Title IX's Damages to USWNT Hopes

Discussion in 'USA Women: News and Analysis' started by Thomas Flannigan, Oct 23, 2003.

  1. runbabyrun

    runbabyrun New Member

    Aug 17, 2002
    I hate the men's revenue vs women's revenue comparisons. Most college sports do not make money. Football is the cash cow (and b-ball in some cases). But wrestling, men's soccer, baseball, etc do not make money. It is not a male vs female thing. It is football/basketball vs every other sport. If we are going to complain that the men carry the women, let's be accurate and say that football carries everybody. The women are not hangers on anymore than most male sports. Also, some women's sports programs are self supporting. Mainly b-ball and some v-ball. I would reckon to say that UNC may be self supporting in women's soccer based on the guarantees they get to play at other venues as well as the nike dollars. Do not know this as fact, but I bet they are at least close ot break even.
     
  2. striker

    striker Member+

    Aug 4, 1999
    Can someone remind me what is the purported purpose of having sports team in college?
     
  3. Turk from Pigs Eye

    Turk from Pigs Eye New Member

    Jun 14, 2002
    Pigs Eye (St. Paul),
  4. A Fan

    A Fan New Member

    Aug 15, 1999
    I hate the money thing too because if you look at pure stats, over 60% of DI football programs lose money. So? They still deserve to play and I support them just as I support my soccer programs who also lose money.

    Just a reminder, you don't have to comply with all three prongs of the test.

    Face it as much as you complain Title IX will not go away. Too many women have been directly affected by this law to see it die. And I hope too many men have seen their daughters or sisters be directly affected by this law to let it die. And I don't just mean sports. They let in 2 women to Pitt med school the year my grandmother applied. She had 3.9 and wonderful test scores. She got rejected.

    But I need to stop arguing because I have practice tomorrow for my college sport which didn't exist at my college before Title IX.
     
  5. Thomas Flannigan

    Feb 26, 2001
    Chicago
    Dead wrong. The Justice Department (I have to laugh when I write that) has made it clear that The Quota is a "safe harbor" that denotes compliance.
    Title IX has done terrible damage to males, who already constitute only 40 per cent of college students, men's sports, and the USWNT. The competition at the NCAA level has bee diluted by the mismatch between opportunities and number ofm people devotyed to the discipline.
    A few months ago, I visited Mustard's Last Stand, a hot dog place on Northwestern's campus. A female sports team from the school was in there after practice, having a meal. They had the best of everything in terms of equipment, uniforms, bubble wrap for sore knees, and so on. I was curious what sport they played. I listened to their conversation fos for 30 minutes and IT NEVER CAME UP. They talked about everything but sports. You can be sure female teams prior to The Quota would be talking about the next match, the coach, or whatever. They weren't doing it just for the money
     
  6. monster

    monster Member

    Oct 19, 1999
    Hanover, PA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    In 2001-2002, Duke University's Equity in Athletics Disclosure form showed the following figures.

    Men's Basketball
    Revenues: 9,271,500
    Expenses: 4,759,004
    Gain/Loss: 4,512,496

    Football
    Revenues: 6,415,098
    Expenses: 6,262,077
    Gain/Loss: 153,021

    Women's Basketball
    Revenues: 321,095
    Expenses: 1,660,370
    Gain/Loss: (1,338,465)

    Other Men's Sports
    Revenues: 65,087
    Expenses: 3,087,499
    Gain/Loss: (3,022,412)

    Other Women's Sports
    Revenues: 0
    Expenses: 4,891,755
    Gain/Loss: (4,891,755)

    Totals
    Revenues: 16,073,590
    Expenses: 20,661,405
    Gain/Loss: (4,587,815)

    Just the facts.
     
  7. monster

    monster Member

    Oct 19, 1999
    Hanover, PA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    http://www.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/title9guidanceFinal.html



    Just the facts.
     
  8. house18

    house18 Member

    Jun 23, 2003
    St. Louis, MO
    How is what I wrote an insult??? You have two daughters who may benefit from Title IX but you want to kill it. So essentially you want to dash some of the possible hopes and dreams of your daughters. Maybe you ought to look at this issue from more then one side.
     
  9. Thomas Flannigan

    Feb 26, 2001
    Chicago
    I do not want to kill Title IX. I am opposed to quotas. Remember President Clinton's spokesman Stephanopoulos sanctimoniously telling reporters that the President is opposed to quotas. This occerred around the time OMB leaked a memo which provided the precise gender and race quota for all federal appointments, and Clinton said: "No white male will be considered for the position of Attorney General." The government is opposed to quotas? Yeah, right.
    Concerning my daughters, I was a little surprised how many people brought up Title IX or "that law" when commenting on the arrival of two daughters. Several said about the same thing: "They'll be tall, they should be able to get full rides to college." When I pointed out what a lousy athlete I am a couple of people said: "It doesn't matter if they are lousy athletes. Girls who are willing to play sports can get scholarships. You won't have to pay for college."
    I don't know what the future holds but I hope they succeed on their own merit. That is what America used to be about. I would hate to have people snicker that they got something they didn't deserve. College expenses are a major problem for the shrinking middle class and that is why new welfare programs like the Title IX Quota are popular in some quarters. But it is not fair and it is doing a lot of damage, including damage to the USWNT.
     
  10. Bryan Gividen

    Bryan Gividen New Member

    Mar 8, 2003
    Provo, UT (BYU)
    A quote for all...

    Rep Canady, reading from Title IX statute:
    "Nothing [in the law] shall be inerpreted to require any educational institution to grant preferential or disparate treatment to the members of one sex on account of an imbalance which may exist with respect to the total number of percentage of persons of that sex participating in or receiving the benefits of any federally supported program...."

    Rep Waters, interrupting: "Fifty-fifty! Fifty-fifty!"

    Rep Canady: "No, Title IX says no person in the United States shall...."

    Rep Waters: "It's the biggest quota you've ever seen. It is fifty-fifty! It is a quota - big, round quota."

    -Hearing of the House Subcommittee on the Constitution, June 1997
     
  11. beineke

    beineke New Member

    Sep 13, 2000
    I'm sure that Thomas's daughters will have plenty of opportunity to become athletes. However, it is insulting to suggest that they can only become athletes if they benefit from a quota system that costs major universities several hundred million dollars a year.

    You do realize that Germany won the Women's World Cup, right? Do you think they have Title IX in Germany?
     
  12. Poachin_Goalz

    Poachin_Goalz Member

    Jun 17, 2002
    Athens, GA.
    Do the Title IX scholarship issues effect NCAA gridiron football as well? If so, this is part of the problem right here. You need 50-60 scholarships to have a chance at competing in Div 1 football. This creates a huge "scholarship hole" that athletic programs would have to dig out of to even the scales under Title IX. Since football is the main NCAA breadwinner that supports a majority of the other sports, it should be given a Title IX waiver so that its scholarships don't apply to the overall balance. This would allow for more mens soccer programs to exist. As a longtime fan of college soccer, it ticks my off when I here about Title IX supposedly causing the demise of mens soccer programs. A balance needs to be found so that both mens and womens programs can thrive. For example, I am going to the University of Georgia womens game tonight. They don't have a mens team. Vince Dooley wants to add one (his grandson plays on a local select team) but his hands are tied by the scholarship crunch.
    As far as foreigners using scholarships....I am all for it. When I was at Clemson, they always had 3-4 solid foriegn players on the mens team (Boonstoppel, De Wyligen, Tormey, Harris). I'm sure this raised the talent level of all of the players by getting to practice against them every day. It also helps MLS if they can get "home grown" foreigners that they can draft and then possibly sell later. If operated properly, the NCAA could be a way to skim mid level talent from other countries to give our player a higher level of competition.
     
  13. A Fan

    A Fan New Member

    Aug 15, 1999
    Wow, that was the worst example ever. You apparantly have no clue as to the working of a female collegiate athlete. It is so easy for women to not play sports, we get demeaned, we get ostracized. We MAKE FREAKING SACRIFICES! Don't make it sound like we have a cake walk into a free ride to college. So what if they were talking about other things! Maybe they were trying to forget a bad game or shock of a century maybe they have a life that goes outside of their sport. Wow, so that proves that Title IX is horrible because of that.

    And I'm not dead wrong. If you look strictly at the law do you don't have to adher to the quota standard. That is very bad adminstration decisions involved in the blaiming on Title IX.

    Also know we all know your stance on Title IX, but how do you think we should fix it? So you're against the quota, how would you fix it? And don't tell me just get rid of the one prong. You mention you have daughters. Can I tell you I'm not a great athlete which is why I am at a very small Division III school where regardless of your ability you can make at least one team (male or female). So I can tell you if your daughters aren't good athletes but they love a sport, they can play but they probably won't get scholarships. They could do that if they were a guy too. THe lovely world of small DIII schools. Trust me, I have friends who are struggling to get recruited for a scholarship who are great athletes. I'm serious, I'm tired of hearing complaints, I want to hear possible changes or alternative options!
     
  14. Thomas Flannigan

    Feb 26, 2001
    Chicago
    Did anyone see the Mexico game? Mexico's "National Team" was created by the Title IX quota. The goal was scored by Monica Gonzalez, who studied Spanish at Notre Dame. Jennifer Sobrino was the keeper and she played at Colgate. Colgate eliminated its men's wrestling team and poured money into women's soccer, even though the Wrestling Hall of Fame is located at Colgate! Title IX is creating stiff competition for the USWNT where none existed before.
    My solution? Get rid of The Quota and require the schools to provide equal opportunity, which is what the law is.
     
  15. Auriaprottu

    Auriaprottu Member+

    Atlanta Damn United
    Apr 1, 2002
    The back of the bus
    Club:
    Atlanta
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    Been saying this for months, but it makes too much sense for anyone to try it in practice.
     
  16. monster

    monster Member

    Oct 19, 1999
    Hanover, PA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Just the facts, Part 3

    AMERICA'S shrine to the sport of wrestling, the National Wrestling Hall of Fame and Museum, is a focal point for the past, the present and the future. It preserves the heritage of the sport, celebrates new achievements, and encourages the youth of our land to aspire to lofty goals.

    This historic site in Stillwater, Oklahoma -- located on the campus of Oklahoma State University -- is a symbol of commitment by the wrestling community to man's oldest sport.

    http://www.wrestlinghalloffame.org/info/
     
  17. Thomas Flannigan

    Feb 26, 2001
    Chicago
    http://www.wrestlinghalloffame.org/champions/?teams&team=72

    http://www.themat.com/pressbox/pressdetail.asp?aid=4790

    "The athletic director at Rider, Curt Blake, is a key individual in college wrestling who has done a lot for the sport. He used to be a Div. I college wrestling coach at Colgate Univ., a college not too far away in Central New York. I should know; my older brother wrestled for Blake at Colgate and I attended a summer wrestling camp there. As you might guess, Colgate no longer has wrestling, either. (Are you seeing a pattern here?)
    ******
    Then, as in so many other places, it happened. Albany dropped its wrestling team. As with most drops, there are the regular excuses, such as “moving up to Div. I,” or “budget” or “commitment to Title IX.” Wrestling, the most successful sports program on the entire Albany campus, the team that brought national and international acclaim to the school and the region, was history.

    Colgate is now spending lots of money helping Mexico develop a team that can beat the USWNT.
     
  18. Poachin_Goalz

    Poachin_Goalz Member

    Jun 17, 2002
    Athens, GA.
    Football is the primary moneymaker in college athletics. The football $$$ pays the bills for soccer at the college level at a majority of the division 1 schools. I went to Clemson. The soccer team draws 1000-3000 people per game. A large number of these people are students who get in free. Soccer is considered a "non revenue" sport at the college level. ACC expansion was inexacted purely to create a gridiron championship to enhance revenue from football programs. This money is split between all 12 schools. This would in turn help support the non revenue sports. I'm sure that each University and the ACC as a whole conducted a cost benefit analysis comparing revenues that they currently receive dispersed among the current 9 teams vs the projected revenues with a gridiron championship game and 12 teams. If the new plan didn't enhance revenue, they wouldn't have done it. As far as Duke and UNC being concerned about student athletes best interests, that's a crock. Any competitor in their right mind would love more and better competition. Miami adds an awesome football and baseball program to the conference and Va. Tech has a very solid football program right now. I personally am excited about BC's soccer programs being a part of the ACC. Athletes should be excited about this. Duke and UNC didn't care about added strain on the athletes. They were worried about a potential breakup of the 4 NC schools if the conference was divided geographically. With a North/South split with 6 teams in each, the N.Carolina schools would have been split up 2 north and 2 south. Thus we are left with the current compromise non geographic alignment (that Duke and UNC voted for by the way) that is less cost effective for nonrevenue sports. Duke and UNC were not acting as benefactors of student athletes. They got what they wanted out of the deal as did each school (except the Big East that is). I personally would have liked to see both conferences merged into a huge superconference but the money split per team would have been too small. ACC expansion provides another mens soccer program in the league. I don't see how more revenue for athletic programs is bad for non revenue sports. I haven't heard anything about any schools canceling programs in any sport.
     
  19. monster

    monster Member

    Oct 19, 1999
    Hanover, PA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Thank you for admitting you lied when you said the Hall was at Colgate. That was my one and only point.

    I never said they didn't drop their team. Back to your regularly scheduled - and ocassionally factually-based - hysteria.
     
  20. Thomas Flannigan

    Feb 26, 2001
    Chicago
    Auriaprotto, Ms. Foudy and Ms. Donna de Verona were adamantly opposed to excluding football, or any other compromise. Ms. De Verona crowed: "Men's college wrestling will die a natural death."
    The USMNT isn't doing too well either. Competition has been diluted by so many teams, while Mexico and Canada, teams we used to beat 9-0, are now close to beating us with teams developed due to The Quota. Fans of the USWNT should be concerned about the damage Title IX is doing to the USWNT.
     
  21. Labdarugo

    Labdarugo Member

    Dec 3, 2000
    Downwind
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If this were a wrestling match, I'd score two points to Mr. Monster for a takedown and an additional two points for a takedown that put his opponent directly on his back for at least two seconds.

    Tell me, what color is the ceiling, Mr. Flannigan? :p
     
  22. Thomas Flannigan

    Feb 26, 2001
    Chicago
    "Then, as in so many other places, it happened. Albany dropped its wrestling team. As with most drops, there are the regular excuses, such as “moving up to Div. I,” or “budget” or “commitment to Title IX.” Wrestling, the most successful sports program on the entire Albany campus, the team that brought national and international acclaim to the school and the region, was history.

    The Albany-Times Union, which published a tremendous 12-page special NCAA Wrestling section this morning, somehow missed this story in the edition (granted, they may have done it earlier…) There are big stories about the NWCA Title IX lawsuit, the dropped wrestling program at Syracuse and the weight-cutting issue. But nothing about SUNY-Albany, and the tragic loss of its program."
     
  23. Thomas A Fina

    Thomas A Fina Member

    Mar 29, 1999
    Hell
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The USMNT is a typo, right?

    Question : Why is competition such a bad thing? If you say that the absolute quality of the play is going down, as opposed to the relative quality, then maybe you have one leg out of many to stand on. But all you are saying is that the USWNTs competition is tougher because the other teams are getting better - nothing wrong with that at all. For the record, Monica could have tried for the USWNT, but decided she'd have a better shot at the Mexican Team - you know , kinda like Thomas Dooley or Ernie Stewart.
    Despite you claims, you seem to begrudge every other team their success.
    Everyone else is catching up. Live with it...you remind me a bit of those pathetic wankers who get the knickers in a twist every time the Yanks do well in football.
     
  24. Thomas Flannigan

    Feb 26, 2001
    Chicago
    I am a nationalist. I cheer for the U.S. and I do not rejoice when Argentina beats our men's basketball team or Germany beats the USWNT. I want our teams to win and I don't get a kick out of watching "relative" decline.
    Thomas Dooley and Earnie Stewart got their training without Germany and Holland wiping our vibrant sports programs that fed their national teams in other sports. Germany and Holland haven't been thowing scholarship money at our young players either. They develop their own citizens, which is the way it should be.
    Canada and Mexico are getting close to parity with the USWNT due to Title IX. Look at their player pools; it looks like a reunion for NCAA scholarship holders.

    http://www.dailytarheel.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2003/11/04/3fa7ada4b5751
     
  25. monster

    monster Member

    Oct 19, 1999
    Hanover, PA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    1. Cutting and pasting facts - OK; Actually using them yourself - not OK. That's the way it goes for you, Tom, right?

    2. After watching my own college wrestling team be put on death row (and successfully fighting to stay the execution for three years even though my eligibility was exhausted), I would never gloat over the dropping of a team.

    But consider these numbers when standing up for Albany's lack of altruism when it comes to men's sports.

    Losses from women's sports - $1,666,301
    Losses from men's sports - $1,886,387

    As always, I'm sure a number of factors went into these decisions. Saying it's always just one thing insults the intelligence of rational people.
     

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