........ yes... I really like this football philosophy from Hungary in the 1950s. Truly a very dynamic team, fast, agile, wise movements and aggressive... a 4-pass mentality until the goal arrives. passes that are always vertical, fast, intelligent and precise... I really believe that Czibor had around 350 assists in his career. playing for Honved... Barcelona and Hungary national team .
Yeah, unfortunately the links I posted here don't work now I think, and I don't think I'd tried to look at Czibor's page in detail while they did: https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/g...he-best-players.2112404/page-51#post-40404836 I had made some posts on assists recorded there for a few of the Hungarian players (and Trachta had already referred to the Puskas ones) https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/g...he-best-players.2112404/page-51#post-40406293 https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/g...he-best-players.2112404/page-52#post-40406315 https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/g...he-best-players.2112404/page-52#post-40409139 For International games with Hungary the videos on Youtube can be pretty helpful I think though anyway (though not for all of the games I don't think).
I would say though, primarily from watching England-Hungary from 1953, that the passes were sometimes horizontal and there were moves with many more than 4 passes before shooting too, but yes in general they were progressive and looking to go forwards and create as much as possible that's true (not to waste time keeping the ball in midfield).
............ yes ..... That's why it's easily among the 20 greatest teams of all time. Yes, it was definitely a very complete football already. But between maintaining possession of the ball or attacking the goal (direction of the goal) they always attacked the goal . with very very aggression for me it's perfect ...
It actually was the philosophy of the central European countries Austria and Hungary and the foundation of the later Dutch Total Football. Ernst Happel was the one who introduced it in the Netherlands and shaped it into the 4-3-3 Total Football style. Michels just copied it, after being pressed by Cruijjff, who recognized the brilliance of it. It basically was ignored by the rest of the European football powers, despite us dominating European clubfootball since 1968, but they woke up in 1974, when the Orange Squad put it on the table.
I think this is closer to the truth and material reality than the Wilsonian nonsense about Vic Buckingham and Jack Reynolds. Typical Anglosaxon chicanery, that you often have also called out. "Blatant anglosaxon shit". Sadly, the Wilsonian nonsense is very influential. Certainly it was Happel, with input from his players - Happel was not an authoritarian - to make the switch to the famous 4-3-3 (not a lopsided one!). Before many other European countries. He was also earlier in the offside trap (at 1978 they played even more on offside than 1974). You cannot think of 'total football' or the Hollandse School without the classic 4-3-3. For me it is Happel above Michels yes, although both were great managers. But Michels won more European Cups, won the Euros and managed one of the most highly regarded club sides ever (in comes The Athletic flying in...) so he is often put ahead. Although of course there are many instances where figures haven't been enormously succesful and yet are still placed highly. Weakest point of Michels is simply how his trophy cabinet and league finishes look when Cruijff was not around in some capacity.
We already were influenced by Austrian football phylosophies with Franz Fuchs in the 1950ies-1960ies.
Before the EURO's started, the stronges football nations already had a Central European tournement, called the Mitropa.
The Austrian Wunderteam: The Austrian Wunderteam, painted by Paul Meissner. In 1932, Austria won the second edition of the 'Central European Cup' (Mitropa Cup for national teams). In the foreground, with a walking stick, the famous trainer-coach Hugo Meisl, with the (blonde) star player Mathia directly behind him
I think the relationship with that is very weak. The leap to full-professionalism really changes everything. That makes a huge difference. All that you have learned before, for reaching the real top level, has to be re-evaluated again. Then the entering of the babyboomers by the mid 1960s. The ones not directly affected by the shortages of the war. You can also say: Michels his Ajax was already recognized as top five team in Europe before Happel made the switch to 4-3-3 and offside trap. Austria traditionally leaned on different formations and different game concepts. But that doesn't change how Happel in cooperation with his players changed some things.
Happel introduced his ideas already at ADO den Haag, but was preceded by Fuchs there. Fuchs made it with Feyenoord as the first Dutch team into the semi final of the European Champions Cup in 1963 against Benfica. Both Fuchs and Happel were far ahead with their Austrian/Central European take on football, while Ajax wasnot a top European team yet. Ajax became dominant with the concepts of Happel after they in 1969 were confronted in the head to head clashes with the superiority of Happel's concept. Cruiiff forced a change and then they became the European top. I don't recall if they already had changed to 4-3-3 in the run up to the lost 1969 final, but after Feyenoord victory over Celtic in 1970, they definitely were using it in the triple winning run.
That 1963 Feyenoord team leaned on very different ideas as 1970 imho. It is like Capello his Milan vs Ancelotti his Milan.
As you mentioned the central European/Austrian teams were creative in concepts, which was apparent in this Austrian/ Feyenoord connection early and end of the 60ies.
This needs to be worked out I know but imho it became a totally different sport between the late 50s (often five forwards) and late 60s. Distances ran more than doubled, at the professional level. As a result of that the game concepts change. You have a different sport and different patterns of play. How players and opponents relate to each other. Let alone when you jump from (semi-)amateurism to full-professionalism. There is more but needs to be worked out properly. That doesn't change though Happel made a significant contribution and makes a lot more sense than name dropping Buckingham and the like. It is much closer to the truth to say Happel is the 'father' of the 1970s teams.
........ I disagree from you here dear mate with all due respect PuckVanHeel ! Examples this : Edson Arantes Pelé " Jumping Reach " Pelé had a formidable, extraordinary and incredible impulsion, sometimes reaching 3 meters in the air, stopping in the air like Cristiano Ronaldo sometimes does nowadays too ! ..... Pelé had very powerful headers, sometimes reaching 120 km per hour (km hrs)... as Gullit did this too.. in the Italian Championship at this time in the Italian championship they looked at the power of both headers and kicks . Pelé had highly powerful kicks with both his left and right foot. Likewise, Pelé and Pepé from Santos FC had shots of 160 km per hour or 140 km or 120 km many times in Brazil..there were several programs( tv shows) talking about this here.. So it makes no difference if Roberto Carlos, Ruud Gullit, Rivaldo, Eusebio , C. Ronaldo, Adriano drunk also kick extremely powerful shots from 120 km or 160 km... honestly this is a value or attribute of the game of football at any time. Attributes are measured if the PLAYER in question has or not ! Game attributes are not measured by decades for example, Alfredo Di Stefano, Duncan Edwards, Mario Jorge Zagallo, FRanz Beckenbauer( 1966 until 1972 ) and Sir Bobby Charlton ran the whole game for sure and the whole field too... much more than Ronaldo Nazario, Romário, Adriano Drunk and Ronaldinho Gaucho for example. lazy Players .. !
I really respect you and like you showing individual games of the past (I wasn't aware myself of Gullit vs Real Madrid in 1988 with a Robben/Garrincha type of goal) and I find it nice someone from Brazil/Santos likes our football and players. The country with 5 World Cups and so many great players (and for the 1994 World Cup you said a couple times we were disadvantaged to a stronger degree than I'd do). But I think it is hard to deny there hasn't been progress. One German study from the Sports University in Cologne (which has delivered some Bundestrainers/National Team managers for Germany) showed this for the average time on the ball in Champions League games: (in case the picture doesn't work: see this on imgur) As you can see, the mid-90s Ajax team, in away games, was (probably) a huge step up and also then there have been (marginal) improvements until 2012. The elite games Borussia Dortmund vs Juventus in 1993 for the UEFA Cup doesn't compare. Obviously the pitches, increase in substitutions (from 1 + 1 goalkeeper to 3 and now 5) has also helped but still. The modern pitches don't require burly, muscular players that much. Ajax was close to unbeaten in 1994-95, only lost because of a Golden Goal against Feyenoord in extra time in the semi finals. The 2002 UEFA Cup final of Borussia Dortmund vs Feyenoord, in De Kuip ("A record ten European finals have taken place in the stadium"), was a marginal improvement. Here some more (for speed, intensity etc.): https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/how-much-football-has-changed.1687646/page-2#post-33137035 By the way, this is also a good argument to be genuinely mad when someone as Titanlux, Tank comes along and doesn't really rate the mid-90s Ajax players that much ("only three good enough to play for England in 1993"). Or the FIFA world player of the year with no one higher than 14th. That is the handicap at the time and then another handicap decades later. Ajax isn't even my team! I genuinely (this is not soft-soaping) like you highlighting some games but as good as Pelé was, and as advanced Brazil was in football (Italy and England didn't bring a doctor to World Cups!), things have moved on. One can still really appreciate Pelé his technique and range of abilities though. edit: the imgur link does work! click that!
On you citing the km/h speed in headers and shots; I don't know where you get this from but yes, I think and see this has not improved as much. Part of this are (maybe) the balls used but also that players were, as said before, really more burly and muscular. Taller too (advantage Netherlands!), and with a backlift of the leg that generates more power. It works as a lever. Basic mechanics; I say this with my dinky toys knowledge of physics. Many of the greatest players of the last 15 years are relatively short, shorter than the average population (of Europe and Netherlands, the tallest country on the planet).
................ by Rai Italian TVshows .... go to 6:00 minutes The game's commentator said that Ruud Gullit kicked 122 km/h... something that hadn't happened in the Italian championship since 1986 and since when they started there has been calculating the power of kicks and headers
.............. go to minutes 8: 30 on the video and please to pause in this moment ..... so look the Jumping reach and impulsion in the air ... really incredible .... 3 defenders marking the Pelé in this Plays .
Thank you! Really didn't know this. Yes, I think that must be about correct. For Ronald Koeman, 1.84m tall in his playing days, certain English lists state he shot 188 km/h (and videos) but he himself said: How fast were you actually shooting? “They have sometimes measured 122, 123 kilometers per hour. Too fast for most highways in any case.” I think this is because back then the great players were taller than average. Pelé (1.73m or 1.74) was also taller than the Sao Paulo and Brazil average of that time (the age pyramid of Sao Paolo back then... bonkers). That creates a backlift and lever. @Tom Stevens made once a list of great players XI of 1.90m tall or above: the Dutch and northern Belgians dominate such list with options and possibilities. "The changing demands of the game are also reflected in the changing bodies on football fields. Players have become taller and slimmer. English researchers confirmed that football players have changed from 'mesomorphic' to 'ectomorphic' in fifty years: from stocky and muscular to slender and muscular. The explanation? Running and sprinting are simply better with streamlined bodies. And especially on modern football fields. On the winter muddy fields of the past, muscle strength was an advantage; on today's billiard tables, speed and flexibility are more important." https://decorrespondent.nl/15350/wa...n-worden/7948c490-9b46-0974-397b-0ba563c54d5d Also that is likely an explanation why the heading and shot speed has not moved up much or not at all. I think that part might be correct. Nice find! edit: forgot the link.
Here the source for this (page 14 of the pdf, page 390 of the document): https://epub.ub.uni-muenchen.de/108186/1/1615-634x-2014-3-377.pdf Here something about dribbling: https://duepublico2.uni-due.de/servlets/MCRFileNodeServlet/duepublico_derivate_00013210/13-FB.pdf In this you can also see that unlike what is often believed and perpetuated, the 1970s was the most violent decade in terms of hard fouls. The first link shows what FIFA started to do in the 1980s, including special protection for star players (I guess they decide who that should be in World Cups). Euro 1988 was considerably tougher tournament than 1986 in Mexico.
.................. https://www.google.com/search?q=pep...ate=ive&vld=cid:991ac27d,vid:tx2nf94-sCM,st:0 go to 7: 00 minutes Pepé Pepé told the Brazilian journalist there that he, on average, kicked harder than Roberto Carlos... Pepé on average always kicked 122 km/h or more +++ stronger than that and Roberto Carlos 109 km/h on average. later shows one freekick
I wasn't aware of this literature study ("a literature study", mentioned in the Gullit thread) but what I said is 'confirmed' here below. It is by the way also arguable how new the 'gegenpressing' concept is; you can argue Van Gaal at Ajax did this and it is also not coincidental Klopp has leaned on Dutch people for implementation. The balls, pitches and fitness levels have evolved obviously. "Gegenpressing? I have to laugh a little about that. Then I think to myself: That's a new slogan for something that has been around for some time." https://www.vi.nl/pro/overig/adrie-koster-gegenpressing-daar-moet-ik-een-beetje-om-lachen 'Michels and Cruijff are together the fathers of total football' The Dutch football library has been enriched with a literature study. One with a typically Dutch subject: 'The Dutch school of total football'. In the book, author Rob Siekmann provides a scientific interpretation of the history of the phenomenon and takes the reader along in the further development of the playing style that has grown into the prevailing concept of the game in contemporary football. The author explains how he came up with the idea to commit this literature study to paper: “I read a lot of sports books and also football books. Two years ago, the book 'Buitenkant links' by Willem van Hanegem was published and it is about tactics, among other things. He thought 'total football' was a nonsense term from journalists, which had been made much too important and had come about during the 1974 World Cup. That statement convinced me that a book had to be published about total football.” Developers Siekmann was already well-versed in the subject through an earlier publication on Cruijff and went to work thoroughly. “Like a scientist, I read hundreds of books on this concept. Much more emerged than I had ever suspected. Based on literature, the trainers Rinus Michels, Johan Cruijff, Valeri Lobanovski, Arrigo Sacchi, Louis Van Gaal, Pep Guardiola and to a certain extent also Jürgen Klopp are the developers of total football. Each of these trainers added something to the concept, from the goalkeeper who plays along to 'Gegenpressing'.” “Other big names like Leo Beenhakker, Guus Hiddink and Dick Advocaat were not involved in the development of the phenomenon, but were emphatically involved in its application. Hiddink did this in South Korea by breaking through the hierarchy in the team. On the field, the younger player handed the ball over to the older player. Hiddink concluded that total football could not be played in this way.” Counterparts According to Siekmann, total football is more or less fully developed. The term is hardly used anymore and the prevailing trend is 'total football-like'. "But you never know", says Siekmann. The two great counterparts that have achieved world fame are 'kick and rush' and 'catenaccio'. "With the originally English 'kick and rush', opportunistic play is played with long balls, searching for depth with high balls, the battle for the second ball and winning headers. And the 'catenaccio' linked to Italy is defending in your own half, keeping position, and then breaking out very quickly, also called counter football." “A nice find of my study is that Arrigo Sacchi introduced total football in Italy. As a young man he came to Amsterdam as a sales representative in his father's shoe company. He went to see Michels and that was an eye-opener for him. That's how he introduced football to AC Milan and became successful with it. Sacchi explains the original defensive style of play of the Italians with the supposed national character. Just as the Netherlands always naturally takes initiative and has sailed the world's oceans. The disadvantage is that the Netherlands had difficulty with a 'Plan B' (read: different system) because they play too forcefully with 'Plan A' (total football). If it is not executed to the maximum, it becomes dry and boring. All the balls go wide and back to the keeper. From the build-up all the way back to the back. Playing forward with initiative and verve and surprise, that is the basis. If that falls away, it will actually work against you.” Formations Total football can be applied in all formations. “Cruijff swore by 4-3-3, but he also varied formations. For example, with a hanging striker from the left. But total football can also be performed with 5-3-2, as long as the basic principles are applied. 'You don't have to stand there, you have to get there' is such a slogan. People moving and dynamics must be present. The 1988 European Championship with Michels and a 4-4-2, the 2010 World Cup with national coach Bert van Marwijk and the 2014 World Cup with Van Gaal and 5-3-2. Much is possible, as long as there is sufficient movement in the team. With and without the ball. The latter is essential and much more fundamental than that combination of numbers.” Who inspired Michels? “For this Ernst Happel is mentioned, who is said to have introduced elements such as counterpressing and fore-checking. During his period at Feyenoord, Happel had noticed fore-checking at HIJS Hokij ice hockey in The Hague and had implemented it in football. But it is mainly the interaction between Michels and Cruijff. The player Cruijff who listens to the trainer and Cruijff can adapt it to his own taste on the field and put it into practice. The fathers of total football are Michels and Cruijff in a co-production. The successors are further developers.” Another book Who is the book interesting to read? “It is interesting for trainers and coaches and sports journalists. For an audience that is broadly interested in tactics. If you delve into the book, you will really benefit from it. It is certainly not a popular book, but for an informed football audience. For those who want to know more about the historical background. For example, there are also influences from Brazilian football and there is even a tentative philosophical explanation, based on our history as seafarers. As a small country, we had to travel the world and that is what we did.” Siekmann has already written several books about the rules of the game and also one about Cruijff. And another title may follow in a few years. “I am indeed working on a new book. The working title is 'The others about Cruijff: players, trainers, managers'. People as varied as Michael van Praag, Keje Molenaar, Arie Haan, Richard Witschge, they all talk about Cruijff in their biographies. A remarkable player who was already a kind of trainer on the field. I am very curious to see what will come of it. Very interesting and it fits in within the 'Cruijffology'. It will take another year or two before it is finished.” https://www.sportknowhowxl.nl/nieuw...zijn-de-vaders-van-het-totaalvoetbal-e2-80-99 ['Cruijffology' is the phenomenon that many different countries have their own set of books about him; for example the Schulze-Marmeling one 'Der König und sein Spiel' is not translated in English or in Dutch. Not only popular books, but also books for trainers and coaches.]