It's a very impressive work. But, still, must be taken with a "grain of salt", since it counts points for causes not attributable to individual performances, and a bias to offensive plays.
From 58 1-maradona 1986 2-cruyff 1974 3-pele 1958 4-eusebio 1966 5-pele 1970 6-garrincha 1962 7-Jairzinho 1970 8-didi 1958 9-kopa 1958 10-beckenbauer 1974 11-kempes 78 12-fontaine 58 13-matthaus 90 14-beckenbauer 66 15-zidane 2006
My top 5 would probably be: Messi 22 Maradona 86 Pele 58 Pele 70 Cruyff 74 Not necessarily in that order. Cruyff was insanely good but didn't win it.
I consider messi the best player in history and he undoubtedly had a great tournament in Qatar. But by no means was it the best performance in world cups. He wouldn't even put her in the top five.
Maradona (86 version) to me is still first. But if you give bonus points for performance in the final, probably Messi (22 version) and Pele (58 version) both overtake him.
Messi 2014 is severely underrated. He was an Higuain and/or Palacio sitter away from being world champion. And while that 2014 Argentina team had better individual talent than 2022 Argentina, it played far worse and uglier. But Messi himself was more electric. He was in his prime and was just unplayable at times. Unlike in 2022, that Argentina's passing and midfield was poor. Their entire offense was based on waiting for Messi or Di Maria to do something special. And again, Messi was inches away from carrying his team to a world championship.
Yea I too would go with Maradona 86 as the best run ever with Messi 22 in second probably. Pele had a much smaller contribution % so I'm less impressed with his runs. You can imagine those Brazil teams winning 2-3 WC's even if Pele never played (they actually won 1 without him...) whereas I cannot even fathom that for neither 86 Argentina without Maradona nor 22 Argentina without Messi. Cruyff was unreal in 74 but Netherlands didn't win it so I'd put him below as well.
Same top-5 + R9 2002 and Messi 2014 If forced to order it: Messi 2022/Cruyff 74 Maradona 86 Pele 70 Pele 58/ R9 2002/ Messi 14
To each his own. But personally, I can't believe my eyes. Messi 2022 is ranked higher than Maradona and Pele's WC performances. Wow!
Messi 22 is definitely a top 10 World Cup campaign but I would put it below Maradona 86, Cruyff 74, Eusebio 66, Garrincha 62, and Pele 58.
I get it’s been a very long time and none of us were born(talking for myself maybe you too) This is widely considered to be Johan cruyffs best performance in the 1974 edition This has been uploaded and taken down by the YouTube police several times over the years so if you have the opportunity save it. Cruyff vs Sweden was his best performance and he literally recorded 0 goals/0 assists The 26 year old Cruyff in 1974 could have a legendary performance with 0 goals/assists because he was a player of 90 mins unlike the old,lethargic and defensive liability Messi in WC 2022 relying on moments(more often than not penalties) to impact the match I will keep banging on about this Messi scored more penalties(4) then he produced assists(3) or open play goals(3) He didn’t earn those penalties And all the legendary World Cup performers you mention be it Diego maradona or Pele were vastly more efficient from the spot There is absolutely no reason to believe had they been the direct beneficiaries of those same spot kicks they would’ve definitely scored them I have to say with all due respect there is no person with full control of their mental faculties who is aware of cruyffs best performances in WC 1974 and could possibly think that Lionel Messi was operating at anywhere near that level in the 2022 World Cup Cruyff won a penalty in the World Cup final A penalty won at the end of a mazy dribbling run from the centre point of the pitch He scored goals from open play against Brazil who had just won the World Cup(1970) and Argentina who was going to win the World Cup in literally the next edition(1978) Nice goals not scrappy like Messi vs France He also produced assists in those same matches He wasn’t a defensive liability like Messi was with mistakes that could’ve been very costly. Let’s not forget Messis pre assist to Mbappe that we are still waiting for you and bada bing to claim Messi was dispossessed 3.1 times per 90 compared to the 1.5 of Mbappe Mbappe dribbled at a rate of 3.8 dribbles per 90 compared to the 2 per 90 of Messi Mbappe successfully dribbled at almost twice the rate of Messi and was dispossessed half the amount Mbappe Scored twice the amount of open play goals(6 vs 3) and took less shots on goal than Messi(31 shots for Mbappe and 32 shots for Messi) Mbappe has literally outs classed Lionel Messi in every head to head encounter Be it the 2018 World Cup,the 2020/21 champions league or the 2022 World Cup final @Gregoire1 Would genuinely like to hear the arguments for R9 2002 being ahead of Mbappe All round play,quality of goals,number of goals,number of assists ? What is your argument for R9 being on that pedalstal and not Mbappe I can tell you for a fact Eusebio who you didn’t mention was Operating on a complete different level than R9 in any of his world cups(or even all his world cups put together) Eusebio 66 completed more dribbles then R9 did in 3 world cups combined I don’t know what you want to make of that since you call the Brazilian best dribbler of all time or something close to that @Danko Cruyff didnt win but that means nothing Why don’t you rate Diego milito 2009/10 over Messi 2009/10 Diego milito won the champions league(the treble in fact) and was crucial in almost every round Where is your nomination for Diego militos 2010 ballon dor because I didn’t even see it For sure you are aware of his existence His goals knocked out Barcelona in the 2009/10 CL semi final
^ Claiming that Mbappe outclassed Messi at the 2022 World Cup Final is silly. Mbappe had 0 key passes in 120 minutes and scored 1 non-penalty goal. Funny how penalties don't hurt him only Messi. Mbappe maybe had a slightly better game in the final. For the whole tournament, not a chance. Mbappe was invisible in the QF and SF while Messi dominated. Mbappe scoring more non-penalty goals against teams that went nowhere means far less. Cruyff 74 is the one losing performance I can definitely see putting over Messi because of his sheer brilliance. What exactly are we arguing about here? You're the one with an unreasonable opinion that Messi's WC performance is not top 100 of whatever. You're the one with an indefensible opinion in these threads. I personally happen to find Messi's run the 2nd most impressive of all time or at least in recent history. The statistics he put up, the great moments, the team dependency, the % of contributions... All of those factors come together. But I'm happy with making a diplomatic statement and saying his run is top 10.
Without the penalties he played no role in winning his World Cup campaign would be on the fringes of the top 100 When you concede on this we can happily move on After you concede this we can talk about where his World Cup campaign stands with the penalties he scored
No he wouldn't. Discounting pens he still has 4/7 goal contributions in the knockout stages which is 57% and elite historically. And he had a contribution in every single game.
Since when is key pass more important than taking on players and scoring goals? Why should Mbappe make key passes when he thinks he is capable of doing it on his own (and attempts to do so)? Key pass is not a parameter to evaluate Messi and Mbappe. Young Messi, who could take on players regularly, would not make many key passes, would he?
Mbappe scored 1 non-penalty goal and didn't draw either of the two penalties that he took. Messi also scored 1 non-penalty goal and was a much better playmaker throughout the game. What makes Mbappe clearly better than Messi and stick to your own logic in which penalties should be excluded...
Still find this bonkers how a win assisted by penalties and tie-breakers (when others have won in dominating fashion) can be considered so high. This was closer to Maradona 1990 than a Maradona 1986.
Making plays is not Mbappe's job. His talent, speed, and strength would be wasted if he was made into that at this stage of his career. People like different things, and I can appreciate that. You might like Messi spraying accurate passes, rotating and retaining control of the ball (like Zidane but without the elegance), providing leadership etc. I found it to be a good solid performance but not exciting or inventive or jaw dropping. There was no such thing about that performance. I liked Mbappe's performance more (when he woke up) as I found him to be much more exciting, dominating, with his dribbling inside the box, that fantastic finish etc. Both of them might have scored 1 non-penalty goal, but all goals do not carry the same weight from the point of view of the sport being a spectacle. If Mbappe only scored the penalties, his performance wouldn't be as impressive, would it? For a spectator sport, one cannot diminish the entertainment value to mere numbers. I think one needs to assign appropriate weights to performances accordingly.
Fair enough. I think you're judging it based on what's more exciting. For me it's always been about effectiveness although I think I've always loved Messi because of the extraordinary plays he makes. In the final I can agree Mbappe was more fun to watch.
In my opinion Messi was the best player in the World Cup especially given that he performed great in nearly every game except Saudi Arabia. He was more consistent in Knockout stage matches as well.
I think with regard to Messi, evaluation parameters are being shifted based on what he does on the pitch. When he was younger, there was no talk of key passes, effectiveness etc. It was how many runs, dribbles, goals from outside the box etc. Penalties were scoffed at (Ronaldo was Penaldo). Some of his blind fans even tried to suggest that Messi 2014 was the best dribbling performance of all time (in addition to being the best World Cup performance of all time). Now, it is key passes and "effectiveness" as Messi does not do dribbling runs anymore. Now, his performance is the best ever because of key passes and "effectiveness" (how is effectiveness even measured?). Mbappe cannot match up as he did not make key passes (he actually did...in the final he made a brilliant cross after his equalizer...how is that not a key pass?).
Messi was easily the best at the 2022 World Cup. Mbappe is the second best but he's fairly far behind when you consider how much better Messi was in the QF and SF.