I think I rate both higher than that (I agree Zidane vs Man Utd is a notable/very good performance by him though...and in a way I should have more 'nostalgia' about that one, because even though it's more recent, I will have watched it at the time while I wasn't born when Cruyff played Real Madrid lol!). I did see your Twitter post outlining the multiple BCCs you picked out by Zidane in that game. As we can see Cruyff vs Real Madrid in 72/73 certainly does have those too though obviously. If average in possession is a criteria you value a lot (I think in these cases it's a bit harsh, but yes Cruyff and Zidane did play more graceful games with the ball and with a higher overall play accuracy on other occasions) maybe you would agree with me about some 'over-rated' Messi and C.Ronaldo performances in theory (where there is end product, but not overall consistently great play). Messi vs Arsenal or Leverkusen where he scores a lot but it seems a bit too easy arguably, or various C.Ronaldo games of a similar nature?
.................. .............. JOhan Cruyff vs Marseille 1972 ... was a great game by Johan Cruyff 2 goals .... 1 pre-assist from the corner-kick( Piet Keizer came shortly in this lance crossed to Haan .. !!! .............and amazing skills at all in that game in the Old European Champions Cup . !
Yeah, it's certainly a notable one to add to his EC catalogue of games. At 8.22 he nearly scored another goal too! I guess CristianoPuskas might feel similar about passing accuracy % and suchlike (it wasn't a fully consistent performance in that aspect I suppose, although it was one where he was always dangerous running with the ball...not to say he didn't have better dribbling in other games in his career though). Again, I'm not sure it is easily/clearly less than Messi vs Man Utd 2011 myself (albeit it's a different era and hard to compare again arguably; not forgetting Man Utd played an open formation in that game though). I remember watching the whole game and thinking Keizer and Neeskens certainly played well too. I should get back to mainly making my update posts on IceBlood's thread this week and next week really to be honest, but maybe I was slightly triggered into a succession of posts by the nostalgia comment lol and/or by my ideas about CristianoPuskas's comment re: Zidane vs Ajax/Dynamo Kyiv vis a vis Cruyff games in the EC.... EDIT I'll leave @ffff15 and @carlito86 to discuss whether Cruyff attempted a shot in the first half or it was a mis-aimed cross (one thing for sure is that Cruyff did make creative and innovative attempts both at shooting and crossing/passing at various times in his career though, including after ball juggling and suchlike - a bit like Hagi attempted ambitious shots from distances and/or angles at various times and that helps to convince people he meant his chip goal vs Colombia in the 1994 World Cup, if there are any doubts about that one....).
.................... good. Honestly about the decades from 1910 to 1924... honestly... there's nothing to really analyze in general. no images... no entire games.. no statistics with much more of a professional football coach character... So it's just like books and stories within books, it's better to always see it into the book itself at the moment... About performances has several great performances from 1956 to 2024... Opening the vision... without just focusing on the same media players. There is always something new outside of this bubble with the most popular and recent players.
his European Cup career great games were a "statpadding" in early rounds. in latter rounds he had only few mesmerizing games
............... yes Of course my son ....... The old European Champions Cup was played in the knockout system since from the first phase... so first of all, it's very normal for Ajax to play the games with great caution, concern, let's say, playing in a more serious and competitive way ( approaching way )... so it's normal for me .... after or after the 1992/93 UEFA Champions League with the group stages it became much easier to play this competition, prioritizing the spectacle of the game much more easier the games aswell . ............. The old European Cup had a maximum of 9 matches, all eliminatory
.................. did you make this video on Ferenc Puskas ????? really i liked it this video .... shows so much plays of Puskas ... not only goals things ... etc ...!!!
But hey, if someone calls himself "Fussballkönig" on twitter, is Real Madrid fan, has ties to Hungary, then it is not surprising not everyone is convinced. Anyway, the (statistical) effect on the team results says a lot. Especially when you almost always reach the semi final or better.
Yeah, I should imagine if Sofascore did make a rating for that one, despite the lack of actual end product, he'd be getting a pretty high rating, with a high dribble success, some key passes etc. There is the play at 4:20 that stands out, plus the time he does one of those flick ups and volley crosses (that at other times did lead to goals of course), and I would think Zidane would be satisfied enough with a control like at 8:40 (plus there is an attempt at goal a bit similar in some respects to the Phantom Goal he scored for Barcelona). To be fair, I suppose re: the specific Zidane Ajax/Dynamo Kyiv comment, it's a pretty high bar (given exclusions of any other Zidane game such as that Man Utd one in 97/98, Monaco the same season, the 2001/02 Final, vs Borussia Dortmund in 02/03 etc etc), with for me especially the Dynamo Kyiv one a stand-out among the best CL/EC performances somewhere I think. Still, I do think like I said some Cruyff performances in the EC can be thought of in a similar way, like vs Feyenoord like I mentioned, and vs Liverpool in 66/67 too (I know you did make a video with some footage from that game yourself didn't you, but maybe you were off the forum whenever the recent Twitter post with seemingly cleared up footage from Ajax vs Liverpool..both legs...was posted so I'll add that here now again too): Somone on X: "Cruyff vs Liverpool EC 66/67-both legs 3 goals(1st,5th,6th goals) 1 assist(3rd goal) 1 rebond assist(2nd goal) 1 free kick won led to a goal(4th goal) Involved in 6 goals out of 7 goals vs one of the top 5 best teams in the world according to ELO rating, in counter attack system https://t.co/DsIot8QAmz" / X Anyway, I will try to stick pretty much in the next days/weeks posting updates on IceBlood's thread in the mornings as much as I can I think, especially given the Euros starting with games later on in the days. So I'll try to limit my posting elsewhere on the forum for a bit: I'll say again no hard feelings to Carlito anyway though.
There is also such videos for his farewell game against Bayern in 1978 and despite the scoreline many are actually positive I see. "The sublime control and one of his utmost explosive accelerations somewhere in the middle with that easyness. He takes the ball out of the air a couple of times with his feet , he is almost perfectly two footed, and it is immediately glued in control. The vision in passing. The speed in thinking. The variety in footwork, ballwork, direction. The close ball control and first touch beautiful but functional. He is the best of south american football and european football in one player. As i have seen many videos multiple times and my admiration grows. He did it in every bloody match he played. Football brilliance and souplesse. He is the most interesting player if not the best ever. What charisma he had. Cruyff is another dimension of playing in every aspect. And in pure talent and intellect. League of his own. Boy and meastro. An elegant predator. Wow. Electrifying. You were always on the edge of your seat with cruyff. He always suprised. Magnificent." And ofc also as a coach
Cruyff will be forever remembered as great footballer because of his great World Cup campaign. As an european cup footballer, he is on tier 2 - below Messi, Cristiano, Puskas, and Di Stefano. on par with Zidane
Cruyff is one the greatest UEFA Cup/Fairs cup players as well as European Cup, overall only Di Stefano, Cristiano and Messi are above him in international club level.
Di Stefano played in a time when defenses were far more open (1970s is the most violent decade, especially for teams outside the big countries, see what Celtic faced back then, even more so than 1980s that people like to talk aboit). Many star players of that time played until their late 30s (not the case for later decades). The competition was in its infancy. He also needed replays to advance, and Bernabeu arranged it in such way the replays/away matches were played in Madrid. Real Madrid crashing out in the first round (like 1970s Ajax and Barcelona did without the star player) is unthinkable. None of Cristiano his best campaigns (except 2007-08) are at the level of the best all-round players in the competition.
I'll just add a quick response here to that then also (I guess a Youtube comment you mean rather than an officially 'published' comment but as long as it's genuine which it seems like it would be, based on viewing of his play in various games at the time or retrospectively, then it is equally valid arguably) - I think it nicely and eloquently sums up a lot of his plus points for sure, even if it can verge on hyperbole as any similar comment about any player would I suppose (and I suppose it's fair to say "he did it in every bloody match" is an exaggeration because he wasn't always at his most sublime, complete or effective (even though as I alluded to, unlike for modern players, there will be a number of games where he might well have been that we just can't view). It did kind of remind me of some comments about Gyorgy Orth lol in a way (though thinking about those more I think that when it was said he has this aspect like Eusebio, this aspect like Kopa etc etc it won't have meant to imply he was like all the players mentioned completely combined into one anyway - some comments about Pele may have come close to meaning that I suppose though).
Just to clarify again though: I hope I didn't write any of my posts (mainly responses to Carlito) in too much of an 'arrogant'/decisive way, such as when talking about Messi vs Man Utd 2011. I guess it's fine to give opinions, but sometimes it's easy to write them as if they are facts I suppose (albeit I often go the other way to an extreme with lots of 'maybe', 'perhaps' in my posts etc which could be annoying at the other end of the spectrum....maybe....). I did always feel that game by Messi was a bit over-hyped, and tend to think of Xavi as MOTM more because of a very good performance than an absolutely amazing one, but I suppose my view is slightly amendable to an extent (I can look back again and see various positive play by Messi and wonder if I revise the idea slightly...and I do think that around that time in general is probably where he has the first version of himself that is major contender as best version arguably even if I might think circa 2015 on his best days as better I think) and anyway it's not for me to write like it's invalid to disagree with me (but yeah I do think in my view I'd still see those other performances in Finals Carlito mentioned in that post as better ones myself, with more outstanding specific plays and/or general play by the players concerned).
Yeah Messi vs man utd is a bit overrated, great 9/10 performance but not that special like Di Stefano in the 60 final or Eusebio 62 Some claim it's the best performance of Messi which is a laughable take.
It was also a United team with old Scholes and old Giggs in a two men midfield. Playing with a high line Ferdinand and Vidic couldn't cope with. Not a super good team and in a way comparable to Panathinaikos in 1971 (Panathinaikos did beat the champions of england). The real final was the semi final, which was effectively decided by a red card.
Ronaldo's performance in the Champions League 2013-14 is better than all of Cruyff's performances in the Champions League Cruyff is technically one of the top 3 players in history, along with Messi and Maradona, but in the Champions League, Ronaldo really performs at a different level. I don't know what your definition of a player's level is, but the level I saw from Ronaldo at that time was extraordinary, he performed very well in every game. The only game in which he didn't score a goal or assist was the semi-final round against Bayern Munich, who had a pre-assist. He played 120 minutes in the final despite being injured and didn't perform badly. I hope you give an explanation because your words are a bit illogical here
Carlo Ancelotti said he was 50% fit against Bayern https://amp.theguardian.com/football/2014/apr/24/cristiano-ronaldo-real-madrid-bayern-munich Cristiano Ronaldo is suffering from tendinosis in the region around his left kneecap, the Portuguese Football Federation (FPF) revealed on Wednesday. The FPF said the 29-year-old forward, who missed last week's 0-0 draw with Greece, underwent "specially adapted, individual" training on Monday. The World Player of the Year had minor injuries last season but scored in Real Madrid's Champions League final win. Portugal's opening World Cup match is against Germany in Salvador on 16 June. BBC Health and Science reporter James Gallagher explained that there were significant differences between tendinosis and the more commonly known tendinitis. "Tendons attach muscles to bone and are a common source of injury in sport," Gallagher says. "Tendinosis is caused by long-term wear and tear of the tendon. Low levels of damage build up if there is insufficient recovery time between matches. "It is not the same as tendinitis, which is the result of overloading the tendon, resulting in inflammation. "Pain and difficulty moving are common to both injuries and rest is the main treatment. "Recovery times for tendinosis depend on the scale of the damage, but in the most severe cases could be several months." https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/27700801.amp Cristiano Ronaldo 2013/14 is his best I agree and a level above 2016/17 as for the rest puckvanheel is butthurt at the ongoing onslaught against the overrated credentials of Cruyff that will continue unabated the next stop will be Johan Cruyff the greatest statpadder in the history of Europe’s leagues This is a taster Johan Cruyff in 1972/73 eredivisie 16 goals+15 assists goals+assists by Cruyff in league games Ajax won by a minimum of 3 goals 12 goals+11 assists https://www.transfermarkt.com/johan-cruyff/leistungsdaten/spieler/8021/saison/1972/plus/1 Johan Cruyff in eredivisie 1971/72 25 goals+20 assists goals+assists by Cruyff in games Ajax won by a minimum of 3 goals 19 goals+16 assists https://www.transfermarkt.com/johan-cruyff/leistungsdaten/spieler/8021/plus/1?saison=1971 Johan Cruyff in eredivisie 1970/71 21 goals+ 8 assists goals+assists by Cruyff in games Ajax won by a minimum of 3 goals 19 goals+ 7 assists https://www.transfermarkt.com/johan-cruyff/leistungsdaten/spieler/8021/plus/1?saison=1970 when the playing field was very slightly levelled(in the EC) and Cruyff wasn’t playing vs teams that allowed him to statpad to unprecedented levels the finishing ability looked something like this This is from 8 games If I had access to the 800~ that he actually played there will be tears flowing here This is your most technically gifted player of all time
8 matches 720 minutes +600 touches you found 8 bad plays from over 600 plays good job bro if you wanna talk about wins by +3 goals just take a look at Ajax results after Cruyff left, 1973/74 season to 1975/76 they couldn't even won eredivisie cup so your statemant stands for nothing, and before Cruyff they were 13th out of 16 teams in 64/65 season. not to mention ajax's rival was Ernst Happel the greatest manager ever. Yeah ajax dominated most of the matches cuz they had Cruyff, but you are god of fallacious arguments we know that.
curious, I want to your ratings for (if possible) of all European Cup games available? his best game is probably Marseille (8.5) and Benfica (possibly). the second best was Feyenoord (8-8.5) range. Bayern, Inter, Madrid away 7.5 range for Zidane I would argue Ajax H and Kyiv A 8.5-9 range. Monaco 8 and probably United 03 (H) the other performances are below 8