Time for a new "Yet Another Mass Shooting Thread"

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by argentine soccer fan, May 14, 2022.

  1. Bootsy Collins

    Bootsy Collins Player of the Year

    Oct 18, 2004
    Capitol Hill
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I just wrote a long response to this, and in the middle of it, Tapatalk crashed. FML.
     
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  2. rslfanboy

    rslfanboy Member+

    Jul 24, 2007
    Section 26
    I think we can all agree that Tapatalk sucks.




    sent from my iphone using Tapatalk
     
  3. rslfanboy

    rslfanboy Member+

    Jul 24, 2007
    Section 26
    You know what? I need to change the word "theory" to "hypothesis" or "guess".

    Now..... back to swimming in my own sewage.
     
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  4. Bootsy Collins

    Bootsy Collins Player of the Year

    Oct 18, 2004
    Capitol Hill
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #2954 Bootsy Collins, Oct 27, 2023
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2023
    I'm going to try to play "Man vs. Tapatalk" again.

    I don't think a request for people to "game out" scenarios is really appropriate, since I can't "game out" what would happen with any speaker, including Jeffries, since I do not know for certain what's going to come before this House and this (or some other) Speaker.

    So instead, I speak in terms of relative probabilities. And those statements are based upon assumptions, chief among which is this: I reject the confident assertion put forward by many (most?) here that the Republicans in the House are some kind of sci-fi-ish hivemind, with no differences whatsoever on any issue that may come before the House. To me, that view is directly contradicted by their lack of uniformity on votes, from the certification of the 2020 Presidential election to the CR last month. I'm not saying that any of them are what we would call anything other than "awful"; but there's clear evidence to the contrary of the assertion that all of them are *equally* awful. And less awful is preferable: I'd rather get hit by a javelin in my hand than in my head.

    So with that in mind . . .relative probabilities. I think it is more probable that this House, with Johnson as its Speaker rather than McCarthy, will *effectively* retaliate for the prosecutions of Trump. I think it is more probable that this House, with this Speaker, will allow a government shutdown that will extend for many months. I think that a House run by this Speaker is more likely to allow the U.S. to default on its debt. I think it is more likely with this Speaker that Congress will authorize no more support for Ukraine. I see it as more likely that this House will stymie government attempts to respond in any way to climate change -- even just attempts to address the impact of disasters and other things happening right now, if those things happening right now are attributed to climate change. I think it more probable that this House, with this Speaker, will undertake an aggressive campaign aimed at persecuting gay and trans people. I think this House, with this Speaker, is more likely to do whatever they can to eviscerate science education. And I base these "more likely" statements on the words and actions of those two people.

    One can of course assert that some (but by no means all, or even most) of the actions described above would require the agreement of the Senate and the President, and are therefore unlikely to occur. To me, that neglects how the House can impact society: the House does not need to pass anti-gay legislation to make life much harder for gay people, simply by changing the Overton window. It also neglects the possibility of this Speaker, and the Republican majority, lasting until the Senate and the Presidency change hands.

    One can also reasonably argue in reply that the differences in likelihoods would not be enormous: from 70% to 90% perhaps, but not from 30% to 90%. And I agree with that. But to me, when so much damage can be done, anything is better than nothing. Would you rather be 70% likely to drown in sewage, or 90% likely to drown in sewage?

    Even among a party replete with wingnuts, Johnson is extraordinary. I see Johnson's ascension to Speaker as a disaster, not at the level of Trump's win in 2016, but up there.
     
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  5. Cascarino's Pizzeria

    Apr 29, 2001
    New Jersey, USA
    We've launched a boat from the spot that the killer dumped his car. So f'd up that I know that whole area.
     
  6. ElNaranja

    ElNaranja Member+

    Houston Dynamo
    United States
    Jul 16, 2017
    My counter to everything Bootsy wrote is I don't think those things are less likely under the other traitor. Rather, I think the big difference is this guy while clothe everything in Cristo-fascist rhetoric and McCarthy would've done it in plain fascist rhetoric. I don't think either is a good enough administrator to carry out those tasks.

    And a rep for a well thought out critique and response.
     
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  7. Bootsy Collins

    Bootsy Collins Player of the Year

    Oct 18, 2004
    Capitol Hill
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Why, given that they've disagreed with each other not just in words, but in votes, and on some of these issues?
     
  8. diablodelsol

    diablodelsol Member+

    Jan 10, 2001
    New Jersey
    Add in the fact that GOP “moderates” (and for the rest of you….the quotations are intentional. I am defining them as moderate in RELATION to the rest of the GOP caucus) now feel like the Dems at a minimum aided and abetted, if not outright are responsible for, the removal of McCarthy. I suspect many of them will vote and act vindictively (more so than they would have) going forward….in a you guys ********ed around so now you’re gonna find out kind of way.
     
  9. rslfanboy

    rslfanboy Member+

    Jul 24, 2007
    Section 26
    What you are describing is a hostage situation, where the hostage taker is blaming those they're trying to extort for killing the hostage.

    "Look what you made me do!"
     
  10. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    And it would fit right in with their public statements during the Jordan fiasco--simultaneously blaming Democrats for taking McCarthy down, while also stating that the Speaker is the leader of the House GOP and is elected to forward their agenda.

    If the Democrats are not united in opposition, they serve no purpose at all.
     
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  11. Bootsy Collins

    Bootsy Collins Player of the Year

    Oct 18, 2004
    Capitol Hill
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Would you say that's an axiom?
     
  12. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    First he reveals he is an Elrond fan, now the tapatalk thing
     
  13. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Republicans have no agency.
     
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  14. raza_rebel

    raza_rebel Member+

    Dec 11, 2000
    Club:
    Univ de Chile
    The wife's side of the family used to go to the general area (Camp Kieve-Wavus) a lot in the summer. They have taken me a few times and passed by the area.

    The shooter offed himself BTW. Body was found https://edition.cnn.com/us/live-news/maine-shootings-10-28-23/index.html
     
  15. soccernutter

    soccernutter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Tottenham Hotspur
    Aug 22, 2001
    Near the mountains.
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If I'm a Democrat in the House, and it is being suggested that I vote for somebody who is the leader of my party in the House, I'm going to be asking what I am voting for. IOW, if I am voting for a Republican, what am I voting for? What have they done, or what policies have they put forth that match my willingness to vote for them?

    For instance, a middle of the road Dem, would ask:
    • Ukraine Funding;
    • Thinks Trump lost the vote in 2020;
    • Call for a floor vote on the Biden impeachment hearing;
    • Would not vote to lower taxes on the wealthy (or vote to continue the tax cut);
    • Would pledge to not defund the Special Counsel's office;
    • Pledge to work with Democrats to prevent a government shutdown.

    Take any two off that list, and there is a deal. But what Republican would go for the other four? Emmer, maybe? Buck, maybe? Other than that, who would be viable on those basic Democratic wants? This is why no Dem should have ever considered voting for any Republican running for leadership, because those basic items would be shot down. Those are tenets of the Democrats in the House. What are the tenets of the Republicans in the House?
     
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  16. Bootsy Collins

    Bootsy Collins Player of the Year

    Oct 18, 2004
    Capitol Hill
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Given a choice between one candidate who would not give you any of those things you want, and another who would *also* not give you anything you want *and* pledged to eat your children, which of those two would you pick?
     
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  17. ElNaranja

    ElNaranja Member+

    Houston Dynamo
    United States
    Jul 16, 2017
    There is a difference in being a voting member and being a leader.

    They may vote different but I don't think there is much of a difference ein what gets brought to the floor for a vote.
     
  18. soccernutter

    soccernutter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Tottenham Hotspur
    Aug 22, 2001
    Near the mountains.
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The vote for is not a requirement. If there is an alternative who is better than either of the binary choices you provide, that should be taken.
    But in this case, it is an argument why to vote for somebody other than the person who meets all of the above criteria. There is a minimum threshold that needs to be met.
    Basically, I read your argument as "I'm going to stop all food assistance programs" versus "I am going to promote the killing of people who need food assistance." Why would a Dem support either?
     
  19. Bootsy Collins

    Bootsy Collins Player of the Year

    Oct 18, 2004
    Capitol Hill
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That's a religious belief.
     
  20. Bootsy Collins

    Bootsy Collins Player of the Year

    Oct 18, 2004
    Capitol Hill
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Because those are your only two choices, and one is preferable to the other. And when the people who need food assistance start being killed, "hey, at least I didn't compromise my principles" won't be much comfort.
     
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  21. soccernutter

    soccernutter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Tottenham Hotspur
    Aug 22, 2001
    Near the mountains.
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So, which one is Jeffries. Does he eat babies, or does he not?
     
  22. soccernutter

    soccernutter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Tottenham Hotspur
    Aug 22, 2001
    Near the mountains.
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Getting back to the mass shooting part of this thread:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...-guns-ar-15/?itid=hp-top-table-main_p001_f002

    This is a follow up on the Louisville, KY, bank shooting in April.

    ...his parents say nobody in Sturgeon’s circle knew that on April 4, amid his struggles, he had purchased a gun. His psychiatrist, who had met virtually on April 6 with Sturgeon and his parents, had even indicated he was on the mend, Sturgeon’s parents recall.

    “We had been led to believe he was over the hump and he was getting better,” his father, Todd Sturgeon, told The Washington Post. “We thought everything was okay.”

    Then came the massacre.

    This why did this happen?

    Sturgeon’s personal and workplace difficulties, the extent of which have not been previously reported, point to a larger debate over whether the AR-15 and other similarly destructive weapons are too easy to get — particularly for troubled young men who gun industry critics say are often the targets of marketing campaigns built around masculinity, military imagery or sex appeal. The intersection of mental health and gun violence emerged as a flash point again after last week’s mass shootings in Maine, where the man suspected of killing 18 people had previously been hospitalized and received mental health treatment, according to a person familiar with the investigation.

    Is this taken seriously?

    Representatives for Radical Firearms[, maker of the AR-15,] declined requests for interviews and information. A spokesperson for the company told The Post via Instagram direct message, “You guys already cause enough issues in the world.”
     
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  23. Bootsy Collins

    Bootsy Collins Player of the Year

    Oct 18, 2004
    Capitol Hill
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Neither. He's not a choice, because we'd have seen a celluloid dog chasing an asbestos cat through a snowy hell before we'd have seen him take the Speakership.
     
  24. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Belated thanks for your thoughtful response.

    I still believe you're wrong--not in the details of your argument, but in assuming that McCarthy's relative less-terribleness compared to Jordan or Johnson would be worth the cost of sacrificing Democratic principles and political unity.
     
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  25. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    It's maybe worth a reminder that according to the GOP whisperers at the Bulwark it doesn't make sense to think of the GOP caucus as split between moderates and MAGAe

    There are no moderates and some of the 'reasonable' house GOP are much more conservative than the crazy wing who aren't even conservative

    Rather the split is between MAGA and "BT" (before trump). BT types actually believe in doing the job of governing - so these are the kinds of people you see still supporting Ukraine. The MAGA types have no real interest in doing their jobs.
     
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