I know this may seem like a silly question, but what was it exactly that made Pele arguably the gteatest player ever? I'm not trying to start a flame war or anything, and I don't doubt that Pele was the greatest (everything I read about him indicates that he was), but having never seen him play, I can't visualize what made him great. I'm a relative newbie to football and I've only been following the EPL for the past two years, so my image of what makes a great footballer is somewhat tied to the English game. I don't know if that means much, but I thought I'd mention it. Was Pele simply a terrific scorer, did he have a more complete game, or was it something else beyond even all that. If anyone was lucky enough to see Pele play in the 60s and 70s, please feel free to add something to the discussion. Again, I'm not arguing that Pele wasn't great (or even the greatest); I just want to know what made him so.
I have only seen Pele on video, and have only watched a few full games of his but to my mind he was the greatest ever. Just some of his attributes were his dribbling, strength, speed, touch, he was a wonderful header of the ball, and he had a vision beyond that of any player I have seen. I would recommend that you try and get hold of some videos of him. I think the boys from brazil should be the easiest to get, and is a wonderful showcase of his international career. I now haveto go and watch the videos myself, after just talking about it.
Pele was also the most complete player to ever play football. Without a weakness it's hard to pinpoint a flaw to his game. Always did the right thing ..be it score or set up his team-mates..always made the perfect choices in any given situation...basically Pele was the consumate footballer whose lack of a handicap made him almost unplayable. Not as good a dribbler as a Maradona, Garrincha or Ronaldo..but good enough to beat any defender in front of him. And unlike Maradona and Garrincha Pele was absolutely ambidextrous and because of that defenders couldn't try and push him onto a weaker foot. You also have to consider that Pele was not an out and out striker yet scored a ridiculous amount of goals - he was the true definition of the number 10 shirt and as such he's your ultimate team player. Another point to mention is that Pele wasn't selfish the goals were just a by-product of his brilliance..he didn't go onto the pitch fiending for goals like a Van Nistlerooy he just went on with the intention of contributing to his team's victory. Right that's enough ass-kissing from me...hope you get the picture tho..like comme said try and fish out as much footage of him as you can so you can make your own evaluation. Some value the more spectacular Maradona as the best ever which is of course debateable. But what cannot be debated is that Pele was the most complete player ever...if i try to give you a modern equivalent of Pele it'd go something like: Raul, Romario, VNR, Zidane, Henry, Inzaghi, Ballack all rolled into one player lol @_@
...not to mention that Pele wasn't a bad goalkeeper either. He made four appearances in goal in his professional career, and did not allow a goal.
This about sums it up: "he had a vision beyond that of any player I have seen" He'd have an advantage out there in any era just because he's so intelligent when it comes to soccer.
I think it was Junior who said mastery of the balls trajectory represents the ultimate level a player can attain. We all seen the run over the ball in 1970 but here's a description of a Pele move which may serve to illurstrate another example of mastery of the ball's trajectory (quoted from a post by Treealiano):- "Pele working in the center of the pitch,with one teammate on either of him. The guy on the right had the ball and they were starting a counterattack against 4 defenders. The guy on the right passes to O Re, who doesn't even touch the ball, just lets it sort of roll along side him for a second and does his little Denilson triple step over thing (although it should be Denilson does his little Pele stepover...) around the ball and just totally undressed 2 defenders... Then he let it continue on it's own where it was collected by his other teammate on the left... who makes 2 touches and passes back to Pele who did the same exact thing as he did before doesn't touch the ball step over move, the keeper follows Pele towards the left goalpost, and he didn't have the ball, it was in the back of the netfromthe pass from the other guy." Add that sort of skill to intelligence and vision and you've one hell of a player.
The previous posters all have it right. lagalaxy, you might be familiar of the concept of the 5 Tool player in baseball. Players are graded on Fielding, Arm Strength, Batting for Power, Batting for Average, Running on scale from 1-5. Very few players in the history of the game were rated as 5 Tool players. I think Willie Mays, Mickie Mantle, and maybe Ken Griffey Jr are some of the few. Even a guy like DiMaggio, the legendary player he was, did not max out on all tools (faring poorly on Arm Strength). Five Toolers are freaks of nature. So back to Pele. As Dark Savante alludes to, he is the footballing equivalent of the 5 Tool player. Superior rating at every aspect of the game – ball control, passing, heading, shooting with left, shooting with right, athleticism, speed, strength, stamina. No weakness. Yeah, some may be marginally better at one aspect or the other, but no one with a combined package quite like his. Then you add the intangibles that can only be measured during the course of a career of matches – intelligence, timing, awareness, anticipation, playing with the collective, and heart. He exhibited superior traits in all of these characteristics as well. And, he exhibited those traits, especially playing within the collective, at an extremely early age. Then there’s impact. Taking an unknown team from the outskirts of S.Paulo and turning them into one of the great clubs sides of all time. The Santos name is still probably the most recognized Brasilian club brand worldwide to this day despite little success since his retirement (until recently) and absolutely no marketing. Impacting the way games are officiated. Red and yellow card laws, now so familiar, owe part of their genesis to the treatment he received in WC ’66. Impacting the popularity of the sport worldwide. Santos excursions throughout the four corners of the earth are legendary. When Pele came into town in many places on this globe, holidays were issued so people could watch the games. Some would have you think this is folklore, its not. Its documented, and enough people are alive today who were witness to this, including my parents who drove 200 km to see him play in Kinshasa in ’68 or so. Of course his impact on US soccer is well documented. The number 10 shirt was given its mystique by him. Others have continued the tradition, but the genesis is quite clear. The imagination, balls, and creativity to try stuff in big games - like the halfline shot (now widely attempted) and the around the goalie dummy in WC 70 - are items that only the greats dare improvise. Finally, you look at team and individual accomplishments - silverware, awards won and the like. The CV is out of this world. There is not one competition that he competed for on a consistent basis that he did not win (some erroneously say he never won the Brasiliero, which didn’t start until ’71 or so, failing to understand that he lifted the Taca Brasil, the prior recognized Brasilian championship, 5 times). Its hard to point to any player who has a stronger resume for both club and country. The goal tally, and goal average domestically AND internationally are otherworldly for a ponte-de-lance. Goals scored in all manner of ways, simple, spectacular, coast-to-coast, headers, free-kicks, bicycle kicks, with power, with finesse, from one-two’s, going past, through, around, over (lobbing) defenders….more goals from headers than most have in a whole career! And if assists had been counted, he’d have double the number. There have been many magical players in this wonderful sport, and everyone has their favorites. But no player has brought all of this - tools, intangibles, impact, team and individual awards - to the table all at such a level. That’s why he’s the benchmark.
I bet lagalaxyfan got more than he bargained for with the replies We should all get together and write a book about Pele lol. I noticed you said you've only been watching football for 2yrs of the EPL so maybe some of the stuff being said about Pele will sound a bit farfetched or ridiculous to you but these people are being as objective towards Pele as possible..sounds crazy doesn't it ^^
One of the most memorable world cups was Mexico 70. I was just a young kid. When I saw Pele and his team play against Chekoslovakia I fell in love with soccer. I saw the brute force of the Chekoslovakians trying to outrun and muscle their way through the Brazilian defense. The Brazilians were hardly able to keep up with them as best they could. The Brazilians for the first 10 to 15 minutes did not even pass the halfway mark. After being down 1-0, Pele and company transcended the game. It was more than a mere game, it was like a form of art the way the Brazilians made their one touch passes. The way they played their set plays. At one point a Brazilian player inbounded the ball from about two thirds of the field on the offensive side towards Pele.Now when the ball is inbounded it naturally takes takes on a parabola type of trajectory making it difficult to one pass it to another teammate. Pele just barely one touched the ball resulting in a smooth pass rolling on the field. Another player came in striking the ball full force. The ball hit the side bar and went out of play, now this all happened so quickly that no one had a chance to react. The Chekoslovakian keeper just stood still and never knew what happened. Brazil went on to win by the score of 4-1. A day where art and technique overcame brute force.
Even when he doesn't score, he's part of legend. Many feel Gordon Banks' sprawling save of a Pele header in WC '70 to be the greatest save of all time.
And Moore's tackle of the same game. If that was on pele, I can't remember as I've been drinking for a few hours.
In the 1970 WC he had many of those memorable non-goals. Like the shot from midfield that just missed...or the goal kick that he 1st touched it straight back to the goalie.....or the dummy on the Uruguayan goalie that just missed the goal.... Pele's missed goals were more beautiful than most goals scored by others.
I think Maradona was better than Pele. Pele never proved himself in Europe. Not to say Santos wasn't incredible back then, but still, Maradona was awesome at Barca and Napoli, meaning he cut it both internationally and domestically at the top level. I think Ronaldo is better as well, and if he wasn't constantly injured he would've proved it by now.
Neither did Tostao, Rivelino, Garrincha. Obviously their accomplishment should be discounted as well. And why exactly did he have to? There's absolutely no comparison between the talent drain occuring today with what was going on back then. When Brasil won 3 of 4 WCs between '58-'70 without fielding a single player plying their trade in Europe, how on earth could anyone claim european superiority at the league level? No one back then did. If all the Brasilians playing in Europe today came back home, any doubts that the Brasilian league would be at least on par with La Liga or Seria A?
LoL Dammit T. you beat me to it. In the era that Pele played it's highly debateable that Europe was better than South America becuase nearly all it's talent was still playing in the home leagues. And make no mistake..even now if you removed the South Americans from Europe the quality of the leagues would fall like a Submarine.
Have you not seen Pele's domestic record ?? It puts Maradonas in the shade by some margin. Regarding Ronaldo, I don't think his career will have the longevity needed to match Pele's achievements..plus Ronaldo and Pele aren't really comparable - different position's totally different styles and also Ronaldo is only a threat with the ball at his feet ...Pele was a threat wherever the ball was. But regarding this issue, everyone's intitled to their opinion and like i said previously there are many who believe Maradona was the best ever..that's fair enough - just make sure you've done you're homework before making such statements
The goal kick that he 1st touched right back and the goalie had to make an incredible save. Now ,how did he ever do that. He did not stop the ball and then kick it right back. Pele had to time it perfectly and that was a bullet he shot in a straight line, not right at the goalie,but the goalie had to dive desperately to make the save. Now that's talent. Somebody might argue, but he did not score. That's right but it's the ingenuity to try what nobody has ever done before. Before him, no one had tried a shot from midfield. It's like everybody else was in the indusrial revolution and Pele was already in the computer age. Pele was an innovator as where everybody else may just exceed at what has been done before.
Thanks for the comparison. Being a Yank, I am very familiar with the "5-tool" label used in baseball. What I want to know is, who are the "5-tool" players of today in football? Zidane? Beckham? Roberto Carlos? Just wondering what you guys think.
So far this thread has been exactly what I wanted: a thoughtful, honest account of what made Pele so great. Thanks for all the replies and please keep them coming.
See, that's how great Pele was. Even when he wasn't involved in a play, people remember him for being a part of it. Just to clarify, Pele never played in Europe because when he was 22, Brazilian congress declared him a "non-exportable national treasure" and banned him from playing for a club outside Europe. This status was lifted after he retired from the national team, allowing him to sign with NASL's New York Cosmos.
Everyone's forgetting also how much of a dirty bastard he could be at times. I've seen more than a couple of clips of him giving the full elbow treatment on an opposing player's face. But nonetheless, a decent player.
There isn't really any. At a stretch you're calling on people like: Zidane RVN Shevchenko But such players are not an accurate representation. Zidane doesn't score enough..RVN doesn't assist enough nor does Shevchenko. The player would need to 1) be fully ambidextrous (Ronaldo, Sheva, Zidane) 2) excellent in the air (Ballack, Zidane(reallly stretching it here lol but he did score two headed goals in a world cup final) erm Crespo, Sheva but these people aren't the personification of excellent in the air Pele was better in the air than Bierhoff! if that helps you any? 3) accurate Long Distance Shooting 25-40 yarders ( Sheva, VNR, Shearer, Batistuta, JFH Ronaldo at a stretch 4) High level dribbling skills (Zidane, Ronaldinho, Ronaldo) 5) F.A.S.T (Henry, Bellamy, R Carlos, Rommedahl, Babangida, fully fit Ronaldo) i don't even feel that giving Pele 5 tools does him justice i'll add the other attributes I feel should be included 6) Volleying SKills (Inc Overhead kicks and acrobatics) (Rivaldo, Crespo, Marco Van Basten) 7) Box Guile/Intelligence/Positioning (Raul, Inzaghi, RVN, Owen) 8) Pitch/FIeld PErception, Vision/ Awareness (Zidane, Aimar, Diego, ROnaldinho, Beckham, at times i guess) 9) Pinpoint accurate passes and perfectly weighted thru balls (Zidane, Rui Costa, Veron at times) 10) Extreme Stamina ( R Carlos, Cafu, Thuram, Roy Keane) I think by now you should see how hard it is to be a complete player! YOu're doing well if you've got 3 or 4 of this list in your bag. Of the list of players you mentioned R Carlos and Beckham can be struck off immediately both are hugely one footed, neither can head the ball, neither has high level dribbling skills If i had to choose the most complete player i'd have to go with Zidane although he isn't prolific enough to be labelled complete. I'm sure others will add their opinions your question also.