To Card or Not To Card?

Good no-call. What would the sendoff have gotten you in terms of managing the match? Besides, if you needed an excuse for not booking, just say that not all the criteria were met. For most U12 girls, even a PK is not an obvious goal scoring opportunity.

 

I agree with your decision in your particular game. However, if it was some sort of tournament or State Cup match, I would be more inclined to give out a red for a clear DOGSO, but in your case, I agree with your thought process in that it would have done nothing for the game (in fact, it probably would have made things MUCH worse).

Somewhat related story from me. I was doing a U-12 game (girls I believe) and a team was winning 5 or 6 to zero. The winning team is still attacking (that peeved me off to start), and one of their players goes down near the left side fo the PA. The coach is screaming for a call (it really wasn't worthy of a PK) and says "You have to call the game the same throughout." What would giving a PK do for the team already getting killed 6-0...other then make them feel worse. Yet another coach who I wanted to throw out .

 

I just love that answer, solves it either way, either he gets the message and keeps quiet, or goes ballistic and gets sent to the car.

 

to everybody who said 'no card' - would your answer be different if the foul was only 15-20yds out?


at 30 yds out you can sort of use a bit of discretion in saying if it was an OGSO or no. Of course really we know that, technically speaking, the player should walk, you can argue that due to the distance there was no OGSO (you could also argue that 30yds is usually too far for an U/12 girl to score from).

I had a situation last year, local level first grade match. Fun match - the players were all good natured and having a laugh, it was just a fun game, no malice or tempers at all. A player had made a break, he was around 35yds out from goal when a player deliberately tripped him. The bloke who had been tripped just got up and they laughed and clapped each other on the back. I sorta figured 'ok, it's a good natured match and it's far enough from goal that I can use discretion. I probably should send him off, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt'. However, i had to give him something, so I cautioned him. If it was closer I would've sent him.

Basically, there are situations where can use your discretion on if there was an OGSO or not - proximity of other defending players, distance from goal, direction of player, things like that. The mood, skill level, age, and to a certain extent the scoreline, may affect on which side your discretion will fall. Of course, if it's obvious and you can't really use discretion then DOGSO is DOGSO - there's nothing you can do. But if, in a situation like this, you can legitimately say 'no, she was too far from goal to have an OGSO' (additionally, in these types of games even the type of foul may affect where your discretion falls, if it's deliberate attempt to take down the opponent, or simply a mistimed tackle), then what's the harm?

Like all things, there is a certain amount of discretion we can use, but that discretion only lies in determining if there was an OGSO or if we can semi-convincingly say there wasn't. I'm not justifying not carding a player as a cop-out, but if there's no need then what's the harm on our discretion falling to keeping the players on the park? Once you've decided there WAS an OGSO there's nothing you can do.


But, overall, sending off an U/12 girl for a mistimed tackle 30yds out would be pretty harsh. Permissible, but I would generally expect the referee to use discretion.


Would anybody's decision have been different if it was closer, or a blatantly deliberate foul?

 

Several years ago I was an AR for a State ref on a U12 boys tournament match. A defender at my end, standing on the goal line, reached up and swatted a shot right out of the goal mouth. After we both picked our jaws up off the ground , the center called the PK and pulled out the red. The only comment from the assessor after the match was, could he have waited a second or two to see if there might have been advantage that could have commuted the card to yellow. Sometimes a man's gotta do what he's gotta do.

 

Any game that is purely recreational in nature you can, for the most part, do whatever you want. Afterall, the score ultimately does not matter and the people are there to enjoy playing the game, therefore does denying the goal really detract from that purpose? I would advise that it depends on the mood of the game, and the intention of the cheating player. If everybody is there solely in good spirit and a player happens to deny a goal through whatever means with no malicious intent, and it does not ruin the enjoyment of the others involved, then there really is no reason to send that player from the game. If the act is done maliciously and/or ruins the good spirit of the game then the send off may certainly be warranted.

The referee is there to oversee the safety, equality, and enjoyment of the game. Sometimes showing the red is what ruins those three rather than the act itself. Remember - the referee should only do the absolute least necessary to punish the infringement while keeping the game in control.

 

Oddly, this just happened to me last Friday, in a coed game. (Hurray for co-ed soccer, rah bloody rah rah.) The last defender (the keeper had come out off his line and failed to block the shot) just instinctively reached out his hand and batted away the ball. It was a particularly bad night for me anyway, as the players seemed to think I didn't know the LOTG: you know how it is, a few Pommie expatriates on a team, and of course they all know the game better than any American could, blah blah.

The only saving grace was that the ball at its trajectory was going over the crossbar anyway. In a recreational league game, especially with a bunch of cretins I just wanted to get away from, I couldn't justify a red card. What good would it do? The team was already down 3-0. The ensuing PK was lesson enough, I hope. No one argued with me not ejecting the player, and I gained a certain measure of respect from the players by subtly telling the offender what the correct discipline for such a foul was. Anything to salvage a wasted evening...

 

True, but your situation was different. If I was being assessed, I'd red card a 5 year old . Honestly, if it was U12 and the kid jumped on the ball with both hands, 2 feet before it rolled into the goal I still probably wouldn't give him a red card, unless the tone of the game was such that it was ultra competative, the kid was a problem to begin with, etc. While most of the coaches/parents out there think they are bringing up the next Mia, the kids are mostly there to have fun.

 

It really wasn't all that different from vabeacher's game. (This wasn't an assessment match, the assessors were just doing informal RFTs. In fact, we didn't even know he was there until after the match.) I agree, in a high-level competition like Snickers Youth Cup, you do it by the numbers whether or not anyone else is watching, while in most rec leagues you have to judge whether the sendoff would just make matters worse.

 

That's the problem. It isn't like there are only 2 levels of competition, ULTRA competative and rec. There is premier, select, kinda select, sorta select, better then rec, just above rec, rec, below rec, can barely kick the ball, etc. All of these can exist in the same age bracket. The tricky part is figuring out what the participants would think is a fair punishment and go with that.

 

no wonder there is so much inconsistency out there, you guys bend the rules all the time. A foul is a foul whether it is at the rec. level or at the Snickers Cup.

as a coach I would not have yelled at you were my team up 6-0 and a kid from the opposition does something that deserves a red card but I really would appreciate it if you would come over to the sideline and told me "hey coach, I know it is a red card but come on, you are ahead by 6 goals"..no problem

to tell me to slow down when I am ahead by 6 goals, I would tell you to mind your own business.

it is not calling fouls or giving out cards at a certain level or agegroup that frustrates me; how are they ever going to learn?

 

They'll learn when they're ready. Rec league does not need to learn, they need to have fun. If they want to join a competative league, then do so. Actually I got a note from our referee coordinator about coaches running up scores and how we can prevent it. The league is starting to fine teams that run up the score, and we were instructed to talk to coaches about it if they do so. Believe me, you wouldn't get away with running up the score on me if I was in the middle. I'm wouldn't make up phoney calls, but believe me, that game would slow down so much there wouldn't be a minute that goes by without a whistle. And a foul is NOT a foul no matter what level it is. Have you noticed that we don't call games the same way at U-12 as referees do at MLS level? Nor do you call a rec league game the same way that you call a snickers cup game. That is BS. Yes there are certain standards, but excessive/reckless judgement is different.

 

While it is certainly true that a foul is a foul, certain fouls are "trifling or doubtful breaches" which we used to be instructed to ignore, as whistling such fouls created bad temper on the part of the players and interfered with the enjoyment of the game. This is not bending the rules, as you say, but rather one of the formerly written official decisions upon the Laws of the Game, which any sensible referee adheres to.

I play soccer. I referee soccer. When I'm forced to, I coach soccer. And each of those aspects of my experience reflects in some way upon the other. I am guessing you have never played in a soccer match where the referee whistled for what seemed to be every single foul. I have. I swore if I ever saw that referee again, I'd disembowel him. I have most certainly coached in that game where the referee was too timid to call a foul unless the coaches or players bullied him into it. I hated that, too. And I've refereed numerous games where I've been forced in the interest of the game to start dealing cards as though at a poker match. And I hated that match, too. As a player/coach/referee, I've never wanted 1) an interfering referee who negatively affects the outcome of the game; 2) a know-nothing, do-nothing referee (see above); 3) not to enjoy myself. In the interests of the game, which is, after all, a game and therefore played to be enjoyed by players and spectators, good referees must interpret the context of each game sensibly.

As a final note, as a player, I would NEVER play in my current rec league the way that I played competitively in college. A good player adapts to the type of game being played. Why shouldn't the referees?

A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds. It is best not to pursue such specters.

PS: I assure you if you ran up the score on a team in a game where I was in the middle or along the line, your name would go into my report. And in our state recreational leagues, you'd get the lowest sportsmanship score I could possibly dole out, with further recommendations that you retake your Ethics class. Any coach who runs up a score is 1) missing the point of the game; 2) killing the enjoyment of the game for all concerned; 3) losing valuable time where he could be teaching his team how to prepare for a tougher match by passing more, dribbling less, trying new tactics and such. Not to mention, I'd call you an arse, just because.

 

I think you're giving the kids a lot of benefit of the doubt that they don't deserve.

I have, a couple of times, sent off an U/12 for a DOGSO offence. Each time, as soon as I blew the whistle, all the players knew he was being sent off.

they know the laws. They know right from wrong.

I've also learnt the hard way that they can become quite proficient, even at this age, at learning how to deliberately bug opponents and even the referee.

if it's a blatant DOGSO then I don't see how you can justify not carding.

 

I reffed a U11 game last weekend that one of the little dudes attempted a 100% dive, right infront of me just inside the penalty area, so ya, some of them sure know what they are doing.

I simply told him to get up, stay up and if he shows his acting ability again I would show my yellow card ability. He smiled and went on his way. He didn't dive again.

 

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forgot about those rec. leagues but still.

You do know that the best referee is a referee that no one talks about and is hardly noticed during the games, right?

See that is the problem, most every one agrees that the kids need to play more street soccer or soccer with less adult supervision yet some of those rec. leagues have so many silly rules in place that they contibrute to the problems.

believe me very few 7 year olds remember the score by the time they get to the car, also believe me when I say that very few, if any, Hispanic or Eurpean kids quit the sport after they were involved on the wrong side of some lobsided scores.

It is the influence of parents that grew up with baseball and their mercy rule that caused all of this PC'ness

8,9,10 year players nowadays are smarter than you think, ahead of many of the referees out there as far as soccer smarts is concerned.

I think you need to have grown up with the sport to recognize this.

I sure hope you do not mean this..No need to learn? You can't have fun and learn at the same time?


ps; why are you telling me to slow down the scoring, why not tell the other coach to defend better? The players on my team are doing their job.

 

So what you are telling me is that you would handle and blow fouls a certain way and then once I am up by too many goals you would change that?

Man, this assignor is not doing you guys any favors.

 

Yes, exactly.

I mentioned this example in another thread but it's germane. U12 boys, one player has a yellow card for barging an opponent in the back without attempting to play the ball - he was mad (the opponent had just made a hard tackle on him, earning his own yellow card) and he was looking to cause some pain. 5 minutes later, this same player is called for a foul on the same opponent. He gesticulates angrily at the call. As the opponent takes the free kick, this player steps toward the ball and blocks the free kick with his foot, at a distance of one yard.

What do you think? A second yellow card? In this case, the referee reached for his pocket and then decided not to give the card. Was it the right call?

I'd say, it depends. In most cases, yes. In this case, no. This was a premier level game between two teams that have collected a combined total of 7 yellow cards and 2 red cards in their last 3 meetings. The kids all know the drill. They looked at each other and thought, "Hey, that player just got away with something." As it turned out, the game was about 10 minutes from ending and nothing too ugly occurred. But something could have happened, because the kids were given a signal that they knew how to interpret, that they could take advantage of the referee's goodwill.

I wouldn't be so cynical about most U12s. I don't think that it would be appropriate for a game the next division down. But for this game, yes.

As Flunkie says, many nuances with such decisions.

 

what's all this talk about the referees preventing coaches from scoring a lot of goals?

I fail to see how that can be justified.

 

Unless specifically directed by a league or other competition to tell coaches not to run up the score, the referee should not interfere. If you feel this is unsporting you may make whatever comments you wish on the game card and report them to the competition authorities. However, as Jim Allen so aptly put it, "the only way to win is to score."

 

This is where it is good to attend some classes on coaching. In my state, in at least 3 districts, it is a serious breach of coaches' ethics to run up the score beyond six goals. And this in select league--rec league is even more emphatic.

While, as a referee, I agree the referee should not interfere when it is not his province to do so, as a coach I am also aware that there are other skills to be learned when a U12 team is up by 6 in the second half.