It'd be better if there were still more of the performances on Youtube really (although games can be viewed in full by anyone on Footballia for example), but for a wider selection with 'multiple choice' like a shortlist I'd have this kind of thing in mind I guess with 4 options in alphabetical order by player name.... *Equivalent = according to the order of games in second group stages that existed in some years (Allowing 3 nominations per player which I'm not sure I'd exceed anyway, even if in a theoretical vote it could be restricted to one vote per player or in the summary only one performance from a player could finally qualify - that did make it a really hard call between two of Pele's opening games though and I'm reluctant to leave out his Czechoslovakia game from 1970 but did stick to keeping his Mexico 1962 one in instead of it - maybe if only going with 4 options for each stage it could even make sense to take out either his semi-final or final from 1958 instead, while I'd have Cruyff vs Brazil in mind too if not for the other three I include and the stacked semi-final stage which is the equivalent of where that game was in terms of both schedule and qualification to the final being the prize, and I'd have been a bit torn between putting a 4th in for Maradona with the South Korea opener from 86 or including the Matthaus game). Extra option added for semi-final and final due to numbers of obvious options and the stage and significance of the games. Game 1: A - Teofilo Cubillas vs Scotland 1978, B - Gheorghe Hagi vs Colombia 1994, C - Lothar Matthaus vs Yugoslavia 1990, D - Pele vs Mexico 1962 Game 2: A - Florian Albert vs Brazil 1966, B - Bobby Charlton vs Mexico 1966, C - Johan Cruyff vs Sweden 1974, D - Michael Laudrup vs Uruguay 1986 Game 3: A - Johan Cruyff vs Bulgaria 1974, B - Andres Iniesta vs Chile 2010, C - Diego Maradona vs Bulgaria 1986, D - James Rodriguez vs Japan 2014 Round of 16 game or equivalent*: Quarter final game or equivalent*: Semi final game or equivalent*: A - Franz Beckenbauer vs USSR 1966, B - Didi vs France 1958, C - Garrincha vs Chile 1958, D - Diego Maradona vs Belgium 1986, E - Pele vs France 1958 3rd Place Play-Off: Final: A - Mario Kempes vs Netherlands 1978, B - Bobby Moore vs W.Germany 1966, C: Pele vs Sweden 1958, D - Gaetano Scirea vs W.Germany 1982, E - Zinedine Zidane vs Brazil 1998 I'll fill in thee gaps soon! The James game might be a bit of a stretch, coming on as sub and I know Messi played longer vs Nigeria and if going with a modern option there is Cristiano Ronaldo vs Spain from 2018 I'm aware. That 3rd group stage game is one I'm the most open and uncertain on maybe at the moment. Enzo Scifo vs Uruguay from 1990 might come to mind potentially, but I should possibly think more about that slot!
Maybe for game 3 I could go with this instead even.... A - Johan Cruyff vs Bulgaria 1974, B - Eusebio vs Brazil 1966, C - Diego Maradona vs Bulgaria 1986, D - Dragan Stojkovic vs UAE 1990 Yugoslavia did need a result of some sort, and to finish second could have needed a few goals (not that it'd have necessarily been thought that Spain was an easier game than Cameroon I suppose, even if it did turn out that Yugoslavia progressed and Colombia didn't in those 2nd round games). Just throwing that one out there as another option anyway, as it was an impressive and influential performance for sure, whatever can be said about level of opposition (that said for this latter reason particularly perhaps I do find it hard to argue against C.Ronaldo vs Spain instead, just leaving the one Stojkovic choice among the options overall potentially): 1990 World Cup Yugoslavia vs UAE (Dragan Stojkovic) - YouTube I think Pele was kind of a master of the opening game at World Cups when throwing his Bulgaria game in from 1966 too (although twice he couldn't play at full fitness in any subsequent game to be fair). Completing a possible multiple choice shortlist anyway now.... Round of 16 game or equivalent*: A - Zbigniew Boniek vs Belgium 1982, B - Johan Cruyff vs Argentina 1974, C - Roger Milla vs Colombia 1990, D - Dragan Stojkovic vs Spain 1990 Quarter final game or equivalent* A: Eusebio vs North Korea 1966, B: Diego Maradona vs England 1986, C: Rivaldo vs Denmark 1998, D: Zinedine Zidane vs Brazil 2006 3rd Place Play-Off: A: Tomas Brolin vs Bulgaria 1994, B: Just Fontaine vs W.Germany 1958, C: Raymond Kopa vs W.Germany 1958, D: Valery Voronin vs Portugal 1966 Possibly Robben vs Brazil instead of either Brolin or Voronin, which would add another modern option. As for the pre 1958 options I didn't feel I could/should include them although like with the Ghiggia and Piola examples others could be picked out too based on narrative of the game and goals footage etc and that'd give things more of a historical all-time feel, but I'm trying to pick out performances based on what I've seen fully, or close to it (such as Boniek vs Belgium where maybe I saw extended game highlights IIRC).
Maybe Roberto Baggio vs England in 1990 is another contender for the 3rd Place Play-Off game, given I'm a bit uncertain on that one too. Hard to look past a French player from 1958 for the vote though probably anyway.
I should have checked a couple of those options lol! I wasn't needing to consider the C.Ronaldo one for the 3rd games.....because it was a 1st game! And Scifo vs Uruguay is a 2nd game anyway, and I was more settled on sure options in that phase without considering him or reviewing the game again. So in the end this is my list, provisional or final.... Game 1: A - Teofilo Cubillas vs Scotland 1978, B - Gheorghe Hagi vs Colombia 1994, C - Lothar Matthaus vs Yugoslavia 1990, D - Pele vs Mexico 1962 Game 2: A - Florian Albert vs Brazil 1966, B - Bobby Charlton vs Mexico 1966, C - Johan Cruyff vs Sweden 1974, D - Michael Laudrup vs Uruguay 1986 A - Johan Cruyff vs Bulgaria 1974, B - Eusebio vs Brazil 1966, C - Diego Maradona vs Bulgaria 1986, D - Dragan Stojkovic vs UAE 1990 Round of 16 game or equivalent*: A - Zbigniew Boniek vs Belgium 1982, B - Johan Cruyff vs Argentina 1974, C - Roger Milla vs Colombia 1990, D - Dragan Stojkovic vs Spain 1990 Quarter final game or equivalent* A: Eusebio vs North Korea 1966, B: Diego Maradona vs England 1986, C: Rivaldo vs Denmark 1998, D: Zinedine Zidane vs Brazil 2006 Semi final game or equivalent*: A - Franz Beckenbauer vs USSR 1966, B - Didi vs France 1958, C - Garrincha vs Chile 1962, D - Diego Maradona vs Belgium 1986, E - Pele vs France 1958 3rd Place Play-Off: A: Tomas Brolin vs Bulgaria 1994, B: Just Fontaine vs W.Germany 1958, C: Raymond Kopa vs W.Germany 1958, D: Valery Voronin vs Portugal 1966 Final: A - Mario Kempes vs Netherlands 1978, B - Bobby Moore vs W.Germany 1966, C: Pele vs Sweden 1958, D - Gaetano Scirea vs W.Germany 1982, E - Zinedine Zidane vs Brazil 1998
Your first list with your first choices at every stage is excellent. This complementary list is interesting too. Before that post, I just checked what could be the best performers for day 1 of the groups since I had more "doubts" about Hagi being a "clear winner". And could think of only two players that have not appeared in the discussion yet, both of them in '82 : Assad against West Germany (sure) and possibly Socrates against the Soviet Union (but I have less remembrance about this one, and there are many other good players around him). Back to Assad, the scorers in this game were Belloumi (but he was not 100% fit, that shows a bit on his goal iirc, and Madjer but I can't remember if his performance was that outstanding. As for Assad iirc, he was the one who really disturbed the german team and their defense, in addition to a good Algerian collective and playful against a perhaps too much confident (in the bad sense of the word ofc) German side. edit : btw, Kopa was a big surprise as I really did not see him coming while reading your first list. Was not thinking about any fellow country men, or anybody btw, at this stage, so the surprise.
That's a great and interesting tip for a game/performance to watch in full sometime for me and many others I guess, in terms of the Assad one. Yeah, I tend to think Kopa can get the nod over Fontaine, even though Fontaine scored 4 goals. Kopa himself did assist two out of 6 he assisted in the whole World Cup (I think we finally established before with @babaorum and others, or maybe it's a verified minimum - I think on the video of the goals in the Paraguay game on Youtube one goal is even missing IIRC), and he did play that pass to help gain the penalty he scored himself too. The assists were excellent with the cut back through a defender's legs to Fontaine, and initiating the move for the other one skillfully and evasively before playing a great and perfectly timed/placed pass finally too (though Fontaine himself was involved and gets a pre-assist as we'd say nowadays, and he did show some good skills and energy etc on top of his goals also). Kopa generally played very well and dribbled excellently in the game I'd say, and was setting up attacks frequently and skillfully, so he seems a good choice.
Yes, Assad was, in the main, a winger/ dribbler, so I'm not sure if he handled the game from A to Z then of course. As for Kopa I'd favor him as well for the reasons you gave including that perhaps decisive one factor (if really needed) that is about to underline how it worked between the two during the tournament at the occasion of this last game, when it did not work different. Yeah, it's perhaps not even needed that much in all respect to Fontaine's game and undeniable extraordinary performance, just reinforce it, so yes, he seems a good choice I check what I have for Kopa : For Kopa I have 3 assists v Paraguay (Fontaine, Wisniewski on fk, Vincent), 1 v Northern Ireland (Fontaine, who did a last little dribble but the pass was perfect), 1 v Brazil (Fontaine), 2 v W. Germany (Fontaine, Douis who takes a shot from quite far but the pass was outstanding enough to be considered as an assist) : 7 assists, with 4x Fontaine as the scorer. 4 games with minimum 1 assist over 6 games (did not find any against Scotland and Yugoslavia). That's what I found for my part in any case. I also have 1 "pre-assist" against N. Ireland (brilliant preparation for a Penverne's cross on the RW, for the 3rd goal) and 1 "half-assist", in this very same game (launched the Piantoni's rush on the 4th goal). And two goals : Paraguay (volley with the knee, served by Fontaine), Scotland (from the 6 yards, 'without controlling the ball', on a back-pass by... Fontaine). Fontaine has 2 assists in all in Sweden, both of them for Kopa.
Good work with all these added suggestions mate. I notice that anyone not subscribed to Footballia can still view Brazil vs USSR from 1982 (including the full performance of Socrates) on Youtube too: (1) Brasil 2 x 1 USSR - Jogo Completo - Copa do Mundo 1982 - Jogos Históricos #30 - YouTube
The point I was trying to make is that sometimes the opponents are not really into the game or don't really have the means to give their opponent a good match. The biggest differences between two teams clearly happen during the 1st round. That's all stating the obvious but in some places, I find that it can enter the discussion. For Example Colombia '94 : very peculiar things were going on around the team, within the team. The Hagi's performance remains iconic though. Other players you picked in groups stage delivered a remarkable performance or even iconic performance. It's most of all about day 1 of the groups that I was in search of a good challenger to Hagi but quite sensing that perhaps, it doesn't exist. Somehow. About the 3rd place games, many times a team is not into it, before the game has even started while the other team clearly wants the bronze medal more. Some usual starters can be lost on the road for this one : sometimes it can be more a good than a handicap though but it remains that it is like betting. In '58 both teams changed players in same amount. In '94, Bulgaria wanted Stoichkov to be the lone top scorer so they miss their little final. In '66, the Soviet Union lost (surely Voronin was good enough for you picked him though, I have no doubts about it). This section has only three names as of now, as opposed to the others which are composed of 4 or 5 players. In 2006, it looked like Portugal v Germany would be a disputed "little final" but Schweini thwarts the Portugal plans (Portugal were not here as "tourists", judging by their 11, were even quite the favorites on this one, maybe, for the observators) : he is involved in the three goals, that's why I find that he can be considered in the poll. It's that 3rd place game that revealed him somehow. So I think there's a harmony between his status of the time and that type of game. That's some reflexions about game profiles and see what is comparable more than about finding "better" performer's name. But again, I think that the first list you made looks great (immediately and even after thinking a bit more about it), Hagi included. Just, I wondered if it could not be a bit more disputed with another performer in a game with higher profile, or a bigger feat. I guess that C. Ronaldo was not elected because of the final result + Spain having changed their coach right before the tournament + CR not being a "number 10" (in the broad sense of the term, so he was not at the heart of the game) + 1 pk + the mini wall in height.
I tried to have a bit more of a think to see if I could add some more myself too, and for one this century I even wondered about Junichi Inamoto vs Belgium in 2002 (but although he got MOTM and I put him in my XI of the tournament I remember actually, I don't have a great recollection of just how well he played in that opening game, and quite probably like Burruchaga for the final game in 1986 it's another one that could be a bit of a stretch). I think to be fair from what I saw of extended highlights Kazimierz Deyna vs Argentina in 1974 is a valid contender anyway, and this video does show a lot of (or some of at least) his good play in that game I've noticed. Watching those extensive highlights on ESPN Classic did perhaps even give more of an impression about his influence on the game than this portrays, but it gives an idea about his composure and play opening dribbling etc, plus shows a couple of very good passes to Polish players in promising areas towards the Argentine goal: 德耶纳 ● Kazimierz Deyna in 1974 FIFA World Cup ● By Foolishpan - YouTube
Yeah, to be seen in full but it looks good and shows well his way of playing indeed, although he was not 100% fit (possibly it had more weight on his performances as the games were passing by. Or as the minutes of this first game were passing by, already? Must-see. But the technique is there. He was not subbed-out but the forwards were, so it's not great indication). Otherwise, from the same era, if goalkeepers are allowed, I took note of Hellström. 3 cs in the groups in '74 (he has also one cs in the third match of groups in 70 v Uruguay. He was also one of the best at his position in '78 it seems but did not win a single game and has no cs there). Judging on ultra-short highlights, against Holland he was decisive at the end of the game but it looks like there was more shots on target from the Bulgarians. Saw one spectacular save against Uruguay too. Some of them appear in this compilation (74 and 78): youtube.com/watch?v=XxaUzVT7Jf8&t=256s Looks like a king of the group stage too, re: Pelé "kind of a master of the opening game". If ever he can't qualify for one specific day match top-5 or so, for sure I'd consider Hellström for the group stage well, as a whole.
Btw, Jongbloed has also a cs over the second round, in '74. Carlos of Brazil has a cs over the first round in '86 too. Like Zenga in '90, Roa in '98, Muslera in 2010 and 2018, Calderon of Mexico and Albertosi in '70, Banks in '66, Gilmar in '58. For a whole group stage category, there's Banks too, especially when counting all tournaments, with The Save four years later in addition. No precise ideas about possible candidates amongst field players atm, over the three first games. Apart from Cruyff, very possibly. Albert. Eusébio, in a top-5? Possibly, I'll try to find out possible inclusions for this sort of mini-championship of the first round (although there are the k-o stages in view, or the second round). Messi 2014...
I think for the first round games for sure Cruyff 74, and I'm thinking Maradona 86 too. Eusebio somewhere in the equation too seems a good call. I think Albert was especially good vs Brazil, but over the 3 games it could be more doubtful maybe? We don't have their full games from that stage of the tournament, only relatively short highlights, but Kopa and Fontaine could be contenders too I'd think from 1958. Jairzinho from 1970 perhaps? Maybe Michael Laudrup and/or Elkjaer from 1986 - it could be that they were better vs Scotland and W.Germany (outside of the Uruguay game in other words) combined than Albert in his two games not vs Brazil in 1966? I'm not sure 1990 has clear candidates but maybe it's Matthaus and Stojkovic if anybody? Not to rule out Baresi or Giannini of Italy completely necessarily for example.... Similar for 1994 - Hagi (for peak level) or Romario (for consistent contribution in the group stage in general), but not to rule out completely a Klinsmann or at a stretch Caniggia? For the group stage I suppose Roberto Baggio has more of a case in 98 than 94, although not a major case alongside Cruyff, Maradona etc probably. I don't think 2006 has main candidates either, but for the top options Pirlo, Klose, Saviola, Riquelme, perhaps Rosicky despite the Czech exit? I think Messi in 2014 had one consistently excellent game (but didn't play the full 90 minutes) vs Nigeria. Not great at all for a lot of the Bosnia game, but still did come up with the output, and a bit of both vs Iran maybe (better play in general and then a better goal as well, although from what I remember not everyone felt he was better vs Iran than vs Bosnia overall so it was a case of the clutch moments making his case rather than great form throughout each game...and it was perhaps 'lucky' than Iran, Bosnia etc didn't score enough to win the games but then that argument can be made for many other performances of other players to an extent unless they orchestrated very big wins with magnificent displays). Over the tournament I remember I had James Rodriguez as arguably the better player, and Robben in the mix too, and for the group stage alone maybe it can be the case too (moreso James IIRC, though Robben did play his part with a starring key role in the big surprise win vs Spain for example). Maybe Messi 2014 does have one of the better 'middle sections' of a World Cup because of that year, being good to very good vs Switzerland IIRC for example also? Behind Cruyff 74 though I'd say.
Putting aside the clean-sheets (that I took in account as a first filter), yes. Plenty of gk's with just 1 goal conceded too. As for a group stage top-5 including every positions, I have only Banks and Hellström on hand for their legendary imprint on the competition + cs + elected by various sources as best gk of one tournament (and still cited amongst the best in a second one). Plenty of great gk's including the ones you cited ofc, who are equal in terms of performance as those two that I'd just clearly favor in the context of this precise exercise. Or even, why not superior. But Navas 2014 especially, is tempting, knowing that there was already a great preceding - so both could be cited at once finally, in a write-up about a top-5. For Banks, I guess that the fact he did not play against Germany in '70 while he had this save in the groups is sort of a plus in that perspective too. Many ways to write stories when designing a top-something. As for Ochoa, in spite of the number of performances shared on two tournaments, I find it more difficult to build up a solid argument about him (in the middle of the likes of Cruyff or Matthaüs etc.) but that's me. I see him more as a candidate for one or two specific day match as opposed to Hellström, that I don't see for one game but more for the overall thing. But the frontier between these two criterias is thin.
Thanks Pavlin for repping a couple of my posts on this topic (and reminding me to add a little update): this was actually the most up-to-date and correct post, but now I can add that we have a confirmation on Kopa's 1958 average of course from Titanlux (4.6), and we have the 1962 averages thanks to wm442433, and can see that based on those actually Bobby Charlton would enter the top 20 ratings and also the top rated XI (with less games played than Cruyff or Maradona though, and interestingly he didn't get a place in France Football's summary end of tournament XI which as we can see didn't strictly follow the average ratings for 1958 or 1962), with his 1962 average rating of 4.75 1962 World Cup XI (by Dr. Friedebert Becker) | Page 2 | BigSoccer Forum In theory Sacchi's rating is high enough obviously, but he did only play 3 games so maybe shouldn't be included (likewise Parodi or Paraguay, with a 4.6 average rating like Kopa, only played 3 games himself). We don't have the FF ratings for semi-finals, 3rd place game and Final for 1966 yet of course (but do have the rest thanks to you Pavlin), but Marzolini, Onega and Bene have 4.75 and were out of the tournament after the quarter-finals, and players such as Bobby Charlton again (in a central role this time) and Beckenbauer could be in the mix - it may be even that by the end those two could be the highest rated pair for central midfield, although in a way Charlton's role might fit the AM slot better (they'd need to have each got 11 etoiles from the final two games - which I guess would most likely come from a 6 in the semi-final and a 5 in the final but might be unlikely - 10 more etoiles would put them on 4.67 though too which would be slightly below their own average for 1962 and 1974 respectively, whereas 11 etoiles more and they'd exceed those with 4.83 - I'm assuming that they were both on 18 after the quarter-finals although it's a bit hard to read and be 100% sure I think). https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/1966-world-cup-best-xi.2011264/#post-40106240
In fact I think in reality Kopa's 1958 average rating from France Football was 4.67 (so level with Pele, Tostao and Clodoaldo from 1970). Parodi's also. France Football just presented the averages rounded down, to one decimal place. Kopa would have had 28 etoiles/points therefore (Parodi having half of that total, from half the amount of games Kopa played).
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I wonder if players from before 1958 have ever been rated with ratings ?! @wm442433 You could ask in this forum where you found the ratings from WC1962, if anyone has an idea, if ratings were given before WC1958 in France Football!
Yes, it'd be interesting to see them if there were any. I guess though it would have required correspondents (not the same one for every game of course) attending each game to be able to decide on grades. I know that for the 1958 World Cup in Sweden quite a few games were shown in full on TV, but maybe there would be no reason why France Football couldn't send someone to every game in the Switzerland 1954 tournament for example. It's also a matter of when publications like France Football began handing out ratings at all, for any games (including French league ones).
This is from France Football 1953-54 season and there are no ratings, only the best players in the match in the column on the right have been determined!
I found this! They are not exactly ratings, but are some sort of ranking of players from WC 1930, 34, 38, 50, 54 to WC2014 and UEFA EURO from 1960 to EURO 2012. https://labibliadelfutbol.blogspot.com/2013/05/top-100-world-cup-uruguay-1930.html