CAMEROON - 8 HM BELL, Joseph-Antoine (GK) HM N'KONO, Thomas (GK) HM SONGO'O, Jacques (GK) HM LAUREN (RB) HM ANGUISSA, Frank (BB) HM ABEGA, Théophile (AM) HM MILLA, Roger (SS) T150 ETO'O, Samuel (ST) ECUADOR - 8 HM PACHO, Willian (CB) HM VALENCIA, Antonio (RB) HM CAICEDO, Moisés (DM) HM AGUINAGA, Álex (AM) HM BOLAÑOS, Jorge (AM) HM MÉNDEZ, Édison (AM) T150 SPENCER, Alberto (ST) HM VALENCIA, Enner (ST) SWITZERLAND - 8 HM SOMMER, Yann (GK) HM HENCHOZ, Stéphane (CB) HM SFORZA, Ciriaco (CM) HM XHAKA, Granit (CM) HM SHAQIRI, Xherdan (TQ) HM FATTON, Jacques (LW) HM HÜGI, Josef (SS) HM CHAPUISAT, Stéphane (ST) TURKEY - 8 HM ÇALHANOĞLU, Hakan (CM) HM ŞAHIN, Nuri (CM) HM BAŞTÜRK, Yıldıray (AM) HM TURAN, Arda (LW) HM KÜÇÜKANDONYADIS, Lefter (SS) HM NIHAT Kahveci (ST) HM OKTAY, Metin (ST) HM ŞÜKÜR, Hakan (ST) ALGERIA - 7 HM ZITOUNI, Mustapha (CB) HM BELLOUMI, Lakhdar (AM) HM DAHLEB, Mustapha (TQ) HM MEKHLOUFI, Rachid (TQ) T500 MAHREZ, Riyad (RW) HM MADJER, Rabah (SS) HM OUDJANI, Ahmed (ST) GREECE - 7 HM DELIKARIS, Georgios (AM) HM DOMAZOS, Mimis (AM) HM KOUDAS, Giorgos (AM) HM HATZIPANAGIS, Vasilis (TQ) HM MAVROS, Thomas (ST) HM PAPAIOANNOU, Mimis (ST) HM SIDERIS, Giorgos (ST) SLOVENIA - 7 T500 OBLAK, Jan (GK) HM HANDANOVIČ, Samir (GK) HM KATANEC, Srečko (DM) T450 OBLAK, Branko (BB) HM ILIČIĆ, Josip (TQ) HM ZAHOVIČ, Zlatko (TQ) HM POPIVODA, Danilo (RW) IVORY COAST - 6 HM TOURÉ, Kolo (CB) T300 TOURÉ, Yaya (BB) HM GERVINHO (LW) HM KALOU, Salomon (SS) T250 DROGBA, Didier (ST) HM POKOU, Laurent (ST) UNITED STATES - 6 HM FRIEDEL, Brad (GK) HM HOWARD, Tim (GK) HM REYNA, Claudio (CM) HM PULISIC, Christian (LW) HM DEMPSEY, Clint (SS) HM DONOVAN, Landon (SS) BOLIVIA - 5 HM MELGAR, Milton (CM) HM ETCHEVERRY, Marco (AM) HM ROMERO, Erwin (AM) HM SÁNCHEZ, Erwin (AM) HM UGARTE, Víctor Agustín (SS) MALI - 5 HM DIARRA, Mahamadou (DM) HM SISSOKO, Mohamed (DM) HM KEITA, Seydou (BB) T500 KEÏTA, Salif (SS) HM KANOUTÉ, Frédéric (SS) MOROCCO - 5 HM BOUNOU, Yassine (GK) HM NAYBET, Noureddine (CB) HM HAKIMI, Achraf (RB) HM ZIYECH, Hakim (RW) HM FARAS, Ahmed (SS) AUSTRALIA - 4 HM BRESCIANO, Mark (BB) HM KEWELL, Harry (LW) HM CAHILL, Tim (SS) HM VIDUKA, Mark (ST) COSTA RICA - 4 T500 NAVAS, Keylor (GK) HM MURILLO, Álvaro (TQ) HM RUIZ, Bryan (TQ) HM WANCHOPE, Paulo César (ST) SOUTH KOREA - 4 HM HONG Myung-bo (CB) HM PARK Ji-sung (RW) T500 SON Heung-min (LW) HM CHA Bum-kun (ST) DR CONGO - 3 HM BWANGA Tshimen (CB) HM BONGA BONGA, Paul (BB) HM NONDA, Shabani (ST) EGYPT - 3 HM ABOUTRIKA, Mohamed (AM) T150 SALAH, Mohamed (RW) HM EL KHATIB, Mahmoud (SS) HONDURAS - 3 HM YEARWOOD, Gilberto (DM) HM PALACIOS, Wilson (BB) HM SUAZO, David (ST) ICELAND - 3 HM SIGURVINSSON, Ásgeir (AM) HM SIGURÐSSON, Gylfi (TQ) HM GUÐJOHNSEN, Eiður (SS) MONTENEGRO - 3 T150 SAVIĆEVIĆ, Dejan (TQ) HM MIJATOVIĆ, Predrag (SS) HM VUČINIĆ, Mirko (SS) NIGERIA - 3 HM OKOCHA, Augustine (AM) HM FINIDI George (RW) HM OSIMHEN, Victor (ST) NORTH MACEDONIA - 3 HM NAJDOSKI, Ilija (CB) HM PANDEV, Goran (SS) T450 PANČEV, Darko (ST) SAUDI ARABIA - 3 HM AL-DEAYEA, Mohamed (GK) HM AL-THUNAYAN, Yousuf (TQ) HM ABDULLAH, Majed (ST) SOUTH AFRICA - 3 HM RADEBE, Lucas (CB) HM NTSOELENGOE, Patrick (TQ) HM McCARTHY, Benni (ST) ARMENIA - 2 HM MKHITARYAN, Henrikh (AM) HM SIMONYAN, Nikita (ST) BELARUS - 2 HM ALEINIKOV, Sergei (BB) HM HLEB, Aliaksandr (AM) FINLAND - 2 HM HYYPIÄ, Sami (CB) T350 LITMANEN, Jari (TQ) ISRAEL - 2 HM BENAYOUN, Yossi (TQ) HM SPIEGLER, Mordechai (SS) JAPAN - 2 HM KAGAWA, Shinji (AM) HM NAKAMURA, Shunsuke (AM) SENEGAL - 2 HM KOULIBALY, Kalidou (CB) T350 MANÉ, Sadio (LW) AZERBAIJAN - 1 HM BANISHEVSKIY, Anatoliy (ST) CANADA - 1 HM DAVIES, Alphonso (LB) EL SALVADOR - 1 HM GONZÁLEZ, Jorge (TQ) GABON - 1 HM AUBAMEYANG, Pierre-Emerick (ST) JAMAICA - 1 HM MORGAN, Wes (CB) KOSOVO - 1 HM JUSUFI, Fahrudin (RB) LIBERIA - 1 T250 WEAH, George (ST) NEW ZEALAND - 1 HM RUFER, Wynton (SS) PANAMA - 1 HM DELY VALDÉS, Julio César (ST) SAN MARINO - 1 HM BONINI, Massimo (DM) TOGO - 1 HM ADEBAYOR, Emmanuel (ST) TRINIDAD AND TOBAGO - 1 HM YORKE, Dwight (SS) TUNISIA - 1 HM DHIAB, Tarak (AM) VENEZUELA - 1 HM ARANGO, Juan (AM) ZAMBIA - 1 HM BWALYA, Kalusha (SS) ZIMBABWE - 1 HM GROBBELAAR, Bruce (GK)
I think it is difficult to pin-point Park Ji-Sung's best position, but in my opinion, the left-wing position may be the best fit, out of the available options: ~ 1999: Left full-back substitute option 2000~2001: Central midfielder/defensive midfielder 2002 ~ 2005: Right-wing 2006 ~ 2012: Left-wing option to help Manchester United transition Ryan Giggs into a more central position, and also to link-up with his national team partner Lee Young-Pyo 2012 ~ 2014: Transitional phase to more central midfield roles before retiring I personally think fully dedicated central positions, or fully dedicated defensive roles never brought out the best out of Park Ji-Sung, so it is either right or left-wing position that best defines him. Although Park Ji-Sung is quite two-footed, his tendency to help the middle, especially after his knee surgery in 2007, made him more of a natural fit as a left-sided wide midfielder that drifts inwards. When emphasizing the role of the winger, I do think he was at his best prior to his knee injuries when he was more often used on the right, but the evolution he subsequently had, where he was the left-sided midfielder who roamed inwards takes up such a large portion of his career that I think it might be more accurate to classify him as a left-winger. He was at his best when he fulfilled the roles of both the midfield and winger simultaneously, in my opinion, and he did that mostly on the left channels.
Nice work Peru - of course (especially among HMs perhaps) there can be some inclusions/exclusions I could call differently, but great to see such a wide selection, including names such as Abega, Chapuisat etc. I think Anatoliy Ilyin (and Istvan Nyers) could be better as LWs btw? List of the 33 best players of the season in the USSR - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I just realized a mistake. Among the Spanish players, for some reason, I forgot to include Estanislao Basora, one of the best right-wingers in Europe in the early 50s. I had to correct it. He belongs to my T300 group, so I made the following changes: T300 Basora x Scifo T350 Scifo x Ashley Cole T400 Ashley Cole x Šuker T450 Šuker x Benetti T500 Benetti x Amarildo HM Amarildo There are so many names that even though I tried not to make any mistakes, I found this one which I've already corrected in the original file.
I did wonder about that when I saw that Basora's name was missing, but maybe I had wondered if you even categorised him as a pre-1950 player (like Gren, or perhaps like Abe Lenstra for example I guessed too?), even though yeah considering his age and career trajectory surely he fits best from 1950 onwards anyway. It's hard with less footage available, but I guess he would be a candidate if a Spanish all-time line-up was picked with a right winger (last time I tried it I used a diamond instead with Busquets-Xavi-Iniesta-Suarez behind Butragueno and Raul, but surely using wingers is a good option too, given Gento being available). Perhaps the main alternative to Amancio (who yeah maybe would be more skilled and creative - as alluded to he was also very good as inside right at times as well as outside right....but Basora seems potentially a bit more direct/clinical as scorer or more an outright winger....?). I think it seems like, other than Kubala, he could have been number 1 attacking star in Barcelona's early 1950s team too, doesn't it? When making such long posts it's easy to overlook something accidentally (or like with Hidegkuti accidentally not include a name in a post even though he's been placed in a category), I know myself anyway. NOTE - I guess I alluded to myself thinking of Scifo higher rather than lower if anything already, so I guess it's understood my rep was for remembering Basora belatedly and correcting/clarifying rather than for replacing Scifo in top 300.
I must say that this is a factor I took into account, considering that it seems to me his performance began to decline after 27 (after winning the Pichichi Trophy in 1991), having established himself in the First Division at 21/22. His consistency/longevity may appear somewhat compromised in comparison. I'd leave that doubt open, I could understand Butragueño being ahead of him due to his prime (besides being more popular nowadays), but I'd choose Amancio as more decisive and consistent in general terms (but less remembered now).
Very interesting. As an aside (and using my system only for players while played for Real Madrid), I was recently discussing how to assemble the best XI in Real Madrid's history and I included Amancio as the right-winger. That sparked a lot of discussion in my groups, Amancio is really not very well-remembered. Something that seems odd is that Francisco Gento has the opposite case, much more widely known, but I left him out because of Cristiano Ronaldo, and I was pressured to move CR7 to the other side (perfectly possible) so as not to displace him, while Amancio was perceived as a weak/unknown piece. By the way, Puskás's case is impressive. He arrived at 31 or 32 years old after a very long prime in Hungary and very out of shape. He was adapted as a sort of striker (which wasn't his natural role), and even so, he certainly seems to be the best striker in the history of the most stellar club in history. It's incredible. My XI since the 50s: --------------------------------------------------- T. Courtois -------------------------------- J. Santamaría ------------- S. Ramos --- D. Carvajal ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ R. Carlos ----------------------------------------- Pirri ------------------- F. Redondo ------------------------------------------------- A. Di Stéfano -------- Amancio ---------------------------------------------------------------------- C. Ronaldo ---------------------------------------------------- F. Puskás Of course, among the biggest controversies was not including Modrić (or Kroos), but I think they would require a different type of system.
On the other hand, Amancio would also be part of my all-time Spain XI in a 4-3-3 formation. Suddenly, he's a real stellar in my eyes and the teams I'd have in mind. --------------------------------------------------- R. Zamora ------------------------------------- F. Hierro ----------------- S. Ramos --- D. Carvajal ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ J. Camacho -------------------------------------------------- S. Busquets ------------------------------------ Xavi ----------------------------- A. Iniesta -------- Amancio --------------------------------- Raúl ------------------------------------ F. Gento I think Amancio's versatility gives him an advantage. He wasn't a classic winger, but rather a forward positioned diagonally towards goal. Of course, it's remarkable, to me, that Spain has the peculiarity of putting into debate not including in its ideal XI who could be its best player in history: Luis Suárez. He could replace one of them, but I feel that the synergy between Barcelona trio in midfield is overwhelming.
It certainly seems to me that Quini has been almost completely forgotten in most discussions. Is there a particular reason for this? It's strange considering he was a "Pentapichichi".
I'm very surprised by the opinion about Rijkaard, especially because I have felt the opposite every time I have reviewed him more, particularly during his entire period before Milan, in the Netherlands with Ajax, unleashed as an all-round midfielder of great technique. While I'm not sure Kluivert is being properly assessed for his time with Milan more than for his early breakthrough with Ajax and his prime with Barcelona for 5 seasons.
I think you're right about Francis. He was very versatile, technically gifted, a great dribbler and could even be used as winger. I had my doubts before. I'll move him to support strikers. I know that Finney played more as a right-winger for Preston North End, while he shifted to the left wing with England to accommodate Matthews. As far as I know, there don't seem to be any major differences in their lateral positioning, but you're probably right about prioritizing their natural flank. I'll move him to right-wingers. I didn't quite understand you here, but I would comment that the cases of Benarrivo and Zambrotta are markable. First, I think they played at practically the same level on both sides, but both were naturally right-sided players, although both are remembered for important periods on the left side (like Benarrivo during most of the 1994 World Cup and Parma's best period during the late 90s, and like Zambrotta during the Euro 2004 + his usual position in Juventus' lineup in the mid 2000s, although he also has memorable moments as right-back in the World Cups). Perhaps it would be better to move Benarrivo to the left-backs.
Yeah, I suppose it becomes natural when picking some all-time selections (such as theoretical England XI, or perhaps best ever International wingers lists for example) to pick Finney for LW, but his most usual (and it seems on balance maybe best) role was RW. I couldn't have been sure from memory if Benarrivo wasn't left footed (but probably he wasn't), but yeah re: Zambrotta I think I think of that period as his peak (when normally left back) and maybe his characteristics suited that role well somehow (but yeah for 2006 World Cup Grosso was on that side and him at RB of course).
There is no doubt that Beckham's ideal position was right-sided midfielder, however, I don't have a specific role for his type of side-midfielder who isn't a natural winger, so I had to think about where to include him. I thought of him as a deep-lying playmaker because of his great deployment as a long and deep assistant, but he's a complicated hybrid to analyze. I might be undervaluing his side style.
Actually, I cut Lizarazu out at the end of the T500. I'd been thinking about it for a while; I'll include him instead of Paul Ince. I still think Cole was slightly better, but considering I dropped him one group because of Basora's omission, the gap is much smaller now. I think Bossis is better, do you agree?
I'm curious about the methodology used for the ranking system. With Georgia for example, you have Kipiani ranked above Kvaratshkelia but Kvara at 25 already has a career that far surpasses any player from his country and is widely already considered the best Georgian player of all time. I assume you factor in that Kvara's career isn't done yet but it would still strike me as odd as he could retire today and have a career that surpasses Kipiani's.
Two years ago, I posted this ideal Real Madrid XI on this very forum. https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/b...-real-madrid-cf.2001848/page-22#post-42356571 Everything is debatable, and perhaps Courtois, Kroos, and Benzema also deserve a place in Real Madrid's all-time XI.
That has to be one of the discussions I've participated in most often: Carvalho vs. Pepe. In my opinion, Carvalho wins the argument, but that might be because I favor his playing style, which is much more technical and demonstrates excellent tactical awareness, plus his consistency at Porto, Chelsea, Real Madrid and the Portuguese national team. Pepe's game, in contrast, is much more physical and aggressive. He undoubtedly reached his prime at an elite level, covering the aerial game exceptionally well and, I believe his reading of the ball and anticipation improved over the years, but I feel it's somewhat forgotten that for a long time his vehemence was a negative factor, at least for me.
His aggressive behavior earlier in his career no doubt cast a shadow on his standing but that's more of an incorrect posture to analyzing him, IMO, as it doesn't speak to his actual ability. With respect to his career he reached heights Carvalho never did. He has 3 European Championship Team of the Tournaments appearances, more than any player in history (a tied record with CR7, Maldini and Blanc), was the Man of the Match in Portugal's Euro 2016 final, won 3 Champions Leagues with Real Madrid, winning 2 of the 3 as a primary starter. He also was still a top-class centerback at the age of 41 for Porto and Portugal which is really only possible if you have a high, innate level of talent. That's a CV that surpasses Ricardo Carvalho, objectively.
That's very surprising to me. To be honest, I think Roberto Carlos is phenomenal in his role (I've never seen anyone like him, such a powerful attacking player). I've only heard negative reviews about his defensive level, but, without believing that he was that bad at defending, I think his attacking influence was so beastly that even if he wasn't balanced, he was a positive and superior factor to the vast majority of full-backs with great defensive disposition. Yes, he's an omission. I had listed him at some point, but I think I dropped him when I thought it would be a restrictive Top 250 and forgot to bring him up again. I'll add him. I would disagree there as a first impression, especially when compared to Bo Larsson. "Bosse" is widely considered one of the best Swedish players in history (at least in a second grade, only below to Gren, Nordahl, Liedholm, Hamrin, or Ibrahimović). I believe that in Sweden he is widely recognized as such and the best player in Malmö's history, apart from having shone in Germany with Stuttgart and often remembered as the most complete player in Swedish football. I remember Thern, especially with the Swedish national team in the early 90s (at the 1994 World Cup he didn't seem me to have a higher status than Dahlin or Kennet). I'd say he was more of a box-to-box midfielder with good ball control, although a bit slow. I'm not as familiar with his club career; what would you say were his best seasons? I think he had some consistency issues due to injuries, is that right?
From today's perspective, it's almost understandable that Enrique Castro "Quini" is becoming increasingly forgotten. Why? - He made his career at Sporting Gijón, a smaller team that didn't aspire to titles, although with Quini they were league runners-up. - Furthermore, during his early years at Sporting, he alternated between the first and second divisions, and this might explain why some people don't pay enough attention to the Asturian's career. - While it's true that he excelled at club level, he didn't shine particularly brightly with the national team for two reasons: • These weren't the best years for the Spanish national team. • His goalscoring record with the national team was far from what he achieved with his club. From my point of view, if we analyze Quini's career, it seems brilliant: - Pichichi trophies in the Second Division (2) with Sporting Gijón - Pichichi trophies in the First Division (5) with Sporting Gijón and FC Barcelona - Winning the Pichichi Trophy three times in the First Division without playing for a big club seems like an enormous achievement. Winning it twice with Barça seems more normal, but he did it after turning thirty and when his best years were behind him, which is also very remarkable. - Furthermore, at Barça he won five titles in the four seasons he was there, including the European Cup Winners' Cup, where Quini scored the winning goal (he also scored two goals in the final of the first Copa del Rey he won with FC Barcelona). If I compare Santillana to Quini, I think Quini is slightly superior, although I believe the general perception is the opposite. Why? - In favor of Quini: • 7 Pichichi trophies (5 in the first division and 2 in the second) compared to Santillana's 1 (second division). It's true that Santillana didn't take penalties, and if he had, he could have won a couple of Pichichi trophies in the first division, but that's the reality. • I think the previous point is enough to consider the Asturian player superior, since both players shared the same era and national team. - On the other hand, I think people value Santillana more because: • In terms of media exposure, playing for Real Madrid is not the same as playing for Sporting Gijón. In Spain, it probably didn't have as much of an impact, but in Europe during the 70s and 80s, it did. Santillana was the hero of impossible comebacks and the man with the most unbelievable headers ever seen. • For the same reason, the chances of winning titles with one team versus another are completely different. • Furthermore, Santillana was able to play in the 1984 European Championship final and the famous 12-1 victory for Spain against Malta, a media sensation for the Cantabrian striker. Quini, three years older, didn't get to experience these moments. It's curious, both were great strikers, but they didn't quite shine with the national team. Santillana always complained that he didn't get the necessary playing time, as he wasn't always a starter, or he was substituted, or he didn't even play at all. The same thing happened to Quini; he was capped 35 times but only played 13 full matches. For me, they were two of the best strikers in the history of Spanish football, but on points, I'd give the victory to Quini, even though my idol is Santillana.
I know that Paolo Rossi's case can be controversial. He's often even mentioned in conversations about the best Italian player of all-time, and yet I don't even place him among the top 46 Italians (and only from the 1950s onwards). To be honest, I think that although it's counterintuitive (even for me), it seems reasonable. His consistency doesn't just seem somewhat low to me, but very low at this level, and it's only sustained by his iconic moments in the 1978 and 1982 World Cups. Having barely established himself as a star in Serie A in the 1977-78 season with Vicenza, I couldn't say if he had any other truly great season (beyond some isolated performances in the European Cup with Juventus). I can't say for sure that I'm not being too harsh on him, but even his performances in the 1982 World Cup didn't impress me that much apart of the goals, although I understand how that etched his name in glory. I tried to make the comparison with Di Natale and it seems to me that without having reached such iconic moments, Di Natale was a superior striker in skills and with greater consistency. I cannot rule out being unfair.
I think that makes sense. Despite showing great potential from a young age, I believe that throughout his career he consistently fell short of expectations and only just surpassed them last season, when won the Ballon d'Or. As a general case and subjected to a historical chronology, I do believe he could be the weakest case to date (which could change if he maintains a great/good level in the following years, of course). On the other hand, I don't usually take the Ballon d'Or so seriously as a measuring stick. I wouldn't say he was the best player last season, although he was certainly one of the best.
I strongly agree that his main role was as a winger, perhaps a rare type of self-sacrificing winger. What I can't identify is a preferred side; I remember it being practically the same on either side. I assume you're South Korean; you probably have a better eye for his development. I'll move him to the left-wingers (I decided to put him among the right-wingers only after remembering him playing on that side with PSV in his early days when there was doubt (when he shared the team with my compatriot, Farfán)).
I think Ilyin was a case like Finney's, playing one position for the national team but another at club level. I understand he almost always played as a centre-forward for Spartak Moscow, despite moving to left wing for the Soviet Union to accommodate Nikita Simonyan at late 50s (operating as wing-forward to cutting inside). Meanwhile, although Nyers also played as a left-winger, I think he is best remembered for his prime with Inter as a very mobile centre forward (at least during the campaigns between 1948-49 and 1953-54 with Skoglund occupying the usual role as left-winger).
I would pick Bossis ahead of Lizarazu because he had superior skills with the ball in his feet, which allowed him to play in various positions with equal ease: LB, CB/libero, and even RB (WC82 1/2 final). You could have picked him in your CB/sweeper list as well, just as you could have picked Battiston on your LB list (instead of your CB list).