Top 250 Footballers (1950- )

Marius Trésor is extremely low.

 

Belated apologies here @TerjeC mate - I didn't read closely enough and you had said you were placing players in the decade they started their careers, not in the decades you were mostly associating them with (and potentially you were judging some players moreso on subsequent decades overall indeed, and the overlapping point of mine was moot anyway).

@Perú FC nice updates. We will all have some deviations and different opinions (and we all have to to a good extent rely on 3rd party sources/opinions etc for any attempt at something like this). I guess one thing I would be in theory challenging could be (especially considering like you said the more attacking players are often the ones separated from others more easily - more complex abilities was the way you put it) having a Romeo Benetti (maybe it seems after my recent post to Pep Pep re: comparison to Lodetti that I am on a wave of any-Benetti posting, but it's not really intended and though I would be strongly against such 'tackles' as the one below I know it can sometimes be that players with a history of those over-aggressions can also be good guys still: Graeme Souness might come to mind, albeit from what I know of them both and also from the league-based media ratings I tend to think Souness may have been a bit higher calibre on the ball than Benetti - I didn't like some of Michael Essien's over-the-top challenges either I remember, but firstly he was playing in a charity match for a good cause only last night and secondly I wouldn't completely dismiss the side of his game that was 'legitimate' in terms of the power shooting, ball carrying, fair tackles etc) inside top 500 but not a John Robertson (I know the issues re: Robertson would be longevity based, especially given the method even if I do see Pedri is already included now too, as well as continental recognition based regarding Ballon d'Or votes). Using DBS Calcio's Z-score ratings (dervied from Italian ratings for Serie A and Match magazine ratings in Robertson's era for 1st Division) Robertson has one season (1982/83) around the same level as Benetti's best few (even if I suspect I may not have rated Benetti so highly in various games myself - see linked post re: Italy vs Argentina 1978 as a random although limited guide to that maybe), but that's without 1977/78, 1978/79, 1979/80, and also without considering impact in the European Cup:
Profilo Giocatore Z-Score | DBScalcio.it
Profilo Giocatore Z-Score | DBScalcio.it
Match Magazine didn't exist for 1977/78 and 1978/79 but The People did ratings for the 1st Division....(they can't be put on DBS Calcio though because we can't see them for all of the games)

https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/p...ivision-ratings.2037606/page-23#post-41192051
https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/p...ivision-ratings.2037606/page-23#post-41192057

Ossie Ardiles view:
https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/interesting-best-xi.325564/page-69#post-42544269
Hans van Breukelen's XI in 1983 (a team-mate though of course):
https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/p...ivision-ratings.2037606/page-43#post-42665501
"Shilton; Anderson, Todd, Butcher, Sansom; Coppell, Robson, Keegan, Robertson; Chamberlain, Mariner"
John Robertson Masterclass vs 1. FC Köln (1979/80) Nottingham Forest Greatest
John Robertson vs East Germany (1982)
BAD INJURY! Romeo Benetti (Ac Milan) killer tackle on knee of Liguori (Bologna) - 11 Jan 1971 - YouTube
https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/the-best-players-of-the-1978-world-cup.2109830/#post-38661946

So I guess I question (even though they are in different roles, and Benetti had a more extensive top-level career) whether you would really feel sure that Benetti belongs in the 500 and Robertson doesn't?

 

Probably it's worth mentioning FA Cup and League Cup too. He had some significant/impressive assists (among around/approaching 20 for the season overall) in the 1977/78 League Cup vs top tier teams in early rounds for example (some are shown on the I Believe In Miracles film btw):
https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/g...he-best-players.2112404/page-62#post-40855142
He also had significant and quality FA Cup goals, such as vs Man City in 1977/78 and Leeds in 1979/80.
Some more games where he was impressive and/or key in European competition for example:



But anyway @Perú FC I hope I don't seem like I'm trying to control/over-influence your lists (which are yours not mine of course!) - just in a longer and more detailed way I'm making a case for a player like babaorum did for Tresor maybe (while directly comparing to Benetti, who for what it's worth Titanlux didn't have featuring more prominently in his wide lists of 1970s top players by season, in comparison to Robertson either, but I know there would be some opinions pointing in the other direction such as PlanetWorldCup's Italy squad/line-ups having Benetti in the All-Time Italy selections - if I can disagree with Savicevic not being in for Yugoslavia I can also disagree with Benetti being in for Italy though of course, even if the people involved there will surely have witnessed Benetti more than I have....).

 

Just as last 'attempts' on Robertson vs Bonetti anyway:
1979 Semifinali andata: Nottingham Forest-Colonia 3-3 - Game of Goals
THE BEST ROBERTSON 8: Picasso takes up the brush: he repeatedly tries one-on-one, with his cadenced and almost lopsided gait, and finds an uncomfortable customer like the German winger Konepka, but in the long run he takes measures, jumps him dry on at least five or six occasions, brushes a dozen poisonous crosses from which Nottingham's first two goals spring and then brings his team to 3-2 with an unlikely and beautiful header. Wonderful player, a Brazilian born by chance in Scotland.
(Already posted the video recently made of course)
Football Ratings: Italy ratings in the 1978 World Cup
Ratings: Corriere della Sera - El Gráfico.

6,92 Marco Tardelli
6,43 Gaetano Scirea
6,29 Franco Causio
6,21 Paolo Rossi, Antonio Cabrini
6,07 Claudio Gentile
6,00 Dino Zoff, Antonello Cuccureddu
5,93 Roberto Bettega
5,80 Renato Zaccarelli
5,38 Mauro Bellugi
5,30 Giancarlo Antognoni
5,25 Romeo Benetti
5,00 Francesco Graziani
(Maybe other sources can vary somewhat significantly, and I already knew for that Italy vs Argentina game El Grafico, like myself, rated him lower than some others; I didn't rate Antognoni so low and generally in the World Cup 78 games saw some good passes by him at least and he's only on 5.30 here himself, although it's not recognised as a high point of his career at least anyway and his fitness wasn't 100% I think - btw maybe 5.50 would be more like 'average' here given that EL Grafico is one of 2 sources and used a system where 5 seemed the average albeit they would quite often give very high as well as low grades)

 

Barthez, if only for his career with the national team and his record in the World Cup, deserves to be included.
I would say that the goalkeeper with the best record in the World Cup, tied with Peter Shilton (10 clean sheets in 17 matches), and also the goalkeeper who has conceded the fewest goals in a World Cup edition (tied with Buffon and Casillas), cannot reasonably be ignored.
I would say that the goalkeeper with the best World Cup record, tied with Peter Shilton (10 clean sheets in 17 matches), and also the goalkeeper who has conceded the fewest goals in a single World Cup tournament (tied with Buffon and Casillas), cannot reasonably be ignored.
If we look at his entire international career, the number of goalkeepers who combine both a goals-against ratio and a clean sheet percentage close to Barthez's can be counted on one hand. If we also include those who have a World Cup (and European Championship) title in a career of at least 80 caps:
we find only Fabien Barthez, Iker Casillas, and Dino Zoff. No other modern goalkeeper has managed to maintain such an unbeaten record over so many matches at the highest level.

To put it simply, there cannot be such a big gap between Casillas, Zoff (and also Buffon, Shilton etc) and Barthez.

 

Hello @babaorum ,
I don't even put a rep, excuse me, since I am so ashamed of this situation... regarding how Barthez is treated in such rankings... in general ofc, not especially here (btw thanks to @Glavisted oops, @Perú FC for sharing).

Meanwhile some goalkeepers who had blunders too (go figure...) are always-automatically considered to make the top-5 ever... (I guess I have Schmeichel in mind)...
Good keeper though, the one I wrote the name in small font... true legend... but... well.

For sure, if there's a position that is hard to separate in tiers, it is well the goalkeepers anyway.
I can understand that Barthez is difficult to rank... but so are many others.
Once we picked the top-3...
... who are maybe the less "crazy-crazy" btw...
... although it's common to say that all the keepers are a bit "crazy"...

well...
... good night.
... Fabien Barthez ...
...Don't forget this name...
... this talent...
... this winner of great games.
Everybody please...
Thank you.

He was excellent with the feet, too.

Had one assist at the World Cup, against Saudi Arabia.

 

Otherwise, something caught my attention : Amancio (top 200) and Butragueño (top 250). Maybe I never went through the right vidz for Amancio though.

I rembember that I have Butragueño in my top-125 (from 2017). And have Amancio in some HM list (which was not over-thought,... I'd keep Amancio into that, still, for sure). Mentionned him twice along the top-125 too, I can see now, too.

I think that Butrague►4 (argh) was better. Although it's two different eras.

What made you rank them in this order, @Perú FC ?

I have never searched much about Amancio tbh, not in detail (yes, not a fan, a priori).

 

Barthez wasn't even that prone to blunders. He was a reliable goalkeeper, despite his risky style of play. His misfortune was that he completely botched his second season at Manchester United (and his career declined afterward), and people have completely forgotten what he accomplished before that.
Nevertheless, in terms of trophies and statistics, he remains one of the top 3-5 goalkeepers in the history of national teams. And his club career certainly holds its own against at least half of those ranked ahead of him. To this day, he remains one of only three goalkeepers to have won the World Cup, European Championship, and Champions League treble (the other two being Sepp Maier and Iker Casillas).

 

For how long would you say Fabien Barthez was one of the top three or four goalkeepers in the world? I am not sure if his career longevity holds up in a position that has some pretty insane cases of elite longevity.

Wouldn't it be fair to say that a smaller, reflex-based keeper tends to age badly, and it happened quite early onto the career of Fabien Barthez? Larger frame goal-keepers tend to age better, although I'm not sure how much long-term viability as a world-class player is being factored in this list.

 

1997-2001 I'd say.

Not meaning he was crap before (he was great in the 1993 Marseille european campaign) and after btw: in the GK IFFHS rankings he still ranked 8th in 2002, 9th in 2003 and 10th in 2006.

Looking at the overall IFFSH rankings from 1987 to 2023, he ranks 15th among all the GK, which shows a certain level of consistency.

Among those who won the 'GK of the year award', he would be the only one with Emiliano Martinez and Donnarumma not to be included in Peru's list. That's farcical.

 

I just don't remember his name propping-up as one of clear candidates for the title of the best goalkeepers in the world for a prolonged period of time. So he is for me not the level of goalkeeper that has to be in no matter what, and maybe if one was to select a harsh standard against lack of prolonged longevity, maybe he can be excluded. I don't mind someone like Alisson being rated above him, personally speaking.

Also, I think you're being generous with how long he was at the very top. I personally thought the title of the best goalkeeper in the world went from Peter Schmeichel to Oliver Kahn, with Fabien Barthez as one of the honourable mentions for a narrower window of time. Even for the year he won best the title of the best goal-keeper in 2000, I thought Francesco Toldo was viscerally-speaking much more impressive during Euro 2000. So it was not like the heights he did reach for the short time-frames was untouchable for me.

I do think his time at Manchester United, maybe the most popular club in the world at the time, negatively influenced the perception of his overall career (maybe like Juan Sebastian Veron), but until there are cases of goalkeepers with even less longevity with placed substantially higher on the list (I don't know enough to know if this is the case), I think this particular list may be a case of signficant weighting against aspects Fabien Barthez lacked as a player. I think you might agree that he is not the type to have the least amount of angles of attack, when judging from a harsh angle.

 

I'm placing his peak in 1996/97 when Monaco won the French league title and he definitively took over from Bernard Lama in goal for the French national team (during the Tournoi de France). I'm extending it to 2001, when he was named to the Premier League Team of the Year. I think that during this period, he was as good as anyone -especially between 1998 and 2001- which doesn't mean he dominated his position, but no one truly did at that time, as a group of four or five goalkeepers were of a relatively similar level.

I believe his weaknesses or angles of attack are largely compensated for by his strengths and achievements, to begin with his pretty unique record with NT.

I'm not saying he should be at the top of the list -far from it- but he should appear somewhere for sure. Especially when i see someone like Pagliuca in it.

 

I didn't know what makes Gianluca Pagliuca stand-out above Fabien Barthez, so I searched around:

Samir Handanovic has now saved more penalties (25) than any other goalkeeper in the history of Serie A, breaking the previous record belonging to Gianluca Pagliuca (24) : r/soccer

Then again, the list of players with the most penalties saved for the major leagues does not seem to be particularly impressive, so maybe it is more of a trivia than a marker for all-around excellence:

La Liga: Diego Alves (22/45) 48.9%
EPL: David James (12/63) 19.0%
Bundesliga: Rudi Kargus (23/76) 30.3%

I did think Italians back then had amazing defenders and goalkeepers in general, so maybe being a respected figure within that space carried the narrative around his career further than his overall ability, but I really wouldn't know. I just thought if a player like Alisson (who I admire very much) is rated relatively modestly, maybe it isn't a stretch to leave out Fabien Barthez depending on the methodology.

Fabien Barthez, for me, does have noticeable weaknesses both as a player, and how his career turned out as a result. The English media meltdown over his mistakes may have been overblown beyond what is necessary, but the dip in form was extremely noticeable, and the heights he did reach was not stellar enough for me to have him as a top 50 goalkeeper of all-time no matter what the criteria used.

 

Barthez has a major dip in form in 2003, which coincided with a kind of depression. He came back at a very good level in 2004 with Marseille, then he was suspended for 6 months in 2005, and came back again at a good level in 2006.

I think the last 10-15 names of Peru's list are debattable to be honest (to the noticeable exception of Ivo Viktor, who I think should be much higher), each of them potentially being moved off the list to benefit some names on the supplementary list, including Barthez and Van Breukelen.

 

For sure he would have my sympathies for any depression issues (I mentioned occasionally before but I have had/have anxiety related issues myself, albeit maybe a more similar example if any in football would be young midfielder Michael Johnson at Man City, who left the sport totally of course). Barthez did seem to be a likeable person, and endearing goalkeeper with his style (maybe similar to Jorge Campos he can be slightly under-rated due to some apparent eccentricity that actually gets over-stated - sometimes they could also be making 'sensible/clever' choices in some actions).

I suppose on the flip side I would have to admit that based on previous estimations if Peru FC does under-rate Barthez maybe I do too (I feel like goalkeeping would be far from an area of expertise for me anyway, though actually I kind of feel the other French GK Bats can be a contender moreso than he sometimes is placed as himself, albeit also not with huge longevity as a NT star - in some older 'All-Time World Cup' exercises he was featuring btw - David Brooks selecting him as French number 1 in his book, with Barthez and Lama as back-up, while the exercise on PlanetWorldCup, in the same year (and perhaps there was collaboration a little, or discussion because Brooks mentions one of the main guys who made the PlanetWorldCup website as a reference/consultant actually) had Barthez as 1st choice, old-timer Thepot deputising, though given the number 1 jersey [I'm not clued up enough for example on how Thepot and Darui were compared during the early days though myself tbh] and Bats as 3rd choice in the squad). I hope I didn't 'kick-start' too much criticism of @Perú FC (with my Robertson/Benetti comments/questions - maybe rather than feel 'strongly' I kind of feel 'clearly' that there could be a case there but when any of us would do an exercise there will always be points some people will look at and think we got it wrong, while other people will think so about some different points - overall Peru has done a great job I'm sure, but I guess it's also a balance - he probably doesn't want every post to be 'nice one Peru mate' with no opinions or ideas expressed anyway....but yeah maybe we should all make sure to give him overall credit and not be too harsh with views at least....).

I suppose one point regarding what you said is that Barthez did play behind the Thuram-Blanc-Desailly-Lizarazu defence, and it can be hard to attribute recognition for defensive records among the players (but with the same logic it can be hard with Xavi/Iniesta, Busquets/Puyol/Pique etc too, and at club level Messi and suchlike also of course - 'team success' isn't something that catapults players above others alone I suppose). It could be though that his role and contributiions towards the clean sheets get a little overlooked because of those other players being in front of him I suppose though....?

EDIT - I meant to put in this page I noticed:
'We're all broken' – Ex-MU star wakes up in pain every day with side effects| All Football
Former Manchester United goalkeeper Fabien Barthez has shed some light on his post-playing career injury woes, admitting he is "broken". The French shot-stopper caught the eye of Sir Alex Ferguson with his Euro 2000 performance, and was brought in from Monaco for a hefty £7.8million in an attempt to fill the gloves of the departed Peter Schmeichel.

A stellar start earned Barthez plaudits at Old Trafford. He secured a Premier League title in his debut season and swiftly caught the affection of fans for his eccentric and risky style. However, despite his brilliance, things didn't go smoothly for too long.

Though he won another top-flight crown in 2003, Barthez was dropped towards the end of that campaign in favour of Roy Carroll after a string of poor performances, and Tim Howard was brought in to take his place in the long term, with Ferguson's faith in him lost.

After being told United would release him, he left for Marseille on an initial loan deal halfway through the following season and played out the rest of his days on the pitch in France for Les Olympiens and Nantes.

Barthez would retire in 2006 at the age of 36, having won a World Cup and Champions League to go with his Euros title and Red Devils silverware, although such a successful and lengthy career didn't come without its share of bumps and bruises.

Now, the Frenchman has decided to illuminate the gruelling injury-related ordeals he and many of his fellow pros endured during their playing days, even stating that there were many occasions he wrongly played through injury.

Speaking to L'Equipe, the former Red Devils goalkeeper came clean about his injury troubles, admitting: "When I get up, I feel like an old man.

"When you've been diving all day in every direction from age 15 to 36, you shouldn't be surprised. But hey, I'm not the only one. We are all broken."



Barthez, now aged 53, went on to single out some of the occasions when injuries got the better of him and he perhaps should not have carried on playing while stricken. In doing so, he is now suffering the side effects each and every day.

"In my time, we weren't protected," he added. "There were times I played when I really shouldn't have. In Monaco, I fractured my cheekbone.

"I was supposed to play again three weeks later, but they put me back on the field immediately with a protective shell. Now I suffer the consequences, but without regrets.

"On one occasion, during a match, I suffered a very strong blow. At half-time, my thigh had doubled its size. The doctor told me to stop, but I said I felt fine.

"As a result, I spent the night in the emergency room; they split my thigh in two, and I was off for two months," he concluded. "I am the one to blame."

 

Naturally, Barthez benefited from an iron defense in the French national team. But this has been the case for other great goalkeepers (Zoff, Casillas, Buffon, etc.) without it being used as an argument against them or as a factor to qualify their performances.
Barthez played against less impenetrable defenses (Monaco, Marseille 2004, etc.) and still shone. Paradoxically, the period when he was at his strongest for the French national team, statistically speaking (7 goals conceded in 19 matches and a record of 8 consecutive clean sheets in 2003-2004), was under Jacques Santini, at a time when the French defense was much weaker, and when Barthez himself was supposed to have started to decline (which puts his decline into perspective).
Above all, he had this ability to raise his level as the stakes increased, proving indispensable to the team. I would say that Marseille wouldn't have won the Champions League in 1993 without him in goal in the final (he frustrated the Milan attackers, Van Basten first and foremost), that he was imperious at the 1998 World Cup, and even more so at the 2000 European Championship (his matches against the Czech Republic, Portugal, and Italy). Without him, France wouldn't have won the final: it was his save against Del Piero in the 84th minute, then his cross to Trezeguet's head (who headed it back to Wiltord) that won the match. Finally, in 2004, Marseille wouldn't have reached the UEFA Cup final without his performances against Liverpool and Newcastle (he was then stupidly sent off in the final). In 2006, Coupet was better than him. Under pressure from Zidane and Thuram, Domenech ultimately chose Barthez as his starting goalkeeper: both knew Barthez was the best under pressure. His World Cup was indeed a success.

Moreover, Barthez played six periods of extra time with the French national team and didn't lose a single one. Even better: he didn't concede a single goal. I can't see that as a coincidence.

Finally, there's the technical aspect: Barthez was good on his line and in the air (without being the best in either area), but he excelled in one-on-one situations (I see few goalkeepers at his level) and, above all, he's one of the best goalkeeper-passers in history, whether with his hands or feet. Many of his clearances turned into assists (to Henry vs Saudia Arabia in WC 98) or pre-assists (the best example being the one against Italy in 2000, already mentioned).

All this to say that Barthez is ultimately quite unique. A strange creature wearing a goalkeeper's jersey. But he's no ordinary like Emiliano Martinez, and more than just an excellent goalkeeper like Pagliuca.

Once again, the IFFHS has ranked the best goalkeepers from 1987 to 2023, based on points awarded each year. Barthez finished 15th. That seems perfectly fair to me.
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meilleur_gardien_de_football_de_l'année_(IFFHS)

 

Bats was good. His match against Brazi in 1986 was perhaps one of the best a goalkeeper has ever played. But his peak was short.

There's also Lloris. His record at club level is non-existent, and his record with the French national team is excellent, but behind that of Barthez.

 

I remember feeling Lloris seemed promising early on, but yeah goalkeepers need to confirm themselves (without too many lapses/mistakes) over a period of time I suppose.

Nice link re: the rsssf voting - it seems a speciality of their's with lots of names considered/recognised each year (by their panel of voters collectively): I kind of wondered whether Zenga's exposure/status in Serie A might give him an advantage when he won for example, but clearly they were trying to consider a wide range of options at least. They persisted longer with their goalkeeper awards than with their best player awards after the introduction of the FIFA Player of the Year award I suppose (without a specific version for goalkeepers). @Titanlux showed me (IIRC) that the 1993 goalkeeper voting by IFFHS was for 92/93 season I think (correct me if I'm wrong Titanlux!) so maybe it was always season-based rather than calendar year even....

 

@Perú FC

Sorry if I came across as vehement. I wouldn't have been able to make such a comprehensive list. Well done on that. We all have our criteria and biases. That's what makes it so much fun.

 

Sure, thanks. Yeah, I suppose a more natural comparison would be McGovern and/or Gemmill to Benetti (like it could be Carrick and/or Scholes to Essien perhaps - different qualities/style but all central midfielders). I guess I would see the Robertson vs Benetti one more akin to a Pires/Ribery (though despite being a Forest fan I think I still would rate Pires a bit higher than Robertson, even if 'Robbo' was more significant in EC/CL play in the latter stages - somewhat equalised by Pires' Euro 2000 Final assist for France perhaps though anyway) or even in a way maybe a Neymar, vs a Daniele De Rossi or Dunga maybe foe examples (the two French wingers not having exceptional longevity, but feasibly being clearly better players at peak overall if trying to compare among players of different roles, and being among the top stars of their successful club teams in their peaks). I suppose I would struggle with the idea that Benetti was 'better' than any player who ever played for Forest (from what I've seen I would tend to think other midfielders Webb, young Roy Keane, Bohinen were all better too at peak form, maybe even Elliott Anderson now.... - and none of them are regarded as challenging Robertson as Forest's best ever player). Anyway, yeah, I said enough now I'm sure on that one - it probably is true that I don't appreciate physical/aggressive midfielders as much as some others do, and I guess it's feasible the more I saw of Benetti the more performances I thought had merit as good games by him would be witnessed.

For the DBS Calcio question vyncy himself explains it here (basically it is a new system designed to take account of ratings variance - for example I think for 2009/10 a set of ratings, perhaps from SkySports although I'm not sure, were used for the Premier League that resulted in big variance between the highest and lowest ratings - previously the top-rated players very high averages were not dragged down because of the very low ones but now the overall ratings are squeezed inwards from both ends in effect, to make a more standard/normal distribution or one more in line with a typical Italian-based system in terms of variance):
https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/dbscalcio-it-news.2138600/
I think comparing ratings for championships many years apart and/or in different leagues is still not feasible in a totally reliable way (probably Messi in MLS is not putting in his peak career performances quality/effectiveness wise individually for example) but what is now accounted for (which in theory makes comparisons between top leagues more realistic at least) is ratings methodology (not just how high or low they rate players on average but how much variance they use between high and low ratings - for example El Grafico used a lot and Corriere dello Sport would use much less with fewer very high ratings and fewer very low ones too).

Enjoy your time with your kids then mate, and I hope the hyperactivity calms down slightly for you!