Top-3 dribblers of each era

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by Gregoire1, Mar 17, 2023.

  1. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    I am not sure about the ordering of those two and not sure about the #1 position. Wirtz has around 2.5 dribbles per game and less than 50% success rate. In the Europa League 1.4 successful dribbles per game and 42% success rate. Let me also repeat Wirtz is actually 'beaten' by Musiala and Simons in all the algorithms (Whoscored, Sofascore etc.). Robben and Hazard at their pomp had higher volumes and markedly higher success rates, against packed defenses and/or less favorable league.

    I need to find an appropriate thread now for a reply on Laudrup and what Wiliam said... the 100 greatest all time thread I think. Laudrup was basically everything someone like Ozil had and a whole lot more. Not as great a counter-attacking player (mid-block player) as Kaka, yet still very potent.
     
  2. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Yeah, it's possible I've been seduced by the Wirtz highlights a bit too much (given what I said about not seeing enough live footage outside PL/WC/Euros now...not that I ever followed the Bundesliga week to week in the past as such anyway though), but it seems evident he is capable to glide past players with ease and dribble past them in various ways overall (and keep good control when running with the ball at pace) so he seems to have the ingredients to be number 1 for 2020s at least....

    You know I like/admire Michael Laudrup's play (including dribbling) obviously, though to be fair I think Wiliam has a point to an extent in terms of not always asserting his maximum capabilities in big games and suchlike (perhaps being more on the fringes of the play).... even though for sure he has big games he played very well in at times (some with a pretty consistent influence on play too) as well as some seasons at Barcelona where he was generally getting high ratings for his games in successful seasons in which his influence on the team's play on the creative side went beyond the basic direct goals/assists stats I think it's clear to say.... and also a point about not being a 'total footballer' in the fullest sense compared to some of the other 'all-time' type players.
     
  3. Isaías Silva Serafim

    Real Madrid
    Brazil
    Dec 2, 2021
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Top 5 rated performances only by players who reached the final:

    Johan Cruyff 1974
    8.74

    Hellmut Haller 1966
    8.48

    Gerd Müller 1970
    8.48

    Lothar Matthäus 1990
    8.40

    Diego Maradona 1986
    8.39

    There are 4 players who had better ratings than Maradona 86
     
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  4. Isaías Silva Serafim

    Real Madrid
    Brazil
    Dec 2, 2021
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Gerd Müller didn't reach the final lol my fault

    So the 5th spot is between Pelé 70 or Kempes 78 both with 7.33
     
  5. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #330 carlito86, Jun 22, 2024
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2024

    @Isaías Silva Serafim @Sexy Beast

    first half of the 1980s candidate(top 3 dribbler)

    there’s not enough footage to go by even though this is by far the longest on YT

    IMO based on what is available I think Maradona(in absolute peak form)only has athleticism as an advantage in dribbling over magico Gonzales.
    In tight spaces I see no difference and in skills they were equally inventive

    Maradona was a devastating athlete though before the drugs and before the bullshit
     
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  6. Isaías Silva Serafim

    Real Madrid
    Brazil
    Dec 2, 2021
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil


    What a performance! Catch the ball on the right flank near his own box, a long ball and crossing machine, knows how to dribble and shoots with power
     
  7. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord



    Wonderful account! Do you know more like them PDG?

    1966 and 1970 has a few high performers, because of the characteristics of the tournament. 1974, 1986 and of course 1990 a lot less so. Gap with #2 and others in same tournament just as relevant.
     
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  8. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Not as such I don't think off the top of my head (that's the same account that had the Cruyff vs Liverpool highlights too isn't it), although I have been looking a bit more at some tweets (if we still call them that) on there about football of late, and occasionally there is a nice video (as well as some of those top 10/11 all-time player lists from the likes of Matthews or Hidegkuti popping up).
     
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  9. Isaías Silva Serafim

    Real Madrid
    Brazil
    Dec 2, 2021
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Why do you think that?
     
  10. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    It's easy to see the 1966 and 1970 had more high performers and also the team averages appear to be higher.

    I think because the shots per game was higher in 1966 and 1970 (especially 1966) and also because of a low pass accuracy. 1966 had by far the lowest pass accuracy (1970 was helped by the altitude and weather). 1970 by far the highest goals per game.

    Lower pass accuracy means less 'small' actions and more 'big' actions like tackles, dribbles, interceptions, transitions and line-pearcing passes etc. Just more action. With the heatmaps you can also see a lot of the action in 1966 was in the middle of the field - also that is more beneficial than the sides or your own penalty area.

    If I am wrong about this, okay, but it has to be reasoned then.
     
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  11. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #336 PuckVanHeel, Jul 9, 2024
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2024
    Just to be maybe a bit helpful for you.

    I am not really sure Wilkes has to be number one for 1950s but high up I'd agree with. Somewhere in the top 10 I think, but very hard to know for that era. It is a bold and brave call certainly to put him number one but apparently you think so based on footage against certain opponents. Genuinely hard to give a somewhat certain top five. Top 10 I'd think so.

    Of course, you can bet on the "real football historians" to not put him among the 100 best players in the world for any season in the 1950s... and include him nowhere (this project with also @comme in and then Hungary as greatest 20th century team, lol, and Di Stefano transforming Real Madrid, lol - with one and two points less the previous seasons yeah... and with other summer signings as well, including Gento. The "gamesmanship" brigade want to have a connection to the public though. If they can credibly put Busquets ahead of Cruijff, Klinsmann level with Van Basten, without laughed out of town, it wouldn't surprise me they will do. Secretly they - or some of them - want to do this or already did).

    * why is Hungary as arguably greatest 20th century team "LOL"? Because obviously many countries didn't really compete, isolated themselves and many countries in the world still felt the effects of the war and occupation. Some regions more than others, especially where a famine was. "One of the greatest" is accurate and fair.

    edit: tag included later ;)
     
  12. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Yes, with Faas Wilkes it has to be based on an estimation and feeling I suppose, but evidently he's very well regarded for dribbling in particular. Maybe you will like these posts, from the days before you (or I!) were forum members:
    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/the-all-time-draft-selection-thread.287684/page-8#post-7839445
    I have a feeling the same guy might have said something like he was similar to Garrincha in dribbling ability (not to say better) on one of the threads linked to that All-Time draft, or elsewhere (or another Dutch guy said it on an old thread somewhere anyway!)

    Of course there are some nice compilations that have been made, and also some exceptional moments of dribbling that can be found on Youtube:
    (41:35)
    (1:19)
     
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  13. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    In some decades lists you see sometimes also Rensenbrink and such. But I actually think Van Basten might be the most underrated dribbler, at his best at least. Also with the name he (still) has. You have tipped me once about a halfway line dribble vs Finland and that's a decent example yeah. Relative to the standing he has he looks very underrated.

    In 1988 final six successful dribbles, which is a record in a euros final (over 90 minutes). Moreover, this was a really strong opponent and unlike say 1972 also not squad and players split between the Olympics and Euros. USSR was #1 in Elo before the start of the tournament and #1 before the start of final. Rating well above 2000 points, which is really high for that time (there is some inflation as the years progress). In Sofascore USSR was #4, very close behind #2, and before the final #2 in team ranking. So it was just a strong opponent. They didn’t have major injuries or suspensions either? (Not sure now?).

    Anyway, just a thought. That he really might be underrated. At his best and in major games at least. As we have seen, in 1990WC listed as midfielder sometimes and also MOTM even. Without scoring a single goal (but with one assist and penalty won yes). An indication of how good he could be, when he was actually good and in form (it was also a very long season - Serie A topscorer, playing in all the possible club finals incl. Intercontinental Cup, competing for title until the last day).

    Garrincha is a bit overrated I think, yeah, you already knew this. I'd have some Brazilians higher.
     
  14. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Six successful dribbles in 7 attempts even! 86% success rate in the final. Incredible!

    See also that 1986-87 season video you made me aware of (with not all games of the season avalaible in full length or so - this are mostly the best and most high profile matches. Also against top level Brazilian teams by the way, you see him playing there against)
     
  15. Maybe you mean me? I mentioned several times my two favourite dribblers were Coen Moulijn and Garrincha...so not Faas.
     
  16. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    No, the comment I was thinking of was definitely about Wilkes. I was thinking maybe related to that draft, but unless he mis-spelt Garrincha or something it doesn't appear to be by the guy that picked him, so I'm not sure now, but am pretty sure I didn't imagine it anyway lol!

    I probably did see you mention Moulijn at times, and I know you were a forum member already around that time, but the recollection is definitely about Wilkes (maybe it just got mixed up about the recollection he'd been picked by a Dutchman in that draft I linked).
     
  17. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Yeah, I remember us discussing a halfway-line dribble for the Netherlands at least I think, but it's another thing that is a bit hazy in my mind now!

    It might have been vs Finland but I don't find something right now. I did find a very nice assist to Wouters for a disallowed goal (for some reason that doesn't seem clear), but not any such dribble/run from halfway (I was scrolling through the footage rather than leaving it playing but I think I checked regularly enough to have spotted it on any of the highlights vs Finland videos from 1989 or 1991)

    (Early on the video)
    Also (even though I didn't put it on that video I made re: best goals/assists) arguably one of Gullit's best assists, involving some dribbling, towards the end of this video that @Wiliam Felipe Gracek will like but surely will already know about I think!

    Maybe Wiliam will even know which Van Basten run we might be thinking about, although that is hard when we are a bit vague about it. After all Wiliam was the one who made this, including the skill/invention/dribbling from Van Basten from around 0:22:


    Anyway, yeah Van Basten for sure was both able to be good with close control and tight dribbling, aided by his excellent agility and body movement for a tall player, and could also do the longer dribbles at good speed. Maybe I can doubt whether I really place him below C.Ronaldo (albeit 2 places) for the dribbling component I refer to here (of course it is going to e really difficult to decide to place him above or below someone like Schiaffino as a dribbler given the lack of footage). Anyway you can see for passing/goalscoring/dribbling all combined I think he might well be top 10:
    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/cristiano-ronaldo-12-13-vs-van-basten.2108026/page-9#post-42236622
    Judging by what Bertje said about Wilkes, mentioning passing too, maybe he could even be eligible for such a list (I have the impression it was predominantly dribbling that he really excelled at the most though). I still don't find the comment about Wilkes/Garrincha I recalled, but anyway whether it was by Bertje or not I think it's clear he was mostly going by what he had read about him, not footage (which makes sense, given the lack of availability even now, especially for the Valencia period...and the fact Youtube was just starting back then - I assume he was too young to see him live and of course Wilkes played club football in Italy and Spain in his peak, moving away from the Netherlands)
    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/interesting-best-xi.325564/page-2#post-6025665
    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/best-club-all-time-xi.286144/#post-7132434
     
  18. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Re: similarities to Garrincha (that I mentioned in the quoted section of the above post I linked and talked about re: passing/dribbling/goalscoring and Van Basten) one player (that maybe because of the abundance of candidates in his era I didn't mention before on this thread) that I think had some kind of similarity in his dribbling would be Jimmy Johnstone of Scotland and Celtic (maybe more than those other players I mentioned, although for sure Matthews and Garrincha have similarity I think, particularly in stopping the defender and then dropping the shoulder and moving past on the outside - typical/traditional winger play I suppose). Maybe Zoltan Czibor did in some respects too....
     
  19. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Here also two good moves after 1:10:30



    Dribble at the wing and then a bit later through the middle.
     
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  20. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024





    .......................
    For me.. The main issue is PuckVanHeel as a good Dutch hunter and a good hunter of Dutch football relics. he should try to find the videos with the entire Ajax games from the 1984-85 ... 1985-86 ... 1986-87 seasons, as exactly did Kees de Wit do in the Feyenoord videos from 1983-84 ... Who broadcast the Eredivisie in the 80s ????? at Ajax museum has the games ???
     
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  21. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024



    by PES or winning eleven older versions Status :


    .... Van Basten dribbling skills .... at his peak between... 93-94 ...... 89-91


    ..... Van Basten dribbling skills average mode between .... 86-89
     
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  22. Wiliam Felipe Gracek

    Santos FC
    France
    Feb 3, 2024



    yes Czibor one of the most underrated players of all times in the whole World ... he is equals to Adolfo Pedernera for sure ..... he was a great player ... " really amazing "


     
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  23. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Hmm yeah, maybe you know that better than me (the numbers in a computer) but I'd say his dribbling is really underrated yeah. See also the two 1989 Supercup games against Barcelona (both on youtube), for example. I am not meaning a regular league game of course, I mean real top level games and stages like the euro 1988 final. Certainly compared to the standing he has (still - some are trying hard...) I feel he and we get 'wronged' here. Also really strong in tight spaces (more than, say, the Ballon d'Or winners Rummenigge or Stoichkov from roughly that time or surrounding times), really, the danger zones (which some of your own videos showed well).

    Also underrated is his left foot. See that assist for Rijkaard in 1993 vs PSV, the scene above, or this left footed cross at 2:47 in the Pfaff video. Pfaff had by the way a Dutch mother and could have played for Netherlands as well (he lived with seven other kids in a caravan during his youth). He was a good friend of Cruijff certainly (Cruijff wrote the foreword for his autobiography, it is actually well written and crafted). Some point out Belgium has had maybe more great goalkeepers as Netherlands... that's not unreasonable and fair enough, you cannot be good or the best in everything... but in a slightly different world both Pfaff and Courtois play for 'Holland'. It is not so easy! At a minimum both countries are not like Portugal, Spain, Italy or Croatia where you just naturalize a Brazilian if you like or consistently your players are born and raised abroad. From Prosinecki in the 1990s to Rakitic in more recent times.

    Sometimes it also gets underrated how 'advanced' that time already was. The Soviets worked with computers (and we too) and they couldn't model Gullit. Matthaus yes, Maradona yes, Van Basten yes... you name it, but not Gullit. Gullit himself says rightly to Rio Ferdinand that Van Breukelen had a book, the Jan Reker book, with all penalties written down by opponents. The video recorder already existed, you know. What Van Basten managed to do, even at the 1990 World Cup, needs to be taken seriously.

    All that The Athletic nonsense about the butcher Pickford and his water bottles... it is not so new at all. It is the 1980s Big Mac put in the magnetron. The only thing that is relatively new is literally zero positive The Athletic articles in the past two years about Orange fans (no, we get stuff like this, among a number of others) and a whole catalogue about Black Pete, racism etc. Just bile and lacking any perspective or sense for proportionality. comme, the "true historians" and pals find it a fantastic outlet.
     
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  24. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Other example from the stone age; football and sports sometimes not as backward as thought:

    "If you ship many thousands of liters of fresh water to Mexico in 1970, like West Germany did, that is good for them. They have that means and it is legit you don't want to be ill."

    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/greatest-dribbler-ever.2131181/
     
  25. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Yes, here is the synopsis of that Millonarios vs Real Madrid game:
    Millionaires 4-2 Real Madrid 1952 A day like today the 'Blue Ballet' was born: Real Madrid 2-4 Millionaires: A day like today the 'Blue Ballet' was born: Real Madrid 2-4 Millionaires (caracol-com-co.translate.goog)
    Pedernera himself was at his peak about a decade earlier I suppose, but I guess Di Stefano was coming into his peak or it might be argued in his peak around that time.
    Interesting that they were praised so much within Spain, but then Real Madrid won the 'Small Club World Cup' including two draws vs Millonarios:
    1952 Small Club World Cup - Wikipedia
    I remember that you think highly of Czibor in the 1954 World Cup; this video from Hungary-Italy in 1955 is a good one to illustrate his qualities I think, in running/dribbling, control, movement, speed, setting up chances/goals and playing on both sides of the pitch:

    The similarity to Garrincha is I'd say the adept movement with the ball, quick turning, elusive body movement etc....
     
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