Tokyo 2020 Olympic Referees & Discussion [R]

Discussion in 'Referee' started by MassachusettsRef, Apr 22, 2021.

  1. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The wave-off mechanic is still expected in an MLS match to my knowledge, and it was something they started doing after the initial implementation of video review which means someone somewhere decided it was ambiguous and it needed to be clear that there was a change and not an additional sanction.
     
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  2. Mikael_Referee

    Jun 16, 2019
    England
    Some clips from the crazy China vs. Zambia game in the women's competition, reffed by Melissa Borjas [VAR: Paweł Raczkowski].

    17' - Missed offside by AR Shirley Perello corrected by VAR; goal to China disallowed
    https://streamable.com/6emldm

    41' - Penalty given to Zambia (challenge)
    https://streamable.com/6lxp1r

    52' - Penalty given to China (challenge) revoked after OFR
    https://streamable.com/n2ez0a

    81' - Penalty given to China (handling) + YC (SPA) after OFR
    https://streamable.com/shsnpo

    86' - Red card to China no.4 (DOGSO - holding)
    https://streamable.com/k7xy48
     
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  3. allan_park

    allan_park Member

    May 15, 2000
    Sorry, but as much as that may makes sense to some, as a top-level Referee he can't be thinking that way.

    FIFA assessment guidelines, like UEFA and all the other National Associations I have seen (and the last time I saw this it included MLS/PRO - MassRef???) are very clear that an error by the Referee on a KMI is still regarded as an error if it is subsequently "fixed" by VAR.

    So, in Assessor/Observer speak, if the Referee fails to send off a player, the score he is given "can be no higher than a 7.9" (failure), even if it is corrected by VAR.
     
  4. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It legitimately took me five or six watches to even find the offense.
     
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  5. Mikael_Referee

    Jun 16, 2019
    England
    Same in UEFA. You can even have 7,9s and correctly supported by the VMOs decisions there...
     
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  6. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Agreed. This is why I think Elfath simply had doubt over the decision. I also wonder what the comms were between Parker and Elfath on all that. Who gave the foul and who gave the misconduct? And was there any disagreement on either point?
     
  7. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Just night and day stuff from a men's game, huh?

    81' actually works better than it likely would in a men's game, because the protests during the run of play and the crowding of the referee at the stoppage would be unseemly. But still weird not to have any appeals at all for that handball and then to have essentially a match-deciding call come out of nothing.

    52' is just bizarre. Again, not trying to indirectly encourage dissent, but the dispassionate nature of everything is so strange. It makes it feel like the referee is more of a technical administrator than a match manager. It's something I've always believed, but watching some of the VAR-related clips on top men's games versus women's game just reinforces to me some of the disparate interpersonal and managerial skills that are actually needed to succeed in each setting.

    Thoughts here from anyone? I know this might open a can of worms with some, but I think that gets overturned by an OFR in both MLS and the EPL.
     
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  8. davidjd

    davidjd Member

    Derby Rams; SJ Earthquakes
    Jun 30, 2000
    Wilmington, NC (strong California ties)
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Was there an offense? Surely not clear enough to overturn. Probably if you're looking at the feet on the ground, but you have a knee and shoulder for the defender as well. Same discussion we've all had 100 times, but I think this is too close for VAR to overturn.

    I initially was wondering if it was on the shot as the other attacker could have been blocking the keeper's view and was close to being off as well. On further review though I don't know that she was blocking the view nor offside.
     
  9. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It's a FIFA event, so they are using lines--just not shown in this clip.

    So it was definitely offside. I can't perfectly isolate the kickpoint, but I actually think it's nowhere near as close as some of the hated "2 milimeter" offside decisions we've seen in some competitions. The player in an OSP's heel and hip are probably quite clearly cloesr to the penalty area than any relevant part of the 2LD.

    Whether you and others think that's too close, on principle, to overturn is a valid question regarding the philosophy of VAR. But from a practical standpoint I suspect this was a somewhat easy and clear-cut decision.
     
  10. davidjd

    davidjd Member

    Derby Rams; SJ Earthquakes
    Jun 30, 2000
    Wilmington, NC (strong California ties)
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Fair enough. And, yes, the use of a line I think is excessive even though I think we should use technology in most cases. I may come around or I may grow old(er) pining for the good old days.
     
  11. Mikael_Referee

    Jun 16, 2019
    England
    The last minute penalty in the Aston Villa vs. Brighton game given by Michael Oliver overturned after OFR was basically the same situation as this, IIRC.

    So I think your theory is correct. :)
     
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  12. threeputzzz

    threeputzzz Member+

    May 27, 2009
    Minnesota
    I'm mildly surprised this wasn't overturned.
     
  13. Mikael_Referee

    Jun 16, 2019
    England
    It seems that FIFA were wholly satisfied... Elfath gets marquee Spain vs. Argentina next.
     
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  14. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    We've been erratic here announcing assignments, but below are the men's appointments for the final group stage matchday:

    Spain : Argentina - ELFATH (USA) [Penso]
    Australia : Egypt - SOARES DIAS (POR)
    South Africa : Mexico - CONGER (NZL)
    France : Japan - BARTON (SLV)
    Saudi Arabia : Brazil - TESSEMA (ETH)
    Germany : Cote 'Ivoire - GONZALEZ (URU)
    Romania : New Zealand - ORTEGA (PER)
    Korea Republic : Honduras - KABAKOV (BUL)

    In theory, every match is consequential (though the Brazil one is truly only in theory, I would argue). But the Germany and Spain matches really stick out as high-pressure situations with big-named teams (sorry Group B, though that doesn't make those matches less tough!).

    Anyway, big match for Elfath & co. It looks like confederational neutrality is being maintained on the men's side so far, so options are somewhat limited but still a huge assignment--maybe the biggest of the first round.

    There are 14 referees there for the men's competition and 24 group stage matches. So four referees only got one match so far. They are:

    BEATH (AUS)
    GRINFELD (ISR)
    MAKHADMEH (JOR)
    JOVANOVIC (SRB)
     
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  15. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Maybe. Options are limited with confederational neutrality and other performances, though. I think FIFA can be satisfied with the overall performance and not punish the team for that DOGSO without exactly being fully happy how it went down. Though again, with the Americans being so good at the practice of VAR, I think its efficient use--even on a play FIFA might have wished they got right in real-time--can sort of balance things out for the crew.
     
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  16. lil_one

    lil_one Member+

    Nov 26, 2013
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Women's assignments:

    Canada-Great Britain

    R: MONZUL Kateryna (UKR)
    AR1: RATAJOVA Lucie (CZE)
    AR2: STRILETSKA Maryna (UKR)
    4O: JACEWICZ Kate (AUS)
    VAR: ASHOUR Mahmoud (EGY)
    AVAR: REWAY Wagner (BRA)

    Chile-Japan
    R: BORJAS Melissa (HON)
    AR1: PERELLO Shirley (HON)
    AR2: BLANCO Mary (COL)
    4O: MADU Ndidi (NGA)
    VAR: RACZKOWSKI Pawel (POL)
    AVAR: REINSHREIBER Roi (ISR)

    Netherlands-China
    R: MUKANSANGA Salima (RWA)
    AR1: KWIMBIRA Bernadettar (MAW)
    AR2: NJOROGE Mary (KEN)
    4O: RIVET Maria (MRI)
    VAR: MILLOT Benoit (FRA)
    AVAR: JURISEVIC Edvin (USA)

    Brazil-Zambia
    R: YAMASHITA Yoshimi (JPN)
    AR1: BOZONO Makoto (JPN)
    AR2: TESHIROGI Naomi (JPN)
    4O: FRAPPART Stephanie (FRA)
    VAR: GUIDA Marco (ITA)
    AVAR: BTGEN Abdulkadir (TUR)

    USA-Australia
    R: PUSTOVOITOVA Anastasia (RUS)
    AR1: KUROCHKINA Ekaterina (RUS)
    AR2: RODAK Sanja (CRO)
    4O: STAUBLI Esther (SUI)
    VAR: ZOURAK Adil (MAR)
    AVAR: STEINHAUS-WEBB Bibiana (GER)

    New Zealand-Sweden
    R: FORTUNATO Laura (ARG)
    AR1: de ALMEIDA Mariana (ARG)
    AR2: BOUDREAU Chantal (CAN)
    4O: VENEGAS Lucila (MEX)
    VAR: VIGLIANO Mauro (ARG)
    AVAR: CUADRA Guillermo (ESP)
     
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  17. Mikael_Referee

    Jun 16, 2019
    England
    I don't want to flaunt this for the sake of it, but I'd argue that the old 7,9 system is out of date - one (especially quick!) OFR does not spoil a performance, and management skills matter now more than ever before.

    It is absurd really to give eg. Björn Kuipers a 7,9 (or rather 7,8 :)) for SVKESP at the last EURO and say it really counts for anything meaningful. In Elfath's case, FIFA obviously appreciate his management skills a lot.

    An alternative system should be proposed IMO - I made one here [link].
     
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  18. allan_park

    allan_park Member

    May 15, 2000
    As I noted before, I like your system and agree that there is merit in it. Perhaps we should lobby FIFA - does anyone have any friends/colleagues on FIFA RefCom? :)

    On a more serious note, though. You and I both know that in those cases where the Referee gets a 7.9 (or 7.8 for that matter) there is an "alternative mark" given, which for those that may not know, that is the mark the Referee would have gotten if not for the one major error, in this case the failure to send off the player for DOGSO.

    In truth, especially at tournaments, I think an "established/trusted" Referee is allowed the odd "7.9" without it impacting his appointments, as long as it does not become a trend, and as long as the alternative mark is consistently good.

    So that, plus the Confederation neutrality we have spoken about frequently, likely means that Elfath was always likely to "get off" with that error without major repercussions, and I think that is fine, especially given the relative lack of quality alternatives.
     
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  19. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    [​IMG]

    Morgan offside confirmed by VAR.
     
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  20. RsmRef

    RsmRef New Member

    SSC Napoli
    Italy
    Jul 27, 2021
    I thought refs were 16. Aren't you missing Kimura (JPN) and Beida (MTN)? They got both 0 matches.
    Do you think Elfath could be in the final? There is also Barton (SLV), who got two big games (BRA-GER / FRA-JPN), Dias (POR) as top UEFA referee in Tokyo, and... I don't know. What is your prediction?
     
  21. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Not missing them. They got zero matches because they are present as fourth officials, not referees.

    I don't think I have one. FIFA has maintained confederational neutrality on all knockout matches since it became an U23 tournament in 1992 (2008 Bronze Medal match is the sole exception, which is quite odd looking back). So it all comes down to which two teams play in the final.

    If it's UEFA v CONMEBOL then, yes, I think it's a CONCACAF referee and would posit that tomorrow's matches are a direct competition for pole position between Elfath and Barton.

    If CONMEBOL isn't there, Gonzalez appears to be the top candidate.

    And if no UEFA team makes it, I actually wouldn't sleep on Kabakov but yes, Soares Dias seems to be the top contender on paper.

    I would note, having now just looked back at old assignments, that this corps of Olympic referees is really lacking in experience/prestige compared to others. The semi/final trios for the past U23 tournaments have been: Faghani/Pitana/Hategan, Clattenburg/Rocchi/Kralovec, Kassai/Vazquez/Pozo, Vassaras/Archundia/Poulat, Ramos/Bre/Daami, Collina/Baharmast/Garcia-Aranda and Torres/Brizio Carter/Rezende. Even taking into account that couple of those names never reached the highest echelons and a few were at the Olympics before they made it big, it's undeniable that there were heavy hitters present at all tournaments. I don't really see that here. I mean, Elfath and Conger are your most experienced referees at the FIFA level. I know some of this has to do with EUROs overlapping, which is usually does not, so a lower tier of UEFA referees are present. But still. It's a lot different from past tournaments... which, of course, helps Elfath (FIFA familiarity plus VAR comfortability plus, potentially, confederational neutrality).
     
  22. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    Hmm. . . and would she be on before they changed where the arm starts? (I'm also not sure the defender is measured from the right spot either--isn't her shoulder leaning, too?) That said, I'm fine with plays this close sticking with the call by the AR--if there was an error, it sure as heck wasn't clear.

    Sigh. And we had the announcer saying that the Euros were letting these goals stand. Huh? She thinks VAR was overruling AR calls that were only slightly OS???
     
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  23. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    Chelsea
    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Des Moines, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This, in a nutshell, is why I'll continue to say offside can't be an "objective" decision. Like you, I'm not sure that the lines for either Morgan or the AUS defender are drawn in the right spot. Also like you, I have zero issue with a play like this being ruled as "call stands - video evidence is inconclusive, so it's not a clear and obvious error".

    If VAR has any chance of being at least reasonably accepted, we have to get away from this fallacy that offside can be an objective decision.
     
  24. SCV-Ref

    SCV-Ref Member

    Spurs
    Australia
    Feb 22, 2018
    The same announcer that said "And they are not using the VAR Lines that we are used to seeing in the PL"...then cue the image with the the line drawn coming on to the screen.
     
  25. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    That's absolutely fascinating!

    Anyone follow the officiating assignments (I could do a google search...) for the other olympic team sports like basketball, volleyball, water polo, etc.? I think the reason for the consistent confederation neutrality is that I think all Olympic team sports must have continent neutral referees. My guess is if you look at Olympic basketball, you won't have a European official on a USA vs. France game or a Canadian official on a USA vs. Slovenia match.

    Even though olympic soccer is assigned by FIFA, it's not really a FIFA event. It's an Olympic event that is subcontracted out to FIFA. That's why all the teams don't have their soccer confederation logos.

    I don't think FIFA really cares that much about confederation neutrality, but I don't think it is FIFA's call. I think the IOC is forcing them to assign confederation neutral referees.

    Speaking of the confederation neutrality, I just realized that every single match in the 2010 World Cup maintained confederation neutrality. Looking back on it, it's so bizarre as to why?

    The 2002 and 2006 World Cups didn't follow it. The 2014 World Cup didn't really follow it all. I think there was a total of 9 matches that weren't neutral by confederation.

    The 2018 World Cup only had five matches. Three of them were in the knockout phase.

    So it's weird the lack of consistency at World Cups which I get as you need to be flexible especially come the knockout phase. But then they just rigidly follow it at Olympics.
     

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