Hmm, I can't be sure I know better, but if you see the link (the USSR's 'top 33' each year) you will see Ilyin listed at number 11 multiple times and Spartak Moscow team-mate at number 9. I saw a Simonian highlights video one time with an assist by Ilyin from the left that stood out IIRC, but anyway I feel like he was likely number 11, but it could be that (moreso with club?) he could play like a Cliff Bastin as goalscoring winger. I think in early 50s at Inter Skoglund was inside left. There are some 1951/52 highlights on Youtube vs AC Milan, but also here it can be indicated: https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/various-stuff-i-found-from-the-40s-60s.2092755/#post-37409448 But he'd also be like a goalscoring winger (or almost second striker) I suppose, Nyers, yes, in terms of role and attributes. I'll answer re: Thern etc next (sorry I was about to, then saw your new reply and did this one first)
That's what I think, in the famous "Barça de las Cinco Copas". Also alongside the goalscorer, César (whom I decided to count as pre-50, although it is debatable because it seems to have had his best seasons between 1948-49 and 1950-51). Yes, that's why I use this feedback exercise and notice small errors.
Hmm, yeah, he does divide opinion I think, and not only re: longevity. I'd say in terms of gameplay he starred more in 1978 than 1982 actually, and maybe this video shows it quite well: Perhaps Di Natale was more skilled (but not by a lot maybe), but Paolo was much 'sharper' I think in movements, anticipation, acceleration etc. Probably if I suggest a striker for all-time Italy I think of either him or Piola (assuming not both if they have so many trequartista types). I think in Serie A 1983/84 would be his final excellent season. He was evidently a player who could score goals but also one who could set up team-mates and bring others into the game well generally (and make space for them).
I considered Kipiani's prime to be between 1975 and 1981 (abruptly cut off by a fracture), although I read that he also had a promising start of career cut short by some inactivity in 1974. Regarding Khvicha, I know he started to stand out in the Russian League earlier, but he would appear on my radar from the 2022-23 season onwards (since he arrived at Napoli). Although I believe Kvaratskhelia has reached a higher peak (although I don't think it was by a long margin), in terms of what I would consider his career level, I think it's still debatable. I wouldn't feel as confident as popular opinion with him already being the GOAT of his country, although perhaps very soon.
Hmm not sure I agree, respectfully. At 25 already won Serie A Player of the Year and most importantly, Champions League Player of the Year for the most recent season. With respect to the latter, that is an astounding peak for any player, ever. That is Ballon D'Or level worthy achievement, as most who have won that distinction have actually gone on to win the Ballon in the same year. That is a level of achievement supremely above any other Georgian player ever, by far.
Perhaps I'm too strict in my idea of applying a very realistic tactical system to ideal XIs, which is why I would sacrifice some bigger stars in favor of the best system. I suppose that in a similar system I wouldn't use Roberto Carlos in a back-3 or sharing the flank with Gento. I would also prefer Pirri, either in a hybrid role alongside another central midfielder or dropped back as sweeper. Contrary to popular opinion, I think Cristiano Ronaldo has never truly shown himself to be an elite number 9 (something difficult given his back-to-goal play and/or his ability to hold a fixed position/draw defenders), but rather that his prime saw him develop more as a free-roaming attacker (wing-forward or support striker).
He has not been a right-winger in the last two seasons to be honest, but rather a false 9. He surpassed guys like Abedi Pelé and Chris Waddle in my humble opinion (and I say this as a long-time Olympique de Marseille follower).
Yes, I didn't mean to imply that criticism could diminish his achievements (in fact, I did include him in my Top 500), especially considering all his accomplishments. However, I would consider Carvalho's skills to be more complex. I'm more impressed by his abilities (especially his performance alongside Terry in the EPL being a brain for the muscle), and I would even say that I think his performances in the UCL were somewhat superior, despite being less successful there. Even more so, his performance in the 2004 European Championship was better than Pepe's in 2016 for me, even though he didn't win it (and in a World Cup, 2006).
That's a great correction! I completely forgot that Skoglund also played as an inside-forward, and the scans from the link about Italian football are brilliant. Nyers is often described as a striker; however, it seems to me that in Italy, "striker" isn't the same as centre-forward/goal poacher, but rather describes a player who prioritizes scoring from any position. I'll have to move Nyers to support striker (perhaps in the role of a false/goalscoring winger, like Blokhin, Cristiano Ronaldo or Mbappé).
Yes, I wasn't attempting to make a claim for you to put Lizarazu higher than R.Carlos of course (only emphasising how much I thought Lizarazu was an exceptional left back I guess with that comment), and it's true that R.Carlos, in a different way, was a kind of unique defender from attacking point of view, like Beckenbauer was also. I suppose it could be said though that Stuart Pearce was more potent in attack than Maldini, and more tenacious in tackling too, but less adept in controlling/combining etc in possession and less agile, intuitive, aware on the defensive side - maybe a claim for Lizarazu over R.Carlos (I guess in real-time back in 90s or early 00s it was a minority view like I suggested, but not a totally absent one among fans overall) would be on a similar basis, although less clear (and of course unlike Maldini he wasn't also world class as centre back, perhaps right back, too). Maybe I'm a bit hasty on Bo Larsson, but if I want to watch in more detail it would have to be full games I suppose (and maybe even then his best ones won't be available even). I've said several times that Thern made my 1994 World Cup XI I picked after following the maximum I could (including all Swedish games maybe - the only games I wouldn't have seen in full would have not been broadcast live in UK), although I did go with a 4-4-2 with a 'questionable' midfield pairing (or typical all-star pairing arguably) of Thern and Hagi I remember (in Sweden's team Schwarz was more the tenacious one and a bit more defensive, and Thern would do more playmaking although still basically a midfield partner for Schwarz). Unlike for Brolin there isn't a quick and easy highlights video reference, but like you said you've seen him playing in that tournament anyway. He wouldn't necessarily be someone who I think has to be included, but yeah maybe I felt his peak level was a bit over that of the strikers (and potentially Bo Larsson from what I knew/saw so far). It's true his seasons were a bit injury-interrupted though (even though you can see on DBS Calcio he only has green/positive ratings for all his Serie A years and Intl tournaments with Sweden too). Guerin Sportivo did name Thern, with Liedholm and Gren (not Green) in their attempt at an All-Time Sweden XI in 1994 (before World Cup IIRC): https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/s...-player-ratings.2085771/page-99#post-38938337 You can see they do have Edstrom in from the 1970s.... I guess a vague idea of his positive attributes can be gained from some Youtube videos, but nothing extensive: Jonas Thern gör mål mot IFK Göteborg 1989 - YouTube Jonas Thern ● Skills ● Foggia 0:1 Napoli ● Serie A 1993-94 - YouTube Soccer pass of the century Team Sweden Jonas Thern for Martin Dahlin SUÉCIA 3 X 1 RÚSSIA - COPA 1994 - FASE DE GRUPOS - MELHORES MOMENTOS - YouTube (Assist for 2nd goal but you saw it already maybe) Jonas Thern 1st (Official) International Goal Sweden v France 16 AUG 1989 - YouTube
Yeah, maybe Ilyin's case can be similar even, but I wouldn't be confident in suggesting not to call Ilyin a left winger in essence (Nyers as in effect a supporting striker seems legit, in the same way Riva sometimes played that kind of role later in Italy I suppose).
People often tell me this. I feel that these kinds of recent achievements are somewhat less significant than they usually are when they occurred much earlier (I'm not necessarily referring to Khvicha's case, but to the general situation). For example, while it's true that Kipiani was never considered the best player in the European Cup, I think that benchmark was different in its representation, and both Soviet football and the European Cup Winners' Cup could represent a not-so-distant scenario for demonstrating a footballer's peak at late 70s and early 80s. Therefore, although I can agree that it is a higher peak, I am not so convinced that it is by far enough to unbalance any difference in consistency/longevity. Anyway, it's very subjective, it's not an argument I could base it on with certainty, but rather on my own personal perception. Perhaps I need a little more time to process the dimension of active footballers (also common).
Re: Nyers, I suppose this can be good confirmation that Liedholm did place him (as honourable mention rather than in his top 5 choices) as left winger option in the mid 80s re: his All-Time XI selections btw too (but it doesn't mean I think calling him support striker in effect seems wrong, like I said): https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/interesting-best-xi.325564/page-74#post-43441458 Jornal dos Sports (RJ) - 1980 a 1989 - DocReader Web He wasn't being selected/suggested in mid 1950/51 for a Europe XI by the people involved here anyway though (but maybe he would be in the discussion in theory if so highly rated in a league like Serie A): https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/the-50-best-footballers.2134762/page-4#post-42977759 Corriere dello Sport 1951 - 32 - Fascicolo: 12 He wasn't placed in 1953/54 in any of the top slots by CdS, so hard to be sure which role he would have been placed in that season (i think Skoglund is wearing number 10 on the video below though isn't he. albeit going down the left and crossing to Nyers): https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/p...ir-best-players.2126578/page-18#post-43555233 Istvan NYERS
@Buyo, has hecho un análisis genial de Quini, quien por cierto, era más que un simple goleador. No es que fuera infravalorado, pero por las razones que has esgrimido, a nivel europeo no fue lo suficientemente conocido. Yo no me atrevería a decir cuál de los dos era mejor; los dos están muy parejos. Como bien sabes, me gusta cuantificar las hazañas de los grandes futbolistas; a ver si eso me ayuda en un futuro al empate técnico que para mí, tienen en este momento. Estarás al tanto que durante muchos años, no dejaron a Quini salir del club por culpa del nefasto derecho de retención como bien sabrás. De lo contrario, hubiera tenido más ocasiones de brillar en Europa. Te recomiendo que veas un "Conexión Vintaje" un reportaje que hicieron sobre Quini hace ya un buen tiempo. Por supuesto, el más actual y a serie sobre su secuestro. El pobre era mejor persona que futbolista, que ya es difícil. Si bien Santillana era tu ídolo (también lo admiré muchísimo, sobre todo por sus hazañas en las copas europeas), mi ídolo de niño era Quini. ¿Cómo puede ser que un niño burgalés tuviera al Sporting de Gijón como equipo favorito? Precisamente por la presencia de Quini. Al fichar por el Barcelona, me hice del Barça, aunque mis respetos por todos los equipos, incluido el Madrid @Buyo, you've done a brilliant analysis of Quini, who, by the way, was more than just a goalscorer. It's not that he was underrated, but for the reasons you've mentioned, he wasn't well enough known at the European level. I wouldn't dare say which of the two was better; they're very evenly matched. As you know, I like to quantify the achievements of great footballers; let's see if that helps me in the future with the virtual tie they currently have, in my opinion. You'll be aware that for many years, Quini wasn't allowed to leave the club because of the infamous retention rights, as you well know. Otherwise, he would have had more opportunities to shine in Europe. I recommend you watch "Vintage Connection," a documentary they did on Quini quite some time ago. Of course, watch the more recent one and a series about his kidnapping. The poor guy was a better person than he was a footballer, which is saying something. While Santillana was your idol (I also admired him greatly, especially for his exploits in European competitions), my childhood idol was Quini. How could a boy from Burgos have Sporting Gijón as his favorite team? Precisely because of Quini. When he signed for Barcelona, I became a Barça fan, although I respect all teams, including Real Madrid
I mean I would disagree insofar as there is no objectivity to conclude that this is true and I can only surmise it to be bias and nostalgia. The Champions League now, if anything, is much more competitive than the historic European Cup because there aren't anywhere near as many limitations on teams that can enter. Now, the best teams in Europe will compete in the tournament, doesn't matter if they're 3rd in England or otherwise. This can also be seen by less occurrences of repeat winners as compared to the past - it's tougher to win and is much more global insofar as clubs now have virtually no limitations, outside of financial constraints, to sign who they want. Meaning, whoever reaches the top does so by supreme merit. And even if what you said had some truth to it, this is still the Champions League. It's the pinnacle of the sport, just as the European Cup was, and the European Cup Winners' Cup never was. So Kvara being the best player of the Champions League or European Cup still far surpasses a player being the best player in the European Cup Winners Cup which was also always seen, from competitive terms, as a third-rate competition.
Believe me, I've heard that opinion many times and I understand the reasoning behind it, but I feel there's a less-than-ideal mix of ideas. I don't think it's bias or nostalgia (I try to be very methodical and I'm not very emotional), but rather that it's a better way of reasoning to compare different eras with very different contexts. Of course, the UCL is very different now than the European Cup (and the UEL is different from the UEFA Cup). The different formats mean that today the top European competition is more competitive and attracts more international exposure; therefore, the competitive level is higher, it's harder to win, and that a player's performance in it should be evaluated more highly. However, I think that's just one perspective. Imagine that it was Kvaratskhelia, not Kipiani, who emerged in the 70s (a respected league, more powerful than the Russian league where Khvicha played before arriving in Italy, but clearly one that didn't offer a more secure passage to the European Cup and opportunities to string together performances on the big stage due to much more direct knockout rounds). Don't you think that represents a greater difficulty in shining even while showing the same level? Didn't the European Cup format itself make the secondary tournaments much closer to each other in terms of competitiveness because they attracted the teams immediately above the top of the major leagues? (In fact, I think it's a good example to compare the competitive level between the European Cup and the UEFA Cup of 1988-89 and see how much of a gap there can be today between a UCL and a UEL). All of this is said excluding the complications of a local star emigrating to a major league (due to multiple restrictions, whether governmental, economic or the limited quota for foreigners), which, however, did not prevent one from shining and showing their worth in other international tournaments. Generally speaking, I think the way we relate great figures to major events works better now than before, and while that reasoning can be simplified, it's not entirely appropriate, even if it does increase subjectivity. On the other hand, I have a kind of "alternative test" that I try to apply whenever I do extensive exercises to avoid privileging one era over another based on very current ideas (which don't apply to all times). I group names based on generations or decades and count them. There doesn't need to be a perfect balance, but if there's a more or less noticeable one, I think it avoids that bias of thinking about greater competitiveness or greater difficulty as a general idea. It often happens to me; there's a balance in terms of names belonging to different eras under the previously described formulation. Of course, this is all a general idea, not just about the Kipiani vs. Kvaratskhelia case, and ignoring the fact that a figure in a smaller competition can be perceived as superior to another in a bigger one (an example: Ronaldo in the 1997-98 UEFA Cup over any UCL star of that year). It is also a rather subjective method (as you say), very personal, but one that I would consider more appropriate or what satisfies better to my reasoning.
It's a minor detail that I wanted to point out, because the utility squad player role of Park Ji-Sung makes his qualification via a specific fixed position quite limited. He was indeed very proficient at right-wing also, and his 2005 PSV performance alongside teammate Jefferson Jarfán, has an extra-special place in my heart, because it probably showcases the most injury-free, dynamic years of his entire European career. It is just that Park Ji-Sung probably does not have five years as a right-winger for both club and country, which would make him ineligible by the initial stated criteria. If you do not believe me, just watch this video with translated subtitles on. The details of my post was based on his own words, and what I remember watching. 박지성이 집 밖을 못 나간 이유...ㅣ파추호의 유니폼 EP34
I know you're revisiting things re: Anatoli Ilyin yourself Peru, but I had a quick attempt (double-checking that genuine translations were being given to me rather than creative license being used by Gemini) with AI and was told these things, citing Russian sources (I asked if descriptions and match reports from Russian pages could be interpreted for me): "Playstyle Description: He is described as a highly disciplined winger who possessed a rare combination of explosive acceleration down the left flank and the direct, cutting instinct of a central forward. This made him the league's top scorer twice (1954 and 1958), a massive feat for a wide player in that era" Ilyin Anatoly Mikhailovich. Russian national football team "Support Striker vs. Left Winger Classification To categorize his role properly, it helps to separate what he was called versus how he actually played: Official Classification: Left Winger (No. 11). In the rigid numbering system of the Soviet Top League and national team, he was universally registered on the team sheets as a left winger [biograph.ru]. Tactical Reality: An Inside Support Striker (from the left). He was very similar to Gigi Riva (Cagliari) or István Nyers (Inter Milan). Like them, Ilyin did not view his primary job as hugging the touchline to supply crosses. Instead, his priority was attacking the half-spaces and far post. Did he provide assists? Yes, heavily. While his goalscoring made the history books, Soviet reports note he was a highly unselfish player. He was part of an incredibly fluid Spartak frontline. Because he possessed explosive short-burst acceleration, he would frequently draw the opposing right-back out to the flank, bypass them with pace, and then play low, square cuts across the box for Simonyan or inside-left Sergei Salnikov [rusteam.su]. The Verdict on Position The absolute best way to classify Anatoli Ilyin to a modern or European audience is as a classic "Inside Forward" or an early prototype of the "Inverted Winger." If forced to stick to traditional positions, "Left Winger" is his correct designation [biograph.ru]. However, it must always be accompanied by the caveat that he played with the spatial freedom and clinical intent of a support striker—making Riva and Bastin the absolute best stylistic comparisons you could make." 1. The 1956 Olympic Final vs. Yugoslavia (Melbourne) [1, 2] The Match & Context: The USSR won 1–0, claiming the Olympic gold medal on 8 December 1956. [1, 2] Tactical Role in Reports: Archives note that Yugoslavia deployed a highly physical, tight-marking defense. The Soviet game plan relied heavily on overloading the right flank with winger Boris Tatushin and inside-right Anatoli Isaev. Ilyin’s specific role was to stretch the field, stay wide to drag the Yugoslav fullback out of position, and then blindside the defense by sprinting inward when the cross arrived from the opposite side. [1, 2, 3] The Blueprint Action: In the 48th minute, Tatushin crossed the ball from the right. Anatoli Isaev rose to head it toward the far corner. Soviet match reports vividly describe Ilyin's role here: he anticipated the flight, used his explosive acceleration from the left flank, and lunged forward to head the ball over the line on the far post. It remains the quintessential example of his "far-post poaching" instinct from a wide starting position. [1, 2] 2. The 1958 World Cup Playoff vs. England (Gothenburg) The Match & Context: After a draw in the group stages, a single-elimination tiebreaker was played to see who would advance to the final eight. The USSR won 1–0. [1, 2] Tactical Role in Reports: The English fullbacks were physically imposing and dominant in the air. To counter this, Soviet match reports describe how coach Kachalin instructed Ilyin to abandon traditional wing play entirely. Instead of fighting for high aerial balls on the flank, Ilyin was ordered to drop deeper into the left half-space to draw the English defenders forward, creating massive gaps behind them. [1] The Blueprint Action: In the 69th minute, a mistake in the English midfield allowed a quick transit. Instead of waiting on the touchline, Ilyin read the transition instantly and darted centrally between the English center-backs. He received the ball cleanly on the run and slotted a precise, low shot past goalkeeper Colin McDonald. Reports praised his tactical intelligence, highlighting how he transitioned flawlessly from a tactical decoy into a ruthless central finisher. [1] 3. The 1958 European Championship vs. Hungary (Moscow) The Match & Context: The first-ever match in the history of the European Championship (then the European Nations' Cup) on 28 September 1958. The USSR won 3–1. Tactical Role in Reports: Russian tactical analyses of this game focus heavily on high-pressing out of possession. While modern wingers are expected to press, this was a highly exhausting, forward-thinking demand in 1958. Ilyin was tasked with hunting down the legendary Hungarian wing-backs and forcing mistakes deep inside their own half. The Blueprint Action: In just the 4th minute of the game, Soviet inside-right Valentin Ivanov made a brilliant driving run down the opposite flank and sent a low, whistling cross into the box. Hungarian defender Ferenc Sipos intercepted the pass but hesitated for a fraction of a second. Ilyin, who had executed a heavy tracking run from his deep left position, completely pickpocketed the defender inside the penalty area and fired home. Reports from the match highlighted that the historic first Euro goal was a direct result of Ilyin's relentless defensive work rate and high-pressure positioning. [1, 2] 1. The 1953 Title Decider: Spartak Moscow vs. Dynamo Tbilisi (4–1) [1] The Context: A crucial match that effectively secured the 1953 Soviet Top League championship for Spartak over their nearest Georgian rivals. Tactical Role: In his memoirs, legendary teammate Nikita Simonyan recalls how this match showcased Ilyin’s role as the emotional and tactical "spark plugs" of the attack. Dynamo Tbilisi expected a tactical battle of central attrition, packing the middle of the pitch. [1, 2] The Breakdown: With the match heavily contested at 1–1, Ilyin turned the tide completely. He scored a lightning-quick equalizer to make it 2–2, dragging the defender out of position with a sudden inside run. Once he shifted the tactical momentum, he stopped hunting for goals himself and switched to a playmaker role, allowing Sergei Salnikov to head home the winner from a corner. Simonyan noted: "It was Anatoli's goal that was the turning point in that battle; it gave us our strength and confidence." [1, 2] 2. The 1958 "Double" Clincher: Soviet Cup Final vs. Torpedo Moscow (1–0) [1] The Context: Spartak had already won the 1958 league title (with Ilyin finishing as the league's top scorer with 19 goals). They were chasing a historic domestic "double" in the Cup Final against a fierce Torpedo Moscow team featuring the great Valentin Ivanov. [1, 2] Tactical Role: Torpedo deployed a heavy man-marking system designed to lock down Simonyan in the center. Coach Vasily Sokolov instructed Ilyin to operate as an asymmetrical winger. Instead of providing crosses from deep, he was tasked with making late, uncovered third-man runs directly into the penalty box. [1, 2] The Breakdown: The match dragged into a grueling extra time. True to his reputation as the "Master of the Historic Goal", Ilyin read a defensive lapse in the 98th minute. He timed his run perfectly from the left flank into a central pocket of space to fire home the only goal of the match. Archive reports from Fanat1k.ru heavily praise his stamina, noting that while central players collapsed from exhaustion, Ilyin's fitness allowed him to maintain explosive pace late into extra time. [1, 2, 3] 3. The "Impossible Angle" Trick: A Masterclass in Direct Wing Play [1] The Context: A famous piece of individual match footage routinely discussed by Spartak historians to outline his specific technical audacity on the flank. Tactical Role: Traditional wingers of the 1950s were rigidly bound to passing guidelines, but Ilyin was unique because he had the technical confidence to improvise and act like a central forward from wide positions. The Breakdown: Simonyan frequently recounted an anecdote where Ilyin was driving down the flank at a razor-sharp, nearly impossible acute angle to the goal. Simonyan sprinted to the near post, screaming for a standard square pass. Instead of crossing, Ilyin used a delicate, highly technical "scoop" or "chip" (черпак) to loft the ball over the goalkeeper and directly into the far side-netting. Simonyan joked afterward: "I told him if he hadn't scored that, he would have caught hell from me! But that was Ilyin—he never hoarded the ball, but when he saw an opening, his execution was lethal." [1, 2] I checked his PES stats page here too (but there are no real indications about how informed the person was who created it): Pes Miti del Calcio - View topic - Anatoli ILYIN 1955-1958 The two PES stats pages I found for Nyers do put striker as primary position (as opposed to wing forward for Ilyin), with wing forward secondary, but yeah I think support striker might fit better than striker given he was seemingly in essence left attacker rather than centre forward for Inter (potentially in gameplay he often came inside and left Skoglund to go around him on outside though, and maybe it seems clearer in his case than Ilyin's that he was primarily a scorer rather than creator): Pes Miti del Calcio - View topic - István NYERS 1948-1953 Habilidades István Nyers Hungarian historians did classify him as left winger though (8th out of 11 on the left winger list compiled by Hungarian federation in 2013...though for the 2010 Hungarian experts list we can't see what field position he would have been placed in, just that he was voted 46th overall): https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/n...stern-european-nations.2109938/#post-38676111
I realised that AI had made an error with the 1958 Russian Cup Final though, and it admitted so: "You are entirely right, and that is a major correction—Nikita Simonyan scored the winning goal in the 1958 Soviet Cup Final, not Anatoli Ilyin. [1, 2] Official match sheets and archival match film confirm that in the 98th minute of extra time, inside-right Anatoli Isaev delivered the decisive pass, and center-forward Nikita Simonyan cleanly swept the ball home to secure the 1–0 victory over Torpedo Moscow. [1, 2]" It has provided me with this Russian language page for a 1953 game though: Spartak (Moscow) — Dynamo (Tbilisi) 4:1 (3:1) | FC Dinamo Tbilisi. Team history ("This happened after Netto (No 6) brought the left wing Ilyin to the goal, and the latter, having taken possession of the ball in a struggle, unexpectedly managed to shoot on goal from a difficult position")
Everything is relative. If we consider "best of" videos to assess the hierarchy, than Cerezo's vs Rijkaard's makes the Brazilian look like Maradona in comparison. Regarding Kluivert, consider whatever period or his career, he was never even comparable to (one name out of hundreds of possible names) Beppe Signori.