To read Yanks Abroad's article regarding Jonathan Spector and West Ham surviving relegation (thus far, court and FIFA battles to come yet), you'd think he was an integral part of their survival. However, the interesting thing is that his being ushered to the bench parallels the rise of West Ham from relegation certainties to a finish clear of the drop. On February 3rd, against Aston Villa, winners of two of their last 14, Spector made his last regular start in a game that saw the Hammers lose and fall 5 points adrift in the relegation zone. Up to, and including that game, he had 18 starts and 4 subs in all competitions. His relegation to the bench coincides with an upturn in Hammer form. By March 4th, they gave Tottenham a good game and Spector was an unused sub. They went on to win 7 of their last 11, with Spector starting one game, subbed in 5 times, and watching 5 others in their entirety. At the conclusion of this period they were 3 points and 2 teams clear of the drop. Of course, some would harp upon the rise in form of Tevez as a key factor in the Hammers' fortunes, and I think they'd be right, but it's nonetheless interesting that Spector didn't play a ton while the Hammers were saving their necks from relegation.
and played 70 minutes, as the 1st man off the bench in the quintessential key match at old trafford, against the Champion's of England. And in a match where they were put under more pressure than a deep sea diver, he was a defender for a side that kept a clean sheet, while they desperatly protected a 1 goal lead. thanks for trying. No luck.
Yanks abroad is going to pimp American players. That is no surprise. I would hope that most people could see for themselves what Spector's true contribution to the team without depending on a forum that everyone would expect to be biased from the get.
Clearly...because every single goal scored against them came courtesy of crosses by the other team's left winger... The only time I could say I remember him being directly responsible for a goal was when he got pantsed by SWP against Chelsea.
Not necessarily saying you're clutching at straws, but I would be inclined to think that looking at how many goals were given up while he wasn't playing versus when he was, determining any other changes that were made in the backline during that time, and looking at the striking power of the teams that they played would be much better measures of how much his sitting had to do with any defensive improvement...to make no mention of Tevez's contributions (which are largely to thank for their salvation). In short, I think you may have found a coincidence, rather than a cause.
Spector was pretty crap most of the year. But later on, especially in the last game, he started playing much better. Curbs seems like like him a bit, and i think he'll come good in a year or two.. He gained so much experience being on that team this year.. A bunch of bad examples, then the big turn-around lead by Mr Tevez..
Curbs likes Jon a whole lot and my take is that Jon will be a rotation/squad player for the Hammers for quite a while. And there's nothing wrong with that either. West Ham will be one of the top eight or so richest clubs in England. Jon will play and make a nice coin with them. At some point, he may warrant a starting job. Otherwise, he'll fill in whenever and wherever necessary.
If you take the 7 from 11 EPL finish of the Hammers, and extend it over a season, they would have finished in the Champs League spots, which is more like some expected when a top 10 team and UEFA participant spent wads of cash on Tevez and Mascherano, among others. Instead, they finished 15th, with a points total actually lower than when they were relegated in '03. And this position was secured via a mad rush in which Spector was a marginal participant. While you might be able to sneak by some here with an argument that he was not to blame for their early fortunes, you would probably then also have to grant that he had little to nothing to do with the return to form that kept them in the Premiership. Which, in and of itself, is telling.
1st - Spector has a bandwagon? 2nd - was anyone saying that Spector was a key reason for West Ham's survivial? (though one could make a case that he had a HUGE impact based on what happened at Utd in the final match) 3rd - spit out your point. You're obviously leading somewhere with all this
I love hit and run comments like this one. Don't like the thread? Unsubscribe and move on. Half the fun on these boards is speculation and the like. Apparently you need to have your threads deal in cold hard facts. Unfortunately, that would elminate about 95% of 'em.
West Ham had 5 clean sheet victories in its last 10 games, none of which Spector started. Which equals the amount of clean sheets they had all season until that set of games, including a game against Brighton in cup play. Of those 5, he was an unused sub in 2, a sub in 3, and a starter in 0. And, of course, the easy responsive argument to "give Tevez credit for the winning" is that it is hard to give Spector any credit for same, then. He started 10 of the last 11 sitting and only subbed in for half those. For those who would annoint him our next NT starter, those should be troubling numbers. You'd expect the NT starter leading the charge, not resigned to the periphery at a key juncture.
Look, if I told you that the Red Bulls' recent swoon coincides with the return of Mathis from the suspension he earned against Houston, we might say that matters. Why then can't I say it's interesting that Spector was a marginal participant in the Hammers' fortunes this spring? At best, he's a part cause of their struggles. At minimum, he was sat for much of their run and thus can't take any credit for it. And this is one of the guys NT fans want to pencil into the starting national eleven?
--Seriously? The emergence of Mark Noble and Carlos Tevez, along with Bobby Zamora scoring again, had far, far more to do with them staying up than Spector had with them getting in trouble.
If the point is that Spector this season didn't earn a starting role, that is clearly true, as he wasn't placed in a starting role muchin the second half of the season. If your point is that he was poor, I'd think the fact that he remained on the bench and was used in crucial situations is an indicator that you're overstating. Looks as if curbs decided he was useful off the bench, the role he was given. Would he have played the same role if West Ham hadn't had injuries? Maybe not, maybe he wouldn't have made the bench. Impossible to know, however. The arguement that he didn't lead the team to safety is a straw man, though, isn't it? Haven't seen that assertion made. He was useful. He was a sub. He played well in a couple of games when called upon. He hasn't, yet, been jettisoned. when he is, we'll learn that curbs wasn't pleased. Before that, the evidence indicates he was.
It's a game near the end of the season where your team is fighting for its life and decides to not try?
The argument he didn't lead his team to safety is indeed a straw man, and it's your straw dude, not mine. I never said anything like that. In terms of who "led them to safety", you'd find few takers for anyone other than Tevez. My point was more about deletions from the lineup that might have affected the Hammers. I said his benching coincides with their success, or at minimum means he had little or nothing to do with same. Someone on the bench is most certainly not leading them to safety, as they aren't leading squat, and in his case, are probably happy for the minutes they get. I don't know how you can look at someone who started 18 of their first 30 or so games, many under a different manager, who then started one game the rest of the season (11 games), while his team suddenly looked decent again, and didn't even emerge from the bench for half of those games, and act like he was viewed with favor by his new manager. As you granted at one point, the bench was the role he was given at this key juncture, as his team fought its way out of the abyss. For someone who was more integral in the earlier part of the season, and left the very team the new coach previously managed, I'd hardly see that as a vote of confidence.
Considering they'd beaten Man U (swept them, actually) but not Chelsea in the first go-through, that Chelsea needed Ws to keep up their chase of Man U, and that they had to play again in 3 days against a team where they had a better chance (Everton), it was sort of a toss-away.
Exactly. YOU might say that. And that proves his point. You'd be wrong. You see its a lot harder to make this inane point when the people you think you are trying to convince have seen the matches in question. Point of fact, Mathis has been completely irrelevant to the NYRB difficulties from their last couple of matches. Instead it has been a combination of poor form on the part of DVB and injuries to Reyna and Wattereus (and for my money the sitting of Josy in the last match). And that is exactly his point. You are confusing causality with commonality. Just because 2 things happen at once doesnt mean one caused the other. Things like Reyna's injury for NYRB and Tevez finding his game for WHU not only share commonality with the things you cite... but may have more to do with causality. If you had pointed to relevant statistics other than a very broad w/l record you might have had something interesting to say... instead its just clutter.
You might say that but the evidence you're trying to bring to bear in support of your point is not up to the task. Did you watch any of the games, by any chance? It is after all possible to make a qualitative assessment of Spector's performance in the individual games that speaks directly to his contributions to the team's fortunes, for good or ill. In fact, people did that all season long and I don't remember you participating much. Yet here you come now with the post hoc "analysis" that not only makes no reference to the direct evidence (his performance in the games themselves) of Spector's contributions, it also ignores the huge factors of team chemistry (and Spector was never mentioned in the stories about this) and changes to the head coach, while moreover trying to preempt references to Tevez, whose contributions to the win streak have been spectactularly apparent, as "harping". I watched the games, at least the ones that were available to be watched, and there were far, far more things going on out there there to the detriment of the Hammers than Spector. He was disappointing in a few but in my opinion he was a positive factor overall. Apparently in his coaches' opinions, too, since he wasn't permanently dropped from the starting lineup until Neill was bought. I repeat, the evidence you present in support of your hypothesis does not fit the task. The fact that you ignore evidence that contradicts your hypothesis suggests that you're more interested in attacking Spector than in making a sensible argument.
Then why'd the clean sheets go up? The interesting thing is that in the turnaround period, not only did the Hammers quit getting shut out all the time (which was their early problem, fixed obviously by Tevez, et al), they started doing their own shutouts, none of which were started by Spector. 5 shutouts in 11 games after 5 in something like 30 to that date. There were 3 1-0 games in that last period, plus a 2-1 squeaker, and if they'd given up so much as a goal more in two of those four games, they'd have been the other side of relegation. You're neglecting the defense's role in making Tevez's goals stick. After all, if the winter pattern of 3-3, 2-2, and 4-3 games had continued, they'd have gone down no matter how many they scored. And while the Hammers held serve, Spector was relegated to the bench.
This thread has zero to do with speculation--it's all about trolling. My first post gave the originator of the thread all the time his half-assed argument deserved. As for your advice on how I should post, it's sweet of you to care so much but I'll make my own choices, thanks.