Tim Howard Vs. Fabien Barthez

I think it was Brad Friedel that talking about the difference between the prototypical American keeper vs. the prototypical European keeper sometime in the last year or so. It may not have been Brad, but it was one of our American keepers over there.

That type of move is one of the things that he commented about where the American keepers are at an advantage due to the sports they participate in growing up vs. only playing soccer. That time of movement is common in basketball when fronting a post player and the ball is lobbed over them. It is also a common type of move for a defensive back in football. So that may be part of it.

The other part I suspect is just size and age.

Tim is 6'2" with a pretty big wingspan and Fabian is 6'0" (but he doesn't look that tall, so I'm wondering if the ManUtd.com height is accurate). Also, Tim's arms look a lot longer than Fabian's.

Tim is 24 and Fabian is 32 -- that spring is one of the first things to go as you age and when moving backwards is when that spring is toughest.

So it could be a combination of all 3 of those, but you are correct, I have seen Barthez blow that type of move several times.

 

Nice post, kev. But isn't 32 right about the perfect age for goalkeepers to hit their stride? Forwards at 32 might be a little creaky but I think keepers at 32 ought to be ok. And remember, Barthez is 32 *now* - he's been making those blunders for several years for us.

 

Barthez never struck me as being particularly athletic. He would normally do a good job of being in the right position, but you almost never saw him making the big saves. A team with pinpoint shooters could beat him and make it look easy, as we saw against RM last season. I agree that the reason we produce so many good keepers is that we grow up playing sports like basketball, baseball, and football where having good hand-eye coordination is important. Howard's save on Fowler's "shot" was indeed brilliant, but not all that different from a lot of moves you'll see from an NFL cornerback. Howard seems to be more fundamentally sound than Barthez, and yet he also can dive or make other plays if needed.

 

I think Fab is approx 5'-10". He was very athletic, that's how he made the big time.
I just think that last year Fab made a few bad decisions in key games and pissed off SAF.
There is no doubt that Howard has been doing well for us though and as for the type of saves he's been making for UTD; he's been doing them for years in the MLS. keep up the good work Timmy.

 

Barthez was an acrobat. But he was also short. I think that Fowler-deflection would have been a goal against him - at least, that's what I thought when I saw it.

Barthez had the best reflexes I've ever seen in a GK, though, Iker Cassilas comes close. Howard's aren't as good. He's got good reflexes, but Barthez's were really remarkable. He'd make a lot of really fantastic diving saves on headers in the box, etc, that led you wondering "how the hell did he even see that in time to dive, much less get enough power to stop it, and get it away?!"

Barthez also has better hands than Howard. Although Howard compensates by being more careful. He'll "cradle" the ball a lot more with his body. Barthez was very good at securing the ball on even diving saves. Howard's more likely to tip them away.

Barthez is also better with the ball at his feet.

Then, of course, they're both prone to fits of madness (what the hell was Howard thinking going that far out of the box for that ball?), but Howard's less crazy. And he's less consistently crazy.

Despite the fact that Barthez had some advantages, I'll take Howard. He's bigger, more athletic, and more consistent. He's also better at communicating with defenders.

 

Geez, wouldn't you think a French guy like Barthez would have no problems moving backwards with his arms raised?

 

ROTFL!!!!!

 

I don't even think this is a question. Timmay is so much better than short french man that it is a joke. I think it would be tough for Barthez to get a starting job in MLS.

 

Whoa, I was nodding along with you until this comment.

I just don't see that at all, especially given that Tim uses both feet pretty well for clearances and generally gets out of jams quicker.


The only other thing I might say is that Tim is a bit too trusting of Roy Keane when he demands the ball, always rolling the ball out to him about 25 yards out right in the center. There's been a few ugly giveaways like that but I don't think they've been burned for a goal yet.

 

That's because SO much of being a keeper is mental -- so they generally mature later. But the athleticism of anyone is going to be better at 24 than 32 -- particularly the springy type athleticism.

If Barthez is 5'10" as someone said, then that, combined with wingspan differences would be a big issue for Howard getting to that shot vs. Barthez. Barthez is probably giving up 5 or 6 or possibly even 7 inches just in pure physical attributes on such a shot. Howard did not save that with 6 inches to spare.

 

damn should of saved some stats from the paper..

in all first seasons at OT Howard is on top, of both Bartez and Schmechiel <sp hehe, he has the most clean sheets in the EPL and is vying with Cudichine of Chelsea for best keeper.. I do think the different sports americans play growing up has an influence, howard was pretty good at basketball i heard.. I think hell be a world beater howard , he has all the best abilites of the great dane and grobbelaar backed with some baseball, basketball, American football knowledge coup of the season !! i saw the video Tony Coton (goalkeeping coach) made of Howard, some of the saves were hillarious, one like against Citeh, running back after being lobbed, he dived towards the goal line facing forwards and back fisted the definent goal out of the net, it was an amazing save.. and a really strange one at that..

 

very good. but don't forget that Cantona is French, and so is Serge Blanco (really showing my age now). There's two guys that'll stand their ground at any cost, imo.

 

I thought Barthez had excellent technique, for a keeper.

Have you noticed all the problems with backpasses? Some of its because the defenders play too many back. But I think part of it is because howard seems to take longer to control the ball and get rid of it than Barthez did. Barthez seemed more comfortable hitting the ball first-time. And he was also known to side-step attackers as well.

IMO, he did so far, far too much. He seemed to enjoy the risk, as opposed to Howard, who just does so when necessary. Howard's more judicious about it; but I think Barthez actually had better technique.

We all remember Barthez's sliced clearances, particularly in that game against newcastle last year at the end. But remember Howard at the beginning of this year? I can't remember which, but there was one game in which he was otherwise excellent... but in the 2nd half, he cleared 3-4 balls in a row very poorly and on the ground.

 

Honestly, no, I don't think they've been a huge problem but if his defenders trust him and do it a bit more often then well, OK.


And he was also known to side-step attackers as well. IMO, he did so far, far too much. He seemed to enjoy the risk, as opposed to Howard, who just does so when necessary. Howard's more judicious about it; but I think Barthez actually had better technique.

So lets see ... Barthez was better at doing a reasonably dangerous skill far more than he was supposed to. He could probably do a better "scorpion kick" save, also.

I think the couple side-steps from Timmy this year is just about the right number.


We all remember Barthez's sliced clearances, particularly in that game against newcastle last year at the end. But remember Howard at the beginning of this year? I can't remember which, but there was one game in which he was otherwise excellent... but in the 2nd half, he cleared 3-4 balls in a row very poorly and on the ground.

Yeah, and I seem to remember a general clusterfuck in their defense that day. I definitely remember one clearance being his fault, maybe two. But its usually not a good idea to clear a ball in the air if a man is charging straight at you - the safer clear is on the ground somewhere, but it doesn't look pretty or safe. That gets back to the "too many backpasses" idea but I think it was mainly a problem in one game.



Like Motterman said, I think people just don't realize how well Tim uses his left - most goalkeepers just "get a pass" when an ugly looking clear comes from their off foot, or they just hit it straight out of play. I don't think I had noticed his two-footedness in MLS play, it wasn't until Mexico or maybe Argentina when the rumours had started (and I was scouting a bit closer) that I saw it.


I could also mention his long kicks are looking pretty good - one assist a couple weeks back, nearly another this weekend, maybe more to come as he links up with teammates better? Granted I don't remember Barthez' assist stats ...

 

There have been alot of good posts... its about time for a pigheaded one...

I think that Howard for Barthez starting is great... I believe that Barthez is better at certain things (certainly possitioning, and placing the wall correctly, reflexes, dribbling, speaking french etc.) but Howard is better at as many things if not more... and at 24 if he can manage not to cost us games while gaining experience, he is the way to go... there are not that many young starting goalies in the EPL and one of the youngest I remember was Shaka Hislop.

Granted, Tim Howard is taller than Barthez... but because he is taller, its a helluva lot easier to make saves on balls over his head (which at his height, there are not that many of) The sports you play growing up may affect your ability to do that the first 10 times you have to backpeddal, but as a professional goalkeeper, once a ball goes over your head and scores you should train and practice going back to make that type of save better... the crap about cornerbacks and posting up is nonsense.. I doubt if Tim Howard ever played corner back, and quite frankly a lob pass to someone in the post is more about possitioning, balance and strength, than about agility.

That said, a goalkeeper needs these tools. Height, Agility, Eyesight, Reflexes... everything else can be taught and learned...

 

can you speak it?

barthez can speak french way better than howard.
you gotta give him the nod on this one.

 

Exactly. I said I preferred Howard, did I not? But I dislike the current tendency among some Man Utd fans (not talking about you) to pretend Barthez was utterly crap. I thought he was mostly an excellent keeper and enjoyed watching him.

Ok. We can disagree . I just think Howard, when he doesn't hit it first time, doesn't trap that well. No biggie and something that can be fixed.

Actually, I haven't noticed, I admit... though I haven't been looking. Might feel embarrassed about that... being a GK myself, I watch them more than most .

I remember Barthez being pretty good with distribution, generally. I know he started a lot of counters with good throws. But Howard seems to do this, too. Howard definitely has more power on his clearances, as you expect. Not sure if I'd give much of an advantage here, either way.

One thing I do like about Howard, here: if he's not sure, he just knocks the crap out of the ball. Better to potentially lose possession than make a terrible mistake on a short throw.

 

Have to agree with you here - the Barthez bashing was out of control (mainly thanks to us Americans) when the Timmy rumors started up. He was excellent in the Prem last season but no one would admit it. Of course the Champions League play and maybe SAF's memory of past gaffes still meant he was toast.


I just think Howard, when he doesn't hit it first time, doesn't trap that well. No biggie and something that can be fixed.

You're probably right - and Tim's probably being a little extra cautious since he's new in town.


Actually, I haven't noticed, I admit... though I haven't been looking. Might feel embarrassed about that... being a GK myself, I watch them more than most

Yeah, I had a little embarassed feeling when I first noticed it, like I had betrayed the GK gods with my lack of awareness ...

 

I've also noticed how well Tim clears the ball with both feet. Barthez could only use his dominant foot, and that made for some tricky situations with him.

I have to admit that if Roy were yelling at me to give him the ball, I would be too worried about the wrath of Keano to do anything else. (And yes, you're right. No goals yet with these dangerous balls to Roy.) Howard may be learning here. I don't remember any balls from Tim to Keano during the derby.

 

Saying Barthez was better with the ball at his feet than Howard is a joke. Barthez could only handle the ball with his left foot, anything on his right was a turnover waiting to happen. In fact, many of his worst errors came when caught with the ball on his weak foot. This is common among keepers (having a weaker foot) but Barthez took it to an extreme. Meanwhile, Howard can collect with both feet well and boom balls out with both. There is a reason the Man. U defenders feel so comfortable sending him so many back passes. He probably gets more back passes than anyone in the EPL for that reason.

Barthez wasn't horrible, he just made horrible mistakes at times, which for a goalkeeper is worse than being a mediocre keeper who doesn't make mistakes.

 

Oh, please.

Look at the time it took Barthez to trap the ball, and look at the way Howard traps it. He's just not as good at it. Sorry.

Worse than a mediocre gk who doesn't make mistakes? Right. That's why he's still France's first choice. And why, in goal, his team conceded fewer goals than any other team in the prem. And don't talk about the CB's - people were criticizing Ferdinand the entire year, and Blanc when he was playing.

Barthez won several games outright (see the second Aston Villa game last year). The only game that he really was bad in was against Real Madrid. That's it. Two years ago, you've got an argument. Last year? No. 3 years ago? No.

You don't need to tear down Barthez to establish Howard as a good keeper, but that's seemingly what most American United fans do.

 

I can't speak to Barthez's ability to control the ball at his feet or his ability to one time. However, one observation I've made regarding how and he handles backpasses - assuming little pressure.

As opposed to just kicking the ball aimlessly forward, he seems to try and identify a play that might be made. Usually trying to find a 'target' player that can head the ball towards goal.

May not be as quick or perhaps pretty, but effective.