This isn't especially profound but when you look at the guys we played today (especially the younger players--ie: not Emilio or Olsen or Moreno), it's a very poor statement about the quality of most MLS scouting (and implies that there is a lot of talent out there that isn't being noticed or captured). For instance... --Perkins (PDL guy, didn't attract interest when he graduated) --McTavish (WVU wasn't a big name program, Winchester not noted as a soccer hotbed, he was a lower pick for us) --Boswell (FIU, not taken in the superdraft and pretty much off the radar for everyone else but us) --Namoff (okay, not a young guy but Univ. of Richmond, again not a high draft pick) --Burch (we got him for a song and it doesn't appear that LAG or Columbus thought much of him) --Simms (passed by MLS, only noticed b/c of the player's striker and NT camp) --Gros (again, not on anyone else's radar screen) --Dyachenko (not at the combine, not at a big-name soccer school, got drafted b/c he and his agent mailed his tape to everyone) --Kpene (some legitimate talent but went to a small school) That's a lot of guys who weren't first round picks, weren't at the combine and weren't expected to succeed as pros.
Could it be that the pool of players is extremely large and that not all of them have had the best training in their younger years? Just because a player didn't go to the club nationals at ages 15-18 or wasn't at a division 1 school doesn't mean they can be a late bloomer and show they have what it takes to play in our league. We are not near as organized as other countries when it comes to growing and identifiying potential players in the US. I believe your statement justifies this.
Beat me to it. More likely that the scouting programs that MLS teams use are not very large and rely on combines and word of mouth. The problem with combines is that if someone doesn't show well, they can be off the radar pretty quickly. In Boswell's case, he wasn't even invited, so NOBODY really looked at him besides DC.
My understanding (and maybe I understand wrong) is that the whole thing is basically word of mouth - even combine invites. In other words, scouting is basically non-existent (and when you do scout you're primarily looking at the guys you already heard about). So if you're at a smaller school or if your coach just isn't that connected (which goes along with being at a smaller school) then word literally never gets out to MLS and nobody knows you exist and you don't get invited to the combine and MLS just passes you by. Unless you get lucky.
We've found unwanted players and turned them into quality, but we have also really crapped out on our draft picks the last few years. There is one MLS team that has consistently churned out quality from its draft picks year after year - New England. So the question becomes whether this happens because of one or any combination of these factors: A) The Revs have a larger player eval staff than other teams B) The Revs' talent evaluators are better than everyone else's C) The talent evaluators have nothing to do with it - the Revs' coaches maximize the ability of young players I don't know the answer, but it has to be something. They keep finding cheap, talented depth (and starters like Larentowicz) and I want United to be able to do the same.
"not a big name school" "Big Name Schools" don't do much scouting either - All they do is go to a few super-tournaments where only high level teams are invited and even then all they do is watch a few select games - And then onto the other tournament in another state that same weekend - These super-tournaments are held only on Memorial Day in the Spring in their off-season, and on Columbus Day weekends during their Fall season - That a few state cup games amongst the super-teams - And worse yet, high school all-star teams in the local papers - These super-club teams are put together solely to win trophies - Its these coaches that do the so-called scouting - And all they know is who beat them last time and then try to illegally recruit them - But if a great talent is on a team that doesn't make it to the higher level, he just doesn't get noticed - And YES, there are tons of those kinds of players - This is all the "Big Name Schools" do for recruiting - Oh - And lets not forget the scouting during their "Soccer Camps" - In other words, summer camps for upper-middle class kids - Not kids with tremendous latent talent - Not kids who develop late and so get left off the elite super teams Right now there is no effective scouting - The really great innovation will be youth soccer programs run by the MLS clubs that will be FREE to the kids - Lets see how this programs develops for 10-15 years and then we'll talk about SCOUTING
This discussion right now is why I'm convinced that the current club structure will be obsolete within 10 years...top clubs are basically set up as scholarship vehicles for wealthy kids or a few VERY talented youth players for whom all the other teammates will pay. But thanks to greater professionalism in the game... Coaches at mid-level colleges will put more work into recruiting, which means scouting more high school and local club leagues... High school coaches will be better able to train and improve players that may not have had high level instruction but have more ability... And of course, pro teams will have an interest in finding the best players, regardless of ability to play for expensive club teams... Just like in football and basketball, where elite schools once dominated a relatively small pool of highly competitive universities... But the primary talent identification role is going to be taken over by high schools, as with football, baseball, and bsketball, because this country is just too large for 12, or 20, or even 40 teams to effectively scout outside their immediate areas
I think the MLS youth system and reserve squad is the way of the future for finding and developing talent within the US. I used to bartend and made the aqaintance of a Georgie expatriot. He explained to me that the US system is "shite" and that only those players who are past it play in college in Britian. In Britian if you aren't picked up by a club's youth program by the time you're 12 years old then you probably won't ever see the pitch in a professional match, according to my friend. That said, we have a huge population in the US and there's Latin America to the south. There are plenty of areas where MLS should have scouts. I just don't think that MLS, the MLS SuperDraft, and college soccer will ever function like the NFL, the Draft, and college football as a talent conveyor.
That would be Geordie. And where a Geordie gets to call anything "shite" is a good question. The system he prefers in England is run by the 100 plus clubs in a country of 60 million people where it is a seven hour drive from one side to the other. MLS has 13 teams, in two nations with a combined population of 325 million people, over 6 time zones. I think an MLS based club structure is a good start but it's not a panacea for player development in North America.
I think it is A and B. The only first-hand case I've heard of MLS scouting was at a 2-year college in New Jersey (which should have been NY or DC "home territory").
My little story was merely anecdotal. I really don't care about European football or how they do things. However, I do think that MLS clubs have a vested interest in identifying talent early and then holding on to that talent. They're starting to do that. But your point that this is a huge country, one that I made in my first post, is valid and leads me to believe that a hybrid of SuperDraft and youth systems will dominate the future of MLS. As JoeW states, there is currently one team, the Revs, that regularly mines the draft for talent. Much of that talent comes from the ACC (Twellman, Cristman, Leonard, Thompson, Riley, Parkhurst, and even Heaps). Why isn't United drawing from the ACC first? Of course with Bruce we had almost an All ACC squad but that is no longer the trend it seems. This region has a lot of talent that United could tap. Given some of the low salaries you'd think getting a kid who is close to home would be a priority. I don't know the answer. I still don't think that MLS will rely on the draft and college programs as much as the NFL has and will continue to do.
I think with most of the big pro-sports leagues (NFL & NBA esp.), the only real venue for players is school leagues, which must be easier to scout...and no doubt the system has been modeled that way over the years. There's some exceptions but where else is a pointy ball player going play but high school and then college, where there is so much spotlight you have a pretty good idea where the talent is...certainly there are diamonds in the rough that come from smaller schools and make it in the NFL, but how many are coming from the USC, Miami, Ohio States etc. of the world. soccer seems to be much more diffuse, high school leagues, club leagues, college, not to mention various ethnic affiliated leagues which are probably on no ones radar screen. How many Carlos Llamosas are there out there that no one has "discovered"
Seven. But seriously, does anyone know how much a team like DCU spends on scouting? It can't be but a fraction of what a real super club (not LA or TAFKAM) spends.
I don't have a big answer but I think part of the problem comes from the roster structure and low salary cap in MLS. Teams wind up stocking their rosters with a lot of 1st year players on developmental contracts that don't pay much more than an internship with a stipend. Most of these players, unless they get classified as Generation Adidas, don't make it and are out of the league pretty quickly. Teams in the league are often unwilling to pay new players a bit more, a la Needham, and this causes some decent prospects to either not pursue soccer or pursue a soccer career elsewhere. And since they have to shape a team roster under the slaary cap some teams probably pursue the "willing to work for peanuts" players more than the "I want $40 - $50K" type player.
MLS scouting is abyssmal to say the least. The rely way to much on video and work of mouth then in person evaluations except for the combine and maybe a conference championship if it's near by. What could be done is let's take DC as an example. I would probably look at the big soccer hot beds in the country and hire someone whose job is to scout, whether it's college, semi-pro or youth and report back. If someone really promising is identified then someone higher up in the food chain goes out to take a look. The scout could get a bonus based on players who sign with the team. For overseas you can have a similar setup, which I think they do for Argentina. The biggest problem with scouting in the US is the country is to damn big, which is why you need to focus but also concentrate off teh beaten path. Everyone goes to Dallas Cup or The Wave tournament in SD or the bigo ne they have in minnesota in the summertime. Those are alright but your competing with every other coach inteh country.
1. DCU is a bad example to use in MLS. --DCU has a technical director. He's not really a GM, he does much more scouting than a typical MLS GM. --DCU copies games from Central and South America and has DVD's of thousands of games on record that the team looks at. --Emilio was first scouted by DCU at least 3 years ago (when they made an offer to him) and they've been following him since then. --Gomez was signed in 2004 but was first scouted in 2002 by Hudson. I won't argue that DCU does a brilliant job of scouting, only that it probably does more and is more organized than most MLS teams. 2. I don't know if NE is such a good example. I've heard stories about Nicol not watching any college talent until the Combine. Furthermore, the argument that he mines the ACC--why doesn't DCU is falacious. Arena originally had a lot of U.Va talent and ended up cutting a lot of it (Ben Crawley? AJ Wood? George Gelnovatch? Mike Slivinski? Kris Kelderman? Jeff Causey?) I think that Nicol and Mariner do a great job of fitting players in roles that they can succeed at, their system doesn't call for someone to be a Jaime Moreno, instead he can be a Jay Heaps or Jeff Larentowicz (much like Nowak was able to find good roles for guys like Josh Gros b/c his system called for a lot of work and runs off the ball and discipline). And NE operates from a certain amount of necesity--they don't do much foreign talent, they almost never are at the cap level--clearly the Krafts and Gulati are telling them to be as cheap as possible. Finally, NE almost never goes for teenagers (Dempsey is the only P-40 player I can think of that they've gone for and he had finished 2 years of college soccer). Now you can argue that coaches need to go for immediate help but it's real hard to find to many NT stalwarts for the US these days who did 4 years of college and instead you see a lot of people (Donovan, DMB, Convey, Onyewu, Howard, Clark, Bradley) who did 1 year of college if that.
Namoff-Bradley Burch-Maryland (got the winning goal in an important game when they won the NCAA) Gros-Rutgers Those are all pretty big soccer schools. All three were at the combine IIRC. (where is JoeSoccerFan when you need him?)
Also, from what I read it seems like folks in the UK are lamenting their player development system right now and trying to figure out how to fix it.
Right, they are buying players from all over the world at 16, 17 and 18. Their problem is the same as ours. Less and less working class and middle class people want to risk sending their son off at 16 to, all but, end their education on the long chance that they might hit the jack pot as a soccer player. Every small town has 5 or so 25 year old building laborers who did sign for the local team and ended up with nothing. Also their kids are more and more being driven to organized youth soccer, with pizza and orange slices afterwards. Then going home to Play station soccer. In other words, much the same problems as here
I wasn't using DCU as an example of what a team is doing right today, but as what I would do with the team in terms of scouting, some of which the team may already be doing, because there is still a lot that could be done, especially domestically.
Agreed--your post didn't target DCU. I only thought it useful to point out the difference (being the pedantic and anal-retentive individual that I am). And I agree with the general thrust of your position--that "scouting" right now is a joke. It's not systematic, it's not wide-scale, it's mostly seat-of-the-pants kind of stuff.
1 of 3 - Gros was at the Combine in 2004 (or so), Burch wasn't invited to the combine - but he was a well known commodity given that UMD was at the final four, Namoff - sorry I can't remember. If you go to a big tourney, such as ACC - there's a veritable MLS coaching convention. Some watch, others have assistants watching, most just talk. Scouting is an area that a motivated owner can provide an advantage for finding hidden gems. However, DCU seems to put more resources into finding international players as opposed to the draft - not saying right or wrong. Just stating fact. Not sure that I would coronate Nichols as the draft day king. In recent years, he's had some stretches. Trading up to get Thompson who I had admired most of the year - looked slow at the combine, He could have gotten him in the second round. In 2007, he picked up some good players, though, Igwe (P40), Solle (steady - Wake Forest, again), Byrne - who I like very much - but he's an international in his mid-20s (24, 25, 26 - can't remember) critical for UCSB title championship, Cristman - who I abhor. I may be coming around on him though. However, he might make a servicable defender - not as a forward. He's not clutch - and is undependable. If you want to bank on his 4 goals - you're going to be disappointed. In 2006, Oliveria has never panned out. Willie Sims and Kyle Brown not so much. In 2005, aka sleeping draft, Nichols was able to get Parkhurst and Riley. I think that DCU should spend the money to find inexpensive players who can fill a role. It's very few players that are going to be superstars in college. Also, I'm not sure that I'd go the route of Nichols only drafted players who are ready to play (i.e., no P40), because of the salary cap issues. Ok - I'm done. Lot of good points already made.
I don't think you can really hold Burch up as an example of poor scouting...he was a forward, he was brought in to compete for a forward position and couldn't make it...switching him to outside back is an option that will take a lot fo time and investment and is iffy at best, not surprising that a club may not be interested in that project.