(because let's be honest, the 6th-round pick doesn't really count) Regardless of how this year's draftees may turn out on the field, I think the choices and moves (or lack thereof) made by Councebet and The Wank today stand as another example of a management and coaching team that are incapable of taking this club to a championship level. Four defenders and not one of them a true standout. Adrian Cann? Must be that the Rapids see something in him that nobody else has. Not only were there no video highlights of the kid, but none of the on-air talent covering the draft had anything to say about him other than what was listed in his bio. And for all the good comments that Kevin Taylor may have been granted following his performance in the combine, in no place have I read that he's on the level of Marshall, Cochrane, Goodson, Wingert or Griffin. If defense was such a priority for the Rapids, why then was there no attempt to trade up for a first-round pick for one of the defenders commonly referred to as capable of starting this year? There's always the argument that a low, unknown pick can turn into a great surprise and over the course of a few months prove himself an excellent player. Then there's the likes of Nat Borchers, a player who wasn't even drafted to begin with. On top of all this there are more than a few coaches who believe that the best defenders grow into the role, oftentimes starting out in midfield or forward positions before discovering their calling at the pro level (again, fitting the example of Borchers). If any of those are the case, then why use a second-round pick on a defender at all? Realistically, the best the Rapids can hope for from any of these defenders in 2004 is that they'll become serviceable starters. There's little reason to expect much beyond 2005; why should there be, when only one of the Rapids' draft picks from 2003 remains, and only one from 2002. To put it bluntly, come playoff time, will any of the defensive draft picks be capable of putting in a better performance than the likes of Wes Hart or Robin Fraser? Hart may have left something to be desired on the right flank, but I'd much rather have him in reserve than any of these FNGs. If (as pigtail stated elsewhere) Fraser did indeed sign at a lower salary, how do you justify the trade of a player with brains, vision, and a high level of skill in exchange for a handful of unproven kids? Moreover, if the Rapids will be without Mastroeni and Borchers for significant periods of time this season... why was Fraser traded at all? As it stands there are no experienced and capable backups for center defense during either players' absence -- or worse, injury. The most likely option suddenly becomes pulling Powell out of midfield. That's right Rapdis fans, expect the lineup tinkering and positional/strategic merry-go-round to continue well into 2004. I've got nothing against the potential that any of these kids have in providing quality service for the Rapids, and certainly wish each of them the best of luck in bucking the trend of disappointing draft picks for the Rapids. Adolfo Gregorio at least appears to have the potential to make a good fit in the team; lord knows they need it, as without even seeing him play it's not hard to argue that he's 5th in our midfield depth chart. Unfortunately that speaks less about Gregorio's skill than it does the lack of contribution expected out of Trembly and Kingsley. I've said it before and I'll say it again: under Hankinson, the Rapids have yet to find a single player who can come off the bench to provide a real offensive spark. And unless Councebert and The Wank have an outstanding, hidden signing or trade hidden up their sleeve, with today's draft picks the chance of seeing that player in 2004 is fading fast.
I think Borchers has a great chance of making the Olympic roster, and if he does he will be gone with them in their pre-tournament schedule through Athens.
Actually, Greenie, its pretty clear Councinson have no respect for defensive talent. I suspect that the draft choices will yield a minimum of 1 starter (and possibly 2) in the back. They had no interest in keeping 'celo, Fraser, Martinez, etc. We haven't had *ANY* continuity in the back since the new coach took the reigns (and the leaders of this black/blue mentality don't care).
I don't think my hopes were ever quite so high to be dashed by the outcome of this draft. I'll also miss Fraser. Mostly because he's a class act, but realistically it wasn't a bad move trading him. My concern with this group as with previous drafts is that I'm not certain that we'll really ever know if some of these kids are players. This is their shot, and unfortunatly for them they were drafted by a team that has a lousy history of developing players. I've said elsewhere, and I'll stick by it, at seasons end we'll be looking back impressed by the good drafts Chicago and San Jose had. Those organizations do more than just draft well. Pinning any hopes on the draft requires a commitment and patience in helping those players make the leap. The Rapids have never shown an aptitude for player development or the ability to allow the rooks to get late minutes in a game. I blame Hankinson for that. Counce obviously deverves his share as well considering Mooch didn't develop anybody of note either, and Counce has been the constant here. We're gonna need help when Borchers, and Beckerman get called. Pablo will get called into camp for qualifiers. The call ups are cause for concern, but then again if it weren't for injuries and call up neither Borchers nor Beckerman would be in the U23 camp right now. These kids who just got drafted had better be prepared to make the most of the slim chance they'll get otherwise their careers will be short. The Rapids organization has neither the aptitude nor the patience to give them more than the chance an injury or callup will allow. Expect to see some crazy lineups, but then again this is Hankinsons team, so you should expect that anyway.
another missed opportunity Not creating the opportunity to draft Wingert or Griffin was a mistake, some how / some way the Rapids needed to get a pick in the 1st round, bottom line - they didn't get it done. On the flip side of the coin, Adolfo Gregorio at the 15th pick overall looks like a good selection.
You need to get out more or something. I think its a little bit hard for someone (Adrian Cann) to be a nobody when they are voted their confernce's defensive player of the year while having to sit out 5 games due to eligibility questions. People need to realize that there are other quality players out there besides those at the power schools. You could at least wait until you see the kid play before you bash him unmercifully.
Re: another missed opportunity They had a pick in the 1st round. #5, however, it was given to SJ in the Cannon/Garlick fiasco!!! Listening to MLS Super Draft this morning echoing in my ears is Garber saying, "With the 5th pick of the 1st round of the draft the San Jose Earthquakes select Ryan Cochrane Nike Project-40" (D 6-1 170 20). While I am not trumpeting Cochrane's stardom, he and 10 other notable players would have been available to the Rapids at #5. From day 1 the Rapids have shown a unique and consistent facilty for poor player mangement, poor player selection, both domestic and foreign, and poor player develoment. The constant has been GM Counce.
Ok, let's pretend you were the boss today. What would you have done, who would you have picked and support your selection. If you are trading, be specific on the details and maybe even why the other team would make the deal.
1) I would have avoided the Cannon/Garlic mess by passing on Cannon and keeping #5 2) Trade Fraser for #16 3) at #5 Ryan Cochrane Portland D 4) at #15 Adolfo Gregorio UCLA M 5) at #16 Sumed Ibrahim University of Maryland M or Guillermo Memo Arzate UC Santa Barbara M 6) at #25 Kevin Taylor University of Michigan D or Khari Stephenson Williams College M 7) at #35 Denny Clanton University of Dayton D or Phil Hucles College of William & Mary D 8) #45 & #55 who cares? 9) No other trades. Only tradeable Rapids are Mastroeni, Borchers, Beckerman & Carrieri. Also, Garlick in my scenario. Spenny is too old and too valuable to the side. Sure I would trade the likes of Crawford, Hart, Kingsley, Trembly, etc. but who wants them? 10) ?Allocation? either forward or #10 Of course, I would have fired Hankinson and if I am Counce I would fire myself.
To put it bluntly, come playoff time, will any of the defensive draft picks be capable of putting in a better performance than the likes of Wes Hart or Robin Fraser? Hart may have left something to be desired on the right flank, but I'd much rather have him in reserve than any of these FNGs ------------------------------------------------- I totally agree. Why did we let fraser go when he played well last year and NOW is going to continue to play for another team.. For what we got they do not compare to his ability, experience etc... He even took a cut in pay too so he could of stayed here. He Probably had had enough of hankinson.. I think of fraser leaving for all he has done and see no-good powell getting all that money for what!! Why doesn't he have to take a cut in pay.......
Here, here! Once again I will come in and play the role of the naive optomist. I liked the fact that this draft was about size in the back. I think players on the defensive end should be able to tower over some of the small attackers. We certainly got size this time around. Maybe Trembly and Ritchie will have to get some stilts. I am excited to have an attacking midfielder. The video shown during the broadcast of Adolfo Gregorio looks like he can put the ball on goal, well. So here's hoping with him. I agree that the Rapids should have tried to trade up to get Leonard Griffin or Chris Wingert. They are more proven, but not assured successes. I was shocked to see them both in the second round but the p-40 players are too attractive. How do you know the Rapids didn't try to move up in the draft only to be shot down by another team? They did move up to get back into the 3rd round. And on that topic, why do you all want P-40 on the Rapids so bad. They are more players we wouldn't get productivity out of for a few years. I'm happy to get guys graduating from college. As for "what would I have done". I would have traded up to the start of the second round. I think Chicago would have traded for something good because of all their picks. That could have gotten Wingert or Griffin. But so is life. We have the management we have and there is nothing I can do about it. Life goes on.
P-40 don't count against senior roster size limitations or salary cap, and more often than not they are better than the average college player available. Sure, some don't pan out, but mostly they are guys identified by MLS as having above-average potential. If it is between a P-40 and a Developmental longshot, I'll take the P-40. Besides, don't P-40s get some kind of educational stipend? They are going to need it after Counce and Hankinson ruin their development and they have to go back to the real world.
I know they don't count against the roster and salary cap but I disagree that they are more often better than college players. I think in the last season specifically we've seen college players stand out. Ralph was rookie of the year and not P-40. Borchers and Dunivant were the rookie defender standouts. Not p-40. The P-40's take longer to develop because they have missed out on a few years. It will take them longer to get into the first team and make an impact.
I understand your point, but what I was trying to say is that they are better than the average college players in the draft. Maybe because their group is smaller the P-40s look better to me overall. Look at the names listed under the P-40 heading: Wingert Cochrane Cronin Dempsey Grabavoy Marshall Adu These are all guys with their feet in the National Team pool, and for the most part are considered top prospects. Many have experience beyond the college level with the U-17 and U-20 programs that should better prepare them for the MLS game, so I'm not sure I buy the argument that they have missed out on a few years. The only P-40 player this year who probably won't figure in his teams near-to-immediate plans is Bradley, and if it weren't for his dad I'm not sure he would be in the program.
The P-40's take longer to develop because they have missed out on a few years. It will take them longer to get into the first team and make an impact. ------------------------------------------------ i don't get your point. they get to play with professionals alot earlier than college players. what years have they missed out on? if they come in between 18-20 they have been playing somewhere just like the college players and then they start playing with professional whereas college players are still playing against their age ....why will it take longer to make an impact. if it looks like they are making an impact at practice then they will play just as a college player who comes in after 4 years and makes an impact
Yes, but Wingert is not a p-40 and therefore slipped into 2nd round. Otherwise, your post is right on. Almost all P-40 players have USA youth national team experience. Four year college players without higher level experience are behind in their development.
Firstly, who do the Rapids have aside from Mastroeni interesting enough to induce the Fire to trade their #11, at which time they drafted Griffin. Wingert was available. At #14 they traded with LA for a 2005 1st rounder so I doubt that they Rapids could have pried # 11 from the Fire with picks alone. Secondly, as I detailed elsewhere typically a 4 year college experience delays ones soccer development. P-40 all the way. Also, don't expect a draftee to make an impact in year one. Those that do are decidely in the minority.
I don't think the Rapids would have had to use players to make a trade like this. But yes, it would have been hard to do and they obviously couldn't. I just wished they had. My point earlier was that p-40's are entering the league at younger ages and will take longer to compete with the big boys. I know the list of p-40's is impressive. My point is look around the league and see who is making an impact. Older, college players. Let's look at the Rapids P-40 players; Seth Trembly is currently, Kyle Beckerman just graduated, Chris Carrieri used to be. None of these guys are impact players on the team, we are waiting for them to get there. To develop. Since we have holes in defense I don't want a P-40 defender who is going to take a few years to mature. I want someone who has a chance to get in and contribute, like Todd Dunivant, a college grad. That is all I am trying to say here.
None of these guys are impact players on the team, we are waiting for them to get there. ----------------------------------------------- They are making more of an impact than than todd dunivant.. just because he is a college graduate makes you think he has made more contributions? don't get your logic at all... ... show me stats that college graduates are making more of an impact in this league...beckerman is making an impact in the national scene and on this team. the only reason that it has taken him 4 years is because certain coaches don't give younsters a chance until the talent hits them in the face..Carrieri has been an impact player also or he wouldn't have played alot last year...trembley was finally given the chance and help them go on a winning streak.
Oh c'mon, a week ago it was all 'we're not gonna get crap because they traded our good picks away, blahblahblah', and now it's 'hey, why didn't we get good players, blahblahblah'? I'd say we did all right for where we were, if Gregorio becomes a solid starter this season I'll call it good.
What makes a player a sure thing to contribute just because he went to college for four years? You could argue that because of the strict rules which govern NCAA, and the relatively short season, that players who only play college ball are less prepared than younger players who have grown up in the U-17 and U-20 programs, which give them experience playing against various styles of play in competitions around the world. I think that MLS sees the P-40 program as a platform to entice the better players out of college and into the league sooner. Right or wrong, this practice exposes young players to the professional experience, where they either prove they can hang with the big boys (Beckerman, Carreiri) or drift off into obscurity (Nino Da Silva, Marvin Quijano). You may not think Beckerman, Carrieri and Trembly are stars, but they are servicable MLS players. And think where they would be right now if they had stayed in/went to college. Do you really think they would be better players today if they didn't go P-40? Coaches probably look to draft P-40s first because they don't eat valuable roster/cap space, and figure that they can find the next Borchers or Dunivant in the 3rd or 4th round. Beyond a small group of players each draft, there really are no sure things. So they snap up the P-40s and roll the dice later on. Maybe this would be different if MLS coaches and GM's had more than the most basic knowledge of the talent available in the college draft pool, but more often than not I get the feeling that coaches make selections based on geography (the local kid from the local school) and a lucky throw of the dart at the names left on the list.
I will take issue with the above paragraph but otherwise I agree whole heartedly with your supposition. Unless an unusual player is available always go for the P-40 or TI. Until MLS is firmly establish and profit generating this will remain the modus operandi. Essentially all draftees (few exceptions) came from the MLS Combine this is a very limited player base. It will expand once teams all have youth training and are finding their own talent. Your description of coaches & GM's fits the Hankinson/Counce duo to a T. But is way off the mark when considering Arena/Payne at DCU or Bradley/Wilt or Sarachen/Wilt at Chicago.
I might be overstating the case to say that all GM/Coaches draft from the Counce/Hankinson handbook. But take last year's Chicago draft for example. They took Ralph in the second round, after Nate Jaqua. If they knew he was that good, would they have let him slip by with the #3 pick? They let guys like Noonan, Magee and Gaven go past them at the expense of Jaqua. Then they went on to select such notables as Logan Pause, Ryan Mack, Phil Swenda, Rob Friend, Chad Dombrowski, and Ryan Fugataki. Of that group, only Logan Pause remains on the roster (according to www.chicago-fire.com). Bradley's last Fire draft? Kelly Gray with the #5 overall pick looks pretty good, but he also took Billy Sleeth in the first round! (I do admit, though, that Bradley does seem like one of the few coaches who have the ability to draft and groom young talent.) My point is that for most coaches, every pick after the first round is pretty much a guess. It's almost impossible at this point to tell who will make the successful transition from NCAA to MLS. Besides Bradley, which MLS coach has consistantly found dependable players from the college ranks?
You are all missing my point, I think. P-40 = younger, less developed, raw talent. College Player = Older, more playing time under the belt. A college player is more likely to impact his team because he is older and more experienced. Sure, P-40 can be more talented and doesn't count on the full roster, but they are younger and more raw. Please do not agrue that an 18 year old is going to come into the league with more experience than a 22 year old. That is a 4 year growth period in body, mind and soul. Not that a player needs all those to be good on the pitch, but having that development makes the player more likely to perform well. I am not talking in certain terms, I can't. A draft is all speculation. If you look at the rookies in the league, the college players made more of an impact in their rookie season then P-40. Examples? Rookie of the year Ralph. Todd Dunivant was the best rookie defender, followed by Nat Borchers. If your counter is that P-40 players might turn out better for the club in the future, fine. I see that and agree. However, I'd rather have a rookie out of college than P-40.