Same old dry arguments you'll take it to your grave no doubt - it's ok for people who suffer from Maradontinitus to proselytise their doxy!!!???...you have an intransigent opinion like the die hard Pele-ites...neither faction is going to say "fair cop guv'nor, your right", so your just blowing wind for the sake of it. It's impossible to determine who is the best ever in reality becos football needs to be dead before that distinction can be truly made and then it'll still boil down to opinion - I can think of no player who had more raw talent than Pele - when I see him play I have multiple orgasms!!!!!...The day I see a fresh pro - Maradona argument I'll stop watching soccer.
Let`s look at Pele`s stats from the Paulista state championship. Pele admirers will argue that these only prove his greatness, but disapprovers may argue that this tells something about the nature of that league. I`m not saying that it was substandard, but I guess the overall style in that league was characterized by very offensive football, and maybe the defenders in the clubs of that league were not of the highest possible standard. After all, Brazilian teams are not universally renown for their defensive skills. Here are his stats: Year/Matches/Goals 1957 29/36 1958 38/58 1959 32/45 1960 30/33 1961 26/47 1962 26/37 1963 19/22 1964 21/34 1965 30/49 1966 14/13 1967 18/17 1968 21/17 1969 25/26 1970 15/7 1971 19/8 1972 20/9 1973 19/11 1974 10/1 Look at the year 1958, I mean scoring 58 goals in 38 matches, that to me is a sign that it wasn`t really catenaccio that was played in that Paulista league in the late-50s/early-60s. Or 47 goals in 26 matches in 1961. I wonder how many goals later players like Maradona, Platini, Müller, Cruyff etc. had had scored if they had played in that Paulista league at that time. That Paulista league seemed to have had quite a couple of teams participating, judging from the highest number of games Pele played during one season - 38. Now a league that has many teams from a relatively small territory normally has some stinkers in there, that`s just logical, and judging from the numbers of goals Pele scored in that league, it may not be too false to assume that there were actually quite a couple of relatively bad sides participating in that Paulista championship, making it easier for the top teams to score many goals against them. That`s the most logical explanation. The bad teams in a possible Brazilian National championship surely were not as bad as the bad ones from the Paulista region. That`s why playing in a National league normally secures a higher standard of competition than something like a championship from just one relatively small region.
tpmazembe, Pity not just Pele, but Garrincha, Tostao, Rivelino, Jair et al.....all products of a substandard league. Miracle of miracles they managed to win anything outside of their country! Did I say that the Paulista championship was ‘substandard’? My point is that the style of play cultivated in that league most likely was of very offensive nature, and that attackers were possibly more talented at what they were doing than defenders. That´s actually the mirror of the Brazilian national team that won 3 WC cups that era. Excellent attack and midfield and a slightly less talented defense.
Let me now try to respont to tpmazembe`s well-thought out post about the number of games Pele, Maradona and Beckenbauer played. As I am not an expert on Maradona`s stats, I will have to concentrate on Beckenbauer solely. I happen to have some stats on the number of competitive and non-competitive games Bayern played from 1900 to 1982 in each season. Me concentrating on Beckenbauer does not mean that I want to say that Franz was a better footballer than Pele. It`s just that I happen to have some stats on Franz, but not on Maradona.
Gregoriak, thanks for your thoughtful post. I'm in midst of a bid response at work so will get back to you with a more detailed analysis. But a couple of things strike me off the top: 1)assumptions on games Becks played is off - no way did he play more games than Pele (especially with the ingoing assumption made on these boards that more "organized" European leagues are more humane in their demands on players). You are making assumptions of 70-80 club games per year, whereas the links provided are in the 35 gpy range. This one will just need some more detailed research. 2)Pele's importance to WC '70 team victory is being underestimated (not as concerned because that is an opinion which you are fully entitled to). I've already posted his net contributions to Selecao '70 (including +50% contribution to team scoring), and have plenty of articles and video documentation of his team members speaking to his key role - including the great pleasure of having met and spoken to Jairzinho on the beach in Rio. Also, didn't Pele win player of tournament (I maybe mistaken on this)? In fact my argument was that despite the career worth of games up to WC'70 at age 29, he had a stellar tournament and went on to compete at high levels well into '74.
tbmazembe, my Bayern stats are very detailed and from the book "Fussball Zauber In München" by Raimond Hinko from 1982. For example, here are the Bayern games and Germany games from the 1973/74 season: Date/Opponent/Score (f = friendly, c = competitive) 16-07-73 TSV Murnau 16-3 (f) 17-07-73 TSV Haar 15-1 (f) 18-07-73 FC St. Pauli 3-3 (f) 19-07-73 FV Nürtlingen 5-2 (f) 20-07-73 1. FC Kaiserslautern 1-3 (f) 21-07-73 Dukla Prague 1-2 (f) 23-07-73 SSV Ulm 1846 9-1 (f) 25-07-73 TSV 1860 Munich 3-0 (f) 26-07-73 SC Unterpfaffenhofen 6-3 (f) 27-07-73 ASV Cham 13-2 (f) 28-07-73 1. FC Amberg 12-2 (f) 29-07-73 TSV 1946 Bayerbach 17-2 (f) 31-07-73 Girondins Bordeaux 2-3 (f) 02-08-73 FC Nantes 4-0 (f) 04-08-73 FC Basel 4-2 (f) 05-08-73 Olympique Marseille 1-3 (f) 07-08-73 TSV Gräfelfing 11-2 (f) 11-08-73 Fortuna Düsseldorf 3-1 (c) 12-08-73 FC Hausham 25-2 (f) 14-08-73 Real Madrid 5-1 (f) 15-08-73 Atletico Bilbao 1-0 (f) 18-08-73 Fortuna Cologne 3-0 (c) 22-08-73 RW Essen 2-0 (c) 25-08-73 Hertha BSC Berlin 2-2 (c) 26-08-73 Atalanta Bergamo 2-0 (f) 28-08-73 CF Tarrassa 1-0 (f) 29-08-73 Ferencvarosi Tornaclub 4-2 (f) 01-09-73 Wuppertal SV 3-0 (c) 05-09-73 Soviet Union 1-0 (f) 08-09-73 FC Schalke 04 5-5 (c) 15-09-73 Werder Bremen 2-2 (c) 19-09-73 Atvidaberg FF 3-1 (c) 22-09-73 Hannover 96 1-3 (c) 29-09-73 Eintracht Frankfurt 2-2 (c) 03-10-73 Atvidaberg FF 1-3 (c) 06-10-73 1. FC Cologne 3-4 (c) 10-10-73 Austria 4-0 (f) 13-10-73 France 2-1 (f) 17-10-73 MSV Duisburg 4-2 (c) 20-10-73 1. FC Kaiserslautern 4-7 (c) 24-10-73 Dynamo Dresden 4-3 (c) 27-10-73 VFB Stuttgart 3-0 (c) 30-10-73 Lask/VOEST Linz 1-1 (f) 03-11-73 VFL Bochum 1-0 (c) 07-11-73 Dynamo Dresden 3-3 (c) 10-11-73 Hamburg SV 4-1 (c) 14-11-73 Scotland 1-1 (f) 17-11-73 Kickers Offenbach 2-2 (c) 24-11-73 Spain 2-1 (f) 01-12-73 MSV Duisburg 3-1 (c) 03-12-73 Tottenham Hotspur 2-2 (f) 08-12-73 Borussia Moenchengladbach 4-3 (c) 15-12-73 Werder Bremen 2-1 (c) 26-12-73 FC Bayern Hof 3-1 (f) 29-12-73 1. FC Nuremberg 3-2 (f) 30-12-73 1. FSV Mainz 05 5-2 (f) 05-01-74 Fortuna Düsseldorf 2-4 (c) 12-01-74 Fortuna Cologne 5-1 (c) 19-01-74 RW Essen 1-0 (c) 26-01-74 Hertha BSC Berlin 3-1 (c) 02-02-74 Wuppertal SV 4-1 (c) 03-02-74 SPVGG Erkenschwick 4-3 (f) 09-02-74 FC Schalke 04 5-1 (c) 16-02-74 Hannover 96 3-2 (c) 23-02-74 Spain 0-1 (f) 26-02-74 Italy 0-0 (f) 02-03-74 Werder Bremen 1-1 (c) 05-03-74 CSKA Sofia 4-1 (c) 09-03-74 Hannover 96 5-1 (c) 16-03-74 Eintracht Frankfurt 1-1 (c) 20-03-74 CSKA Sofia 1-2 (c) 23-03-74 1. FC Cologne 4-1 (c) 27-03-74 Scotland 2-1 (f) 30-03-74 MSV Duisburg 4-0 (c) 06-04-74 1. FC Kaiserslautern 1-1 (c) 10-04-74 Ujpest Dosza Budapest 1-1 (c) 13-04-74 Eintrach Frankfurt 2-3 (c) 17-04-74 Hungary 5-0 (f) 20-04-74 VFB Stuttgart 1-1 (c) 24-04-74 Ujpest Dosza Budapest 3-0 (c) 27-04-74 VFL Bochum 4-0 (c) 01-05-74 Sweden 1-0 (f) 04-05-74 Hamburg SV 5-0 (c) 11-05-74 Kickers Offenbach 1-0 (c) 15-05-74 Atletico Madrid 1-1 (c) 17-05-74 Atletico Madrid 4-0 (c) 18-05-74 Borussia Moenchengladbach 0-5 (c) 21-05-74 SV Lohhof 7-2 (f) 23-05-74 SV Waldperlach 4-1 (f) 25-05-74 TSV Wasserburg 10-3 (f) 26-05-74 FSV Bayerbach 11-2 (f) 28-05-74 FC Viktoria Munich 6-0 (f) 29-05-74 SF Gmund-Dürnbach 8-0 (f)* 14-06-74 Chile 1-0 (c) 18-06-74 Australia 3-0 (c) 22-06-74 East Germany 0-1 (c) 26-06-74 Yugoslavia 2-0 (c) 30-06-74 Sweden 4-2 (c) 03-07-74 Poland 1-0 (c) 07-07-74 Holland 2-1 (c) * six more Bayern games in June 74 without Beckenbauer taking part were not listed. That`s 100 games in the 73/74 season. If Beckenbauer missed 10%, it`s still 90 games. 55 competitive games, 45 friendlies (including games with the national team pre-WC). assumptions on games Becks played is off - no way did he play more games than Pele These are not assumptions, these are facts. 2)Pele's importance to WC '70 team victory is being underestimated Possible, but in relation to Beckenbauer`s importance to the West German team in 1974, he was less important to Brazil in 58 and 70 - in my opinion. Also, didn't Pele win player of tournament (I maybe mistaken on this)? I only know that a big Brazilian newspaper voted German midfielder Wolfgang Overath as the tournament`s best player.
According to these websites: http://www.fussballdaten.de/spieler/beckenbauerfranz/ http://www.holzlandfuechse.de/beckenbauer-franz.html Franz Beckenbauer's total appearances in competitive matches: Bundesliga: 424 FA Cup (DFB Pokal): 66 European Cups: 76 West Cermany Caps: 103 TOTAL: 669 I have found no stats on his time at Cosmos.
Using Gregoriaks language, "excellent post by Bauser" Thanks Bauser, I've been doing the same type of search, while trying to do the shiite that pays me! Interesting that Becks doesn’t have his own official site. The achievement of players of his caliber are in danger of becoming resigned to history bins – a good byproduct of our discussion has been to bring up his career and stats. I'm going to continue searching. Sent an email to German federation requesting facts. But it is interesting that 669 is very close to the 659 I deduced earlier from a couple of sources. His totals are not off by more than 20% of these. The Cosmos stats are located in my initial analysis post - He scored 23 goals in 105 games, and was the NASL MVP in 1977. http://www.sover.net/~spectrum/nasl/naslstar.html
Bundesliga: 424 FA Cup (DFB Pokal): 66 European Cups: 76 West Cermany Caps: 103 TOTAL: 669 Add to that: European Supercup: 1975: 2/0 1976: 2/0 Total: 4/0 Copa Europea-Sudamericana: 1976: 2/0 Total: 2/0 The Cosmos figure is actually 132 games, not 105, don`t forget the 1983 season he played for Cosmos (27/2). Thus the correct figures look like this: Bundesliga: 424 NASL: 132 FA Cup (DFB Pokal): 66 European Cups: 80 Copa Europea-Sudamericana: 2 West Cermany Caps: 103 TOTAL: 807 competitive games 1965-1983 This figure correspondends very well with the figure of approx. 1,000 games (competitive + non-competitive) he played from 1964-1977.
tpmazembe, I've read enough of your posts to know that you are a Beckenbauer fan. You must know what his opinion is of Pele. Its the total opposite of yours. What's Beck's excuse, is he uniformed? True about Beckenbauer, but as I said before, I have my own eyes to form my own verdict on a player. And btw, Johan Cruyff says that di Stéfano was the best ever, not Pelé... You are making assumptions of 70-80 club games per year, whereas the links provided are in the 35 gpy range The link you presented actually only listed the number of games Beckenbauer played in the Bundesliga each season. The maximum amount of games in one BL season is 34. Not included in that site`s Beckenbauer stats are German cup games, German caps, European Cup games and non-competitive games. To suggest Franz only had to play 35 games per season is bordering on the ridiculous. His average per season from 1964-77 is 77 games.
Still coming up with 800 games Gregoriak, no matter how many you add up. The caps include official friendlies as well, so doubt you'll be able to come up with +200 missing games. A full 25% more games is material, and doesn't just disappear from the records. Even if you did come up with more games, Pele played approximately 926 by the time WC '70 rolled around to Beck's career supposed 1000 (by your count, I don't buy it one bit until I see documented proof). My point still stands that in relative terms Pele had played a whole career by age 29. The greater point I was trying to make was that by 1970 the toll of Pele’s career had many in Brasil wondering if the master had reached the end of the line. History shows, and he proved with aplomb, he hadn’t. Gregoriak, if we are going to argue statistics I’d ask you to link your sources as I’ve tried to do. You mentioned IFFHS and Guiness WR on a previous post, but I’ve not seen any detailed player specific data on their sites. Kindly provide page specific links, and I’ll gladly review. Thanks for the heads-up on IFHHS though(http://www.iffhs.de). Its interesting to see how they ranked the best players of all-time by continent (item #20). They obviously were much more convinced of Pele’s achievements then you are. As for ease of goal scoring argument, this has come up and been de-bunked before. Early on in my participation on these boards I provided an analysis of his goal scoring average against European competition both for club and country, with the result being remarkably consistent (as was his career) ~ better than .8 goals per game! I’m not sure if we recovered all our posts from the attack on the boards, but when I have time I’ll try and find it to re-post. He scored goals against everyone at the same pace. I'm back to work. Cheers.
You are aware Beckenbauer's pronouncements / lament during the WC2002 WC that players such as Patrick Vieira were now subject to a riduculous amount of games. For a man who supposedly was playing close to 80 per year, isn't it a strange comment? Even Vieira hasn't played an average of 77 per year. Per my request, I'll find the quote and post it later as proof - just wanted to jot the thought down while it was in my mind.
------------------------------------- Let's use the data here provided by soccernova 78 to compute his goal scoring average in WC 58. Remember this is not the Paulista league. 6 goals in 4 matches= 1.5 goals /game Selecao international competition: All in all figures I looked up look very close to the ones provided in this thread 77 goals in 92 international games played with the selecao = .8 goals per game. To me, this is undisputable evidance that the high number of goals scored by Pele was not dependent on the type of competition whether it's the Paulista league or the WC competition or any other type of competition. The incredible amount of goals was only dependent on one man, Pele.
tpmazembe, Still coming up with 800 games Gregoriak, no matter how many you add up. Your sources came up with some 660 Beckenbauer games. That figure was clearly wrong, as the detailed list Bauser and I provided proved. You were off by some 150 games. That`s pretty rich coming from someone who likes to say that other people`s numbers are "off" or better, "way off". The caps include official friendlies as well, so doubt you'll be able to come up with +200 missing games. A full 25% more games is material, and doesn't just disappear from the records. Caps only make a minority of games played per season. Have you had a look at the 1973/74 games Bayern and W Germany played? 55 competitive and 45 friendlies. That`s 45% friendlies in one season. My source for the Bayern-games from 1900 to 1982 is from the book "Fussball Zauber in München" by Raimund Hinko (1982). Translation: "Football Magic in Munich". Hinko also wrote two books on Karl Heinz Rummenigge. You can search for his name in google. Unfortunately the book I use as my source is not in print anymore. This however does not change the fact that it listed all games Bayern played - be it competitive or friendly - from 1900 to 1982. Where do you think do I have the detailed info from 1973/74? It frustrates me that you seem to assume that I am making this information up. I could list every game from each season if I could be arsed to type it all. I did that for the 73/74 season - every games listed with date, opponent and score - without it having any effect on your opinion of the validity of my stats. I`ve looked up the number of games Bayern played each season from 1964 to 1977, plus the number of friendlies they played: Season/ total matches (friendlies) 1964/65 46 (14) 1965/66 76 (35) 1966/67 78 (30) 1967/68 73 (24) 1968/69 73 (34) 1969/70 79 (42) 1970/71 81 (30) 1971/72 86 (39) 1972/73 82 (32) 1973/74 88 (40) 1974/75 71 (23) 1975/76 74 (23) 1976/77 88 (36) TOTAL: 995 (402) This means that 40% of these games were friendlies, and 60% were competitive games (just Bayern, no W Germany). You can look at the games Bayern played in all detail in my above post for the 1973/74 season. Even if you did come up with more games, Pele played approximately 926 by the time WC '70 rolled around to Beck's career supposed 1000 By 1970, Pele`s career lasted 14 years. After 13 years of professional football - by the end of the 76/77 season - Franz`s two teams Bayern and W Germany had played 1,113 matches. Let`s assume Beckenbauer missed 113 of these, he ends up with roughly 1,000 matches in 13 years, contrary to Pele`s 926 in 14 years. Here`s the list of games Bayern and W Germany played during this time: Season/Games/(Bayern + NT) 1964/65 60 (60 + 0) 1965/66 90 (76 + 14) 1966/67 82 (78 + 4) 1967/68 79 (73 + 6) 1968/69 82 (73 + 8) 1969/70 90 (79 + 11) 1970/71 91 (81 + 10) 1971/72 95 (86 + 9) 1972/73 88 (82 + 6) 1973/74 105 (88 + 17) 1974/75 77 (71 + 6) 1975/76 83 (74 + 9) 1976/77 91 (88 + 3) I have information about each of these games, be it date, opponent, score, competitive or friendly. (by your count, I don't buy it one bit until I see documented proof). Again, I am irritated that you think I`m making these Bayern games up. Now do you really think I have to resort to outright lying to counter your argumentation? 'My count' - as you put it - is in fact the actual number of games Bayern played per season. This is fact, not fiction, please believe me. I think the internet has spoilt you, as you seem to believe that something is not valid as long as it cannot be found somewhere in the net. I have tried to explain to you why your original assertion, that Franz played 35 games per season roughly - is wrong. That number from the site you linked just listed his games per season in the Bundesliga. Not counting any European Cup games, German Cup games, German Caps and friendlies of all sorts. My point still stands that in relative terms Pele had played a whole career by age 29. Good point. But the same can be said of Beckenbauer, roughly 840 games by the age of 29. It`s roughly 100 games less, but remember, you originally claimed him to have played 660 games to the end of his career, ommitting all non-competitve games and NASL games. Gregoriak, if we are going to argue statistics I'd ask you to link your sources as I've tried to do. You mentioned IFFHS and Guiness WR on a previous post, but I've not seen any detailed player specific data on their sites. Kindly provide page specific links, and I'll gladly review. I have my info not from their sites, but from books they published. If you go to the IFFHS main page, click on English, and then click on link No. 17 with the title "The World's most successful Top Division Goal Scorers of all time". That`s the book I have used for my Pele stats. The Guinness Book I used is currently not available at amazon. It is by Guy Oliver and from 1992. Here`s the link to amazon: http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos...7371/sr=1-8/ref=sr_1_0_8/202-3793504-6036663. That`s the book where I got Pele`s 77 goals for Brazil from. As for ease of goal scoring argument, this has come up and been de-bunked before. Early on in my participation on these boards I provided an analysis of his goal scoring average against European competition both for club and country, with the result being remarkably consistent (as was his career) ~ better than .8 goals per game! I'm not sure if we recovered all our posts from the attack on the boards, but when I have time I'll try and find it to re-post. He scored goals against everyone at the same pace. Now, I`m not saying that he was a bad goal scorer, or that he only was able to score against weak opposition. I brought up the goal scoring argument because someone mentioned the over 1,000 goals Pele scored, as to prove his superiority by that. I just wanted to point out that the majority of goals he scored are from the Paulista state championship, ca. 450, and my point was that in that championship, Santos possibly faced not a small number of weak opponents, which made it easier for him to score many goals in that state championship. Just look at his 1961 record: 47 goals in 26 games… You are aware Beckenbauer's pronouncements / lament during the WC2002 WC that players such as Patrick Vieira were now subject to a riduculous amount of games. For a man who supposedly was playing close to 80 per year, isn't it a strange comment? Even Vieira hasn't played an average of 77 per year. But you know the difference between friendlies and competitive games? Beckenbauer was referring to the amount of competitive games Viera had to play that season (mostly due to excessive CL tournament). The 77 average games Beckenbauer participated in per season also include friendlies. As I have shown above, 40% of Bayern games each season were friendlies. This leaves 46 competitive games per season for Franz. Thanks for the heads-up on IFHHS though(http://www.iffhs.de). Its interesting to see how they ranked the best players of all-time by continent (item #20). They obviously were much more convinced of Pele’s achievements then you are Duh! You cannot seriously expect them to not list Pele at No. 1. After all, he was the man that won three WCs and that scored over 1,000 goals. It`s the football establishment (media, fifa, etc.) that will always say that Pele is the best ever, simply because of his three WC wins, the fact that he played an outstanding tournament at the age of 17 and that he scored over 1,000 goals.
Look at Pele`s average goal scoring in the Paulista championship from 58-62: 1958 1.5 goals per match. 1959 1.4 1960 1.1 1961 1.8 1962 1.4 Average 1958-62: 1.44 goals per match during his heyday. His average in the World Cup was 0.86 (1958-1970). His NT average 1956-1971 was 0.8. Compare his 1958 WC average with that of Fontaine: 2.2 goals per match. It was definitely a lot easier to score goals in the 1950s/early 1960s than in the later decades. Especially in a Brazilian state championship like the Paulista league, where most likely a very offensive style of play was cultivated at that time. And also, I`d like to know why Pele, despite winning the Paulista league with Santos 10 times (1958, 60, 61, 62, 64, 65, 67, 68, 69, 73), 'only' won 2 Copa Libertadores with Santos (1962, 63)? Where was Santos in the mid- to late-1960s in the Copa Libertadores?
Gregoriak, if you are going to compare averages in a narrow window like from 58-62 in the Paulista league than you should do the same with international competition, but do not pull numbers from his best years and compare them to his whole career. Of course, they are going to be a lot better. If you want to stick with the time frame of 58-62 that's fine, so than we should also compare this same time frame with international competition. So, here are the #'s for world cup 58 and 62 If we combine WC's 58 & 62 we have: 7 goals scored in 5 games =1.4 goals /game This is against the best competition the world could provide and we come up with the same average as the Paulista championship. Also, you have to take in consideration that the guy was hurt during both WC's. You should also take into consideration that we are comparing a state league vs. the best in the world and that naturally the level of play for the state competition should be lower but as you can see the results are the same. If we continue to stick with these same time frame(58-62), in 59 Pele won top goal scorer in Copa America with 9 goals in the tournament and as you indicated Pele won Copa Libertadores in 62. So, there is nothing wrong with your #'s but you should compare #'s within that same time frame. As you indicated these were his best years.
To take the spotlight away from the Beckenbauer v Pele most appearances contest... Was 1300 matches really an amazing total during those days? I did a check-up on some random players. First Puskas. Various sources claim he played 1300 too and scored over 1000 goals including 83 in 84 matches for Hungary (world record). Bobby Charlton played over 900 competitive matches. With friendlies his career total would fly pass 1000. Wolfgang Overath made 765 competitive matches for FC Cologne. He spent a few seasons with SV Siegburg before that and played 81 times for West Germany. He retired at 34. Including friendlies he would easily pass 1000 too.
Here are the results for Copa America 1959 in which Pele was top goal scorer: 9 goals in 6 games=1.5 goals/ game now let's combine totals of the data we have so far for international competition for Pele in (58-62). We have: 7 goals in 5 games for WC's 58 & 62 9 goals in 6 games for Copa America in 59 That gives us: 16 goals in 11 games played =1.45 goals/game. Conclusion: It doesn't matter what the competition is, whether is the Paulista league or the best in the world or the best in South America, Pele continues to score goals at an incredible pace in the 58-62 time frame.
Various great Santos players retired and left Pele the lone star in an otherwise mediocre club. In a way similar to what happened with Maradona in Napoli which was never anything before or after Maradona.
It's not really the same as the situation at Napoli. Even when Napoli were successfull, there was only Maradona was considered a great player. Careca was a very dangerous striker, Carnevale pretty good and Ferrara has had a good long career (but just a youngster at Napoli). Other than these the players were mediocre at best (in the overall scheme of things).
OK. I read a newspaper column where author said that when he was still a boy, he was so skinny at the time that the wife of the club president of Santos suggested that he took vitamins before he play for the club. Then, they say that the vitamins helped him because he ran on the field with a burst of energy. They gave him the nickname of "Gasolina" because of that. Is that story true?
Will a TV company somewhere on earth please commission a programme that compares the best of Pele' and Maradona! The eyes can't be decieved only the mind!
I never thougth the day will come of which so many fan knew south american soccer history. Damn the internet and FSW!!!! Maradona Rules!!!!