Top fifteen untapped markets (and more)

Discussion in 'MLS: Expansion' started by chapka, Feb 9, 2009.

  1. Chef Medeski

    Chef Medeski Member

    Sep 25, 2008
    New York City FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Ok this is where I know you are wrong. First of all, no one beats, I repeat no one beats Montreal, who sells out their entire season in the NHL's largest stadium in one single day before the season even begins. Contrast that to the Red Wings who have $8 gate tickets on the day of. There is no such thing as a day of game ticket in Montreal. So, you are wrong plain and simple. And higher prices? $8? What?!

    I cannot argue the rest of the teams because I do not follow but I can tell you what I do know and Detroit for all its size, is a city in slow decline. Lack of jobs, lack of disposable cash, I can buy tickets to see the Stanley Cup team in a city of 4.5 million for less than $10 including tax. That is HORRENDOUS. No way around it.

    I don't think its an identity think as much as a, we like to watch a winning team. I'm sure they are all happy Canadians, they just tire of a team that is.... what 13th again in the Conference?
  2. blazindw

    blazindw Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jul 30, 2007
    Washington, DC
    Real Madrid
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  3. Chef Medeski

    Chef Medeski Member

    Sep 25, 2008
    New York City FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Great. Lets include Road Games, Detroit pulls in on average a couple more hundred per away game but Montreal pulls in over 1 thousand more people at home every game. Thus if you want to do the overall, once again, Montreal takes it. And road games have nothing to do with the domestic market for a sport....:rolleyes:. You are an original six team, you better pull on the road.

    They are among the best, they are not THE BEST like you stated so clearly to try to prove a point.

    And the difference between sold-out and selling the same day is quite significant because it shows that if we had a larger stadium, we would have an even larger attendance differential from Detroit. Its only one thousand because our arena is only that size. If it was up to 25k, I promise all the games would be sold-out, probably still in the beginning of the year.

    Sold-out in one day compared to the day of shows the amount of demand. Demand shows the market. Period. There is no way you can argue that just because you barely have the ability to fill your stadium that you are just in much demand. There is a clear difference.

    And lets not even put this data over population for per capita results since we are a city of about 25% smaller size.
  4. blazindw

    blazindw Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jul 30, 2007
    Washington, DC
    Real Madrid
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    To bring this thread back to the original reason (soccer), I will just say I mentioned the Red Wings (and the other Detroit teams) to indicate the passion that Detroit sports fans have for their teams. Detroit's been in an economic recession since 2001, but it was only last year that you started to see empty seats at Red Wings and Lions games (even though most Red Wings games were sold out...the Lions didn't sell because of their performance). Canadiens vs. Red Wings and their local and road draws can be saved for another day. I actually like the Canadiens, so hopefully both our teams can make it to the finals this year. But, soccer in Detroit is what I'm focused on, and I think, even in spite of the economic state, soccer in Detroit is a win-win for all involved.
  5. piltdownman

    piltdownman Member

    Jun 24, 2005
    Not to nitpick, but Montreal, Toronto, and Vancouver have the highest NHL ticket revenue in the league. The Toronto Maple Leafs have the highest average ticket price in the NHL at $76.15 USD. Vancouver has the highest cheapest ticket at $54 USD and Montreal has the highest total, because even though their average is slighly less than vancouver or Toronto they have more seats. Vancouver has the most expensive beers in the league $7 USD for 8oz of foamy beer.
  6. Clonester

    Clonester New Member

    Feb 11, 2009
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Population is important. So is the market's desire for soccer (as previously mentioned). So is the number of competing summer sports already in the city. Perhaps a city has 3 million people, but is competing against baseball and football (possibly NFL and college). And the market could care less about soccer. Yet a smaller market may have no competing sports and a strong desire for soccer. Especially in Canada where soccer is more popular in general.
  7. Intru

    Intru Member

    Mar 16, 2006
    Rochester, NY
    Puerto Rico Islanders
    San Juan! Its a totally Hispanic Marcket and it has no competition, a man can dream cant he jejejeje
  8. Sirk

    Sirk Member+

    Apr 25, 1999
    Cleveland, OH
    Not that it really matters since Northeast Ohio already screwed the pooch when they had a chance to get a team, but for the record, the Cleveland-Akron CMSA is about 2.9 million people. Cleveland is the main market and Akron is the satellite market, but they are one sports media market. Cleveland and Akron are closer to each other (35 miles) than some Cleveland suburbs are to other Cleveland suburbs. It's basically a twin-sun solar system, if you will.

    More specifically to the point of this discussion, Cleveland-Akron is single market for sports. The Indians, Browns, Cavaliers, Akron Zips, and Kent State Golden Flashes are all "local" teams in Northeast Ohio, regardless of which of the two cities you live in.

    Nothing illustrates this more than LeBron James who is a "local product" playing for his "hometown team", which is true in either city even though he's from Akron and plays in Cleveland.

    Cleveland blew their shot for an MLS team, but since people are correcting the true market size of Detroit and SLC, I figured I would do the same for Cleveland since the number provided was for Cleveland only and not the true Northeast Ohio sports market, which is based in Cleveland, but unquestionably includes nearby Akron. In fact, Wolstein's group was planning to put its "Cleveland" soccer stadium smack dab in the middle of the NE Ohio population center, which is part way between Cleveland and Akron, to ensure that East Siders, West Siders, and Akronites (the three main NE Ohio constituencies) all had equal access to the stadium.
  9. BSGuy321

    BSGuy321 Member

    Sep 2, 2008
    Montreal would have been nice to have in MLS. Large multicultural society.
  10. DetroitTFC

    DetroitTFC BigSoccer Supporter

    Apr 14, 2007
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    London is exactly two hours from both Detroit and Toronto (I've driven it enough to know). I would imagine that it would gravitate towards TO for cultural and national reasons, with some small interest in Detroit, maybe.

    If we look at a 1.5 or 2 hour driving radius, that would pick up both Ann Arbor and Flint. Toledo is closer to Detroit than Columbus, too, though given the historical college rivalry between Michigan and Ohio State, people in Toledo would probably favor Columbus but again some will support a team in Detroit.

    There is a good business case for a team in the Detroit region. It's a good central location to leverage competition with Chicago, Columbus and Toronto. But you could probably say the same about Cleveland.
  11. BVgolski07

    BVgolski07 Member

    Aug 8, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    It doesn't have as large of a metropolitan pop as a lot of cities, but its actually city population is larger than minneapolis. There's a huge latino population and lots of potential sites for a stadium. Soccer is pretty popular around here especially youth clubs and high school level.

    Instant rival with Chicago, and you bet I would switch allegiances in a heartbeat
  12. EstebanLugo

    EstebanLugo Member

    Mar 18, 2007
    N of your DB
    Millonarios Bogota
    Nat'l Team:
    ...And it already has a subforum here, for some strange reason.
  13. Sounds about right. London is very much oriented towards Toronto sports teams but there is a sports bar called Joe Kools that tends to cater to Detroit Tigers fans and convenience stores occasionally sell the Detroit Free Press so it probably represents the very outer limit for Detroit that way. I suspect people in the Windsor and Chatham areas would follow a Detroit MLS team just as people in the Niagara peninsula tend to follow Buffalo sports teams. Windsor gets the Detroit channels on their cable TV systems while London tends to have Erie, PA and Cleveland.
  14. zoobawa

    zoobawa Member

    Jul 28, 2008
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Yes Milwaukee has a bigger population than Minneapolis, but with Minneapolis and St Paul they have a bigger population than Milwaukee. Thats not even counting the surrounding areas. MSP Area has almost 3 million people whereas the Milwaukee area has 1.7 million or 2 million depending on the area u take into account.

    I'm not saying Milwaukee is a bad place to have an MLS team and it would be a good rivalry with Chicago as well with Twin Cities if we had one as well. I'm just saying you can't take Minneapolis and St Paul apart and use as two different cities when comparing. There is a reason they are called the Twin Cities.
  15. westau

    westau Member

    Feb 11, 2009
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    MLS really needs to put a team in the southeast(and Miami does not count). I live in Atlanta and the closest MLS franchise right now is Columbus which is about a 9 hour drive, and then DC and Houston are closing in on 11 hours. I would be happy with a tean in Atlanta, Nashville, Charlotte, or a city in Florida like Jacksonville or maybe even Orlando. All of these would be close enough for me to have a "home" team in MLS. As of right now there really isn't any reason for me or anyone in the south to follow a league that appears like it doesn't care about the area so until the league puts a team here I will just have to keep following the national team and EPL(I picked this up living overseas).

    All of these areas are large and are growing a lot. The people talking about Detroit come on, since 2000 Atlanta has increased 24% and Detroit is just barely above 0. Charlotte and Nashville also have grown at least 15-20% since 2000 but are still down around 1.5 mil in the MSA.
  16. arkjayback

    arkjayback Member

    Mar 29, 2008
    Le Mars, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The top "untapped markets" is what really got me thinking about Canada getting its own league. The US has so many potential places for an MLS team to succeed: Portland, Carolina, Las Vegas, Atlanta, Detroit, Phoenix, Miami, St. Louis, etc.

    I'd rather MLS have 24 teams all in the US because it would mean more people exposed to soccer, more people likely to support the national team, and more places that could develop national team players.
  17. ChicagoFC (FireClub)

    Jan 25, 2009
    Logan Square
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    here is my dream from the markets listed at the top of the thread along with possible names

    Detroit - Motor City F.C.
    Montreal - Impact or Olympique
    Minneapolis/St. Paul - Minnesota Thunder
    St. Louis - Athletico
    Portland - Timbers
    Vancouver - Whitecaps
    Cleveland - City

    of those larger than Salt Lake
    San Antonio/Austin - Hill Country F.C.
    Sacramento - California Republic (Bear Flag tifo anyone?)
    Milwaukee - United 1846 (Two towns were United to create Milwaukee in 1846)
    Buffalo - Niagara

    then I'd like to see some of these USL transplants
    Charleston Battery
    Crystal Palace Baltimore
    Carolina RailHawks

    I also would love to share some ideas for crests
    but this is off topic enough
  18. maltaman68

    maltaman68 New Member

    Jul 18, 2008
    Farmington, MI
    Ok lets clear a few things up about Detroit...first when people from Detroit say Detroit they never mean the City of Detroit, they are always talking about the Metro area which does include Windsor (The good side of Detroit where we all go to drink) and the Windsor Suburbs. Yes Detroit's and Windsor's population is declining but so would yours if your ONLY industry left town. Its population will stabilize as it continues to diversify its economy. Detroit wasn't ready for the Auto Industry to just pack up and leave and never thought about the future, we have been going through what the rest of the nation is feeling since 2001.

    Enough of the sad stories...on to London. London is too far away to be a Detroit only town, I have family that lives all over Ontario I know where their loyalties lie, London can be split, the further west you are the more chances your a Detroit fan, the further East more likely Toronto but its not really set in stone. Toledo on the other hand may be more likely to support Detroit over Columbus, having the Mud Hens in Toledo sort of bonds the two cities, and its only an hour away. I could actually see the rivalry with Columbus be the "Toledo Strip War" fighting for the loyalties of Toledo.

    To answer any questions about well how would a team in Detroit be supported, no one has money...pointing out the Wings inability to draw like they used to. I'd like to again reference that what the whole nation and world is feeling now, Detroit has been feeling for 8 years...even the most loyal cities aren't gona be able to sell everything out all the time in a case like that....and back to soccer Detroit getting MLS wouldn't be happening for at least 5-6 years even if they got the next round of expansion...the economy should be better by that point...we hope.

    FINAL Point - We still...gulp...sold out or nearly sold out Lions games, the 0-16 "we can't even get a first down" Lions. Ya Detroits a sports town, always has been!
  19. iancam75

    iancam75 New Member

    Jul 20, 2007
    Orange County/LA
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Miami-With Barca's owners should be excellent and a shoe in for 2010.
    San Diego-This market is a must because of the rivalry with LA and perfect weather even in the summer to produce quality play. Only has two other pro teams that are well supported.
    Portland-Is an excellent rival to Seattle and has history.
    Atlanta-Has a good soccer supporting population at least it did when I played club soccer there years ago.
  20. SoundersBeliever

    SoundersBeliever New Member

    Nov 13, 2008
    Brier, WA
    Its Manila in the Philippines. Population of Urban Area: 19.55 million people
    5th biggest Urban Area in the World. Yes it has a team but its not professional. An important distinction.
  21. Wazzu Gunner

    Wazzu Gunner Member

    Mar 21, 2008
    Ballard, WA
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Soccer in PHX in the summer? That sounds awful to be honest with you.
  22. pace8

    pace8 Member

    Aug 17, 2006
    Miami and Montreal
    Montreal Impact
    Nat'l Team:
    For me, Miami seems worst...
  23. Sandlapper

    Sandlapper New Member

    Jan 30, 2007
    South Carolina
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    NO MLS IN THE SOUTH EVER! I would rather spend my money on USL and baseball.
  24. Sachsen

    Sachsen Member+

    Aug 8, 2003
    Broken Arrow, Okla.
    Sporting Kansas City
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If I were a billionaire, Tulsa would already have a team. And a downtown stadium by the river. Especially with the NBA in OK City, Tulsa would turn out to support their own major league team.
  25. OWN(yewu)ED

    OWN(yewu)ED Member+

    May 26, 2006
    chico, CA
    Id like to see Vegas, would be the first major sports team in the area. I dont think anyone would have any objections to being a visiting fan around those parts. It would be absurdly hot though, im not sure how they would get around that.

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