatever, I'll be critical when it's called for.

    If we fail to win the Canadain Championship (again), which looks almost certain, and they stick with Mo I'll call them on that.

    If they raise prices to the point I can't afford it they'll lose me as a fan.

    If they ban flags, standing, and the liberal attitude towards unrulyness in the South End then I'll have to consider whether I'm still interested. (FWIW I could have lived without those things before the team started but now that I've grown accustomed to it I wouldn't want it taken away.)

    If they fail to sign a DP this summer I'll continue to argue, as I have, that they're being cheap and that they're not matching the fans' commitment to the team with their own money.

    But what I don't accept is that after two and a half years one can definatively state that MLSE has ANYTHING to do with the on-field problems that we continue to experience.

    At this point we're a pretty average though horribly inconsistent MLS team who are at least two key players away from actually being amongst the VERY FEW teams you could call good. Other than the question of a DP, and it's not clear what the hold up is there - could be Mo; could be MLSE - Mo Johnston works under the exact same roster restrictions as every other MLS team. Even the issue of Canadians has taken a back seat since we got DeRo and Serioux. In fact, considering the allocation we had to use this year from being crap, trading for it constantly, and selling Edu it could be argued that Mo has one of the better stocked arsenals in MLS in terms of team building assets. If HE failed to build a team that can win the Canadian Championship and compete into the play-offs IT'S ON HIM not MLSE. It'd be their job to tell him that his services are no longer required.

    Blaming MLSE is like blaming the weather! It's lazy and intellectually dishonest and often seems to rely on an ignorance of the rest of MLS but too much superficial knowledge of the Toronto sports scene.

    And for the record the original post in this thread had enough straight forward FACTUAL errors that I can't believe anyone's taking it seriously. Now I just have to figure out how I got sucked into this thread... and defending MLSE!:eek::confused::(
     
  14. smenge

    smenge New Member

    Apr 5, 2008
    toronto
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    The teachers pension fund has one or two reps on the mlse board of directors. It is not the same as your rrsp. These cronies are interested in the shareholders interests, nothing else matters. MLSE is an odd incarnation in that it is a private unlisted corporation directed with majority ownership by the teachers fund. The guys who call the shots in all this are the same boobs who ruined hockey for us here in Toronto, so don't expect them to do anything supportive of the soccer team as long as it makes money and the stadium is full.

    These same jerks dump billions into a large condo development at the same time their prize possession, the Leafs, go four years without a playoff berth. Four years in a row, they have never done that before. Not even that bastard Harold Balard who went to jail for tax evasion/fraud, who worked with scalpors at the gardens for decades, who sat by and did nothing while pedophiles roamed his building, not even that terrible period, was as bad as it is now, in terms of the teams performance. Even Ballard the complete oaf had an interest in the teams performance that these current assholes simply do not share. As long as mlse owns TFC, this team is doomed.
     
  15. TheChoker

    TheChoker Member

    May 6, 2007
    Toronto
    4 out of the 8 board members are from the OTP fund. Tanenbaum is the executive director...making it 9 total.
     
  16. kaos1970

    kaos1970 Member

    May 2, 2008
    Halifax
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    BHTC Mike

    I can't argue with any of what you have said for you bring up some very valid points. MLSE knows one thing very well and you outlined it with most of your statements. They know how to run a successful and profitable business. They have done their research and have made good business decisions time and time again and this club is testament to that. IMO they didn't take that big of a leap going against the grain with their marketing decisions. They saw what didn't work(every other MLS franchise) and they listened to what their potential clients (fans) wanted and that was an atmosphere that was similar to the many succesful clubs in Europe. They knew that this same passion existed right here and they took it and ran with it. I give MLSE props for one thing.....they are fantastic at seeing opportunities and making money. What they are not good at is hiring club managers who can build winning/successful teams (another thing they have proven time and again) and for that they should be ashamed and are completely responsible.

    Sorry if I dragged you back into this thread or arguement. I am not really arguing with you but merely stating that MLSE does have some ownership in all of this. It sounds to me as if you feel the same so......
     
  17. TheChoker

    TheChoker Member

    May 6, 2007
    Toronto
    The thing I don't understand is the hate MLSE gets as owners of TFC.

    You are doing MLSE a disservice if you don't research the other ownership groups in the MLS. Fans in Colorado, Dallas, New England, New York and Columbus would love to have ownership like the MLSE. Most of the "old school" owners in the MLS could give a rats ass about supporters groups, game day experince, etc. Guys like Kraft in NE & Kroenke (sp?) in Colorado can give a rat's ass about their MLS franchise.

    I cannot say the same about MLSE, they "get it" but it seems to me we have a great deal of fans in Toronto that don't realize the great thing we have.
     
  18. smenge

    smenge New Member

    Apr 5, 2008
    toronto
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    You are comparing 20,000 soccer fans/supporters at BMO with 6000 soccer moms in Colorado? Those cities you reference do not have a problem with ownership, they have a problem with prof soccer: it is not on the radar.
     
  19. kaos1970

    kaos1970 Member

    May 2, 2008
    Halifax
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    So obviously they are not worried about their bottom lines or they are soccer mom kinda people and will stay true to what they personally believe the sport and atmosphere should be. It's their money. That crap won't fly here. We all know it.

    Sure we have a great thing but it would be better if we had a group that owned the club that was as passionate about quality football as they are they are about lining their pockets. And as Smenge has stated, I am uncertain about how much they really care about this franchise as long as it is turning big profits for them. They deal with supporter's groups and have the game day experience because they worry about their bottom line. They know what will eventually happen without it.

    Happy to have the club......not so happy that the owners really only care about how much revenue comes in at days end!
     
  20. BHTC Mike

    BHTC Mike Member+

    Apr 12, 2006
    Burlington, ON
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    That's probably fair. I don't follow either sport closely though but I think they've taken steps to rectify that with Burke at the Leafs and Coangelo (sp?) at the Raptors though. Both at least have good reputations and histories of success. If they fail I'm not sure it'd be MLSE's fault at that point. Though with the Leafs you never know; we've all heard the stories of how the board interferes in personnel decisions.

    The only question for me is whether or not they're willing to drop the hammer on Mo if we don't see an improvement this season. I'm really pissed about what has happened in the NCC and believe he needs to be held accountable. Unfortunately we really don't have a critical soccer media in this city yet so it's not like there'll be much pressure on them.

    I can even give them a pass though about hiring him. In all probability they really didn't know anything about the game, had know idea how successful things would be, and I can see how a fast talker like Mo could have convinced them he was the right man for the job even if his rep wasn't too great after his time in charge in New York.

    Now though, after two and a half years it's time for them to show that they do care about results for TFC and that mediocrity will not be accepted. They've also had the oppurtunity to see what it takes to be successful in this league and headhunt suitable replacements. If they fail and bring in someone unproven with substandard resume then I'll criticize them. Doing it now seems like overkill though (and has a lot more to do with what's happened in other sports).

    No worries, I agree that we're really not that far apart. It's just comments like this that drive me crazy:

    Smenge, you've got all sorts of reasons for hating MLSE but that's just fatalistic nonsense.
     
  21. TheChoker

    TheChoker Member

    May 6, 2007
    Toronto
    You're unknowingly backing up my argument. There are soccer fans in Colorado...maybe not enough to fill a 20K stadium, but there are. Many of them have turned their backs on the Rapids after ownership has pushed aside traditional fans in the pursuit of non-traditional fans (aka "soccer moms").

    Fans all over the MLS have been told to sit down, no flags, etc by ownership. Supporter's Group's have approached ownership in these cities and have been basically told to take a hike.

    Agreed, professional soccer may not be on the radar in some of these cities but ownership has done nothing to nurture what's there to begin with. Continuing to use Colorado as an example, if ownership had a clue they could have built the fan base of traditional fans...they've had 15 years to do it. Kroenke's a part owner of Arsenal for Christ's sake, and he still does crap for soccer fans in Colorado.

    There are numerous examples all over the MLS. What the MLSE did was usher in a new era of ownership in the MLS that fans of the old guard would love to have and owners of the new guard are trying hard to emulate.

    That's what I was getting at, TFC fans don't seem to get this point. We have it good.
     
  22. TheChoker

    TheChoker Member

    May 6, 2007
    Toronto
    Real Madrid & River Plate? Fans have demanded top tier teams for the friendlies and MLSE come through in my books. Now, fans have to put their money where there mouths are and buy tickets.

    If MLSE is left holding the bill on the Real friendly you can guarantee it's back to Pachuca & Indepentente next year. Yes, they are in it for the money...who the hell said they were philanthropists?
     
  23. smenge

    smenge New Member

    Apr 5, 2008
    toronto
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nobody is complaining about Real or River. MLSE did not single handedly go out and ask these teams to show up here. Look around the league and you will find similar friendlies. Except in those cities, you don't have to cough up after you already coughed up,.
     
  24. lerxst

    lerxst Member

    May 23, 2007
    Toronto
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Please show me a single post that equates the overall level of talent in MLS with the problems that ail this club? I think you've missed the point.

    The two major points of contention are 1. our dismal performance in yet another NCC where we stand to be knocked out again and 2. MLSE's handling of the friendly with Real Madrid. Coupled with our continued inability to score and our lack of interest in acquiring a DP in what is now our third season, one would hope that you have at least some understanding our frustration.
     
  25. alexb746

    alexb746 New Member

    Mar 24, 2009
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    I still can't believe we traded Conor Casey for Riley O'Neill. We traded an experienced striker with a good track record in Germany's second division. He was on the fringe of the Bundesliga. Now he has 8 goals in 10 games for Colorado.

    Can someone explain to me how this move can happen if Mo is such a good judge of talent? Casey would be perfect for this team that badly needs another target man... or needs to play better with the ball at their feet. Both would really be ideal in my opinion, but I guess beggers can't be choosers.

    For all our complaining, the problem with this team is actually quite simple: they are not playing well. We can complain all we want about Mo and MLSE, but the bottom line is that the players are not focused and they are not executing. They know it and so do we.
     

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