Chirac Seeks Law Banning Head Scarves PARIS - French President Jacques Chirac asked parliament on Wednesday for a law banning Islamic head scarves and other religious insignia in public schools, a move that aims at shoring up the nation's secular tradition, despite cries that it will stigmatize France's 5 million Muslims. [edit: please provide a link and a portion of the article. Copyright © 2003 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. The information contained in the AP News report may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed without the prior written authority of The Associated Press. Copyright © 2003 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved.]
Re: Re: Those Wacky French..Again Give me a religious oligarchy any day of the week! I figured neocons would be happy to see the French telling them Ay-rabs to get the towels off their heads.
Glass Houses: More than just a Billy Joel album He is. That doesn't necessarily mean that others aren't. And it's not like we don't have our own problems regarding this same issue. I seem to recall a little fracas over the Ten Commandments recently and I also have in mind the periodic efforts to have Creationism taught as science in public schools. See, this is why some Americans hate the French. We're too much alike.
Re: Re: Re: Those Wacky French..Again I am but not for the reason you think. The reason I am happy is that it shows what a complete idiot Jacques Chirac is. Or course, this is so typically French. Let's make a really big hubub out of something that no one was really worried about, and is pretty insignficant. Instead of leaving well enough alone, let's invest something with way more significance and "danger" than it really has. That we do this with the subtext of protecting the Frenchness (re: the real translation of "secularism") of our society is something, of course, that makes it all the more appealing. Remember, too, this is the country/government that could care less if its population smokes itself to death, but is all a flutter about head gear. What a country.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Those Wacky French..Again http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3208314.stm http://www.no-smoking.org/oct03/10-17-03-4.html http://www.info-france-usa.org/publi/nff/0310/soc.htm http://www.guardian.co.uk/france/story/0,11882,1072079,00.html
Re: Re: Re: Re: Those Wacky French..Again I consider myself an atheïst who respects all religions, but I also think a persons religion (of lack thereof) is a private matter and should be kept out of schools as much as possible. But I think what has been passed in France is an excessive response. The question that has to be asked is in how far the head scarf is really a truely religious symbol. It is a part of the Muslim tradition, but is not a religious symbol in itselfs, not like, let's say, the cross or the star of David.
I can see the headline now: CHIRAC FAILS TO GET SUPPORT TO BAN HEAD SCARVES Frustrated, declares "I give up!"
I really do hope that France follows through with the ban. It is not because of any religious or personal issue I have. Rather, it is an issue of curiosity to see if the ban will work. Will it promote a secular government, or will it promote religious militants? The real question is if a secular government can exist in a religious world. I see this as an "experiment" to answer that question. DJPoopy -- Zing!! I LMAO and almost spilled Coke all over my keyboard. That was the post that made my day.
This is truly a bad idea. While I agree with the "secularism is a great success" sentiment, it can't be forced on people in this manner. Also, the idea that the head scarf is a symbol of Islam in the manner of a large crucifix is simply false. Many Muslim women do not wear the veil, and for those that do, it is strictly their (or their family's) interpretation of the Koran's injunction for women to be "modest" in their dress, not showing "too much." Thus is a CULTURAL decision, not specifically a religious one. So basically, France would be banning families from deciding what is an appropriate level of modesty for their own children. Banning them from basing this judgment on their own cultural background (moreso than religious). In any case, this would seem to lead to a Soviet-style government crackdown on religion: how long before French Jewish/Muslim men can't have beards? By the way, the constant attention paid to the whole veiling issue, especially by Western feminists, is interesting. When you think about it, a veil is just a slight extension of the same type of modesty that every society (at least every Western one) believes in. I mean, French, Irish, and American parents don't want their daughters running off to high school with their chests "unveiled," do they? Why not? They let their boys run off to the basketball courts that way. So another culture agrees in principle, and takes it a step further, to include slightly (in the case of mere head scarves anyway) more coverage. I'd thik Western feminists have better things to worry about.
Oh, I don't know. "In God We Trust", "One Nation, Under God", and the Religious Right aside the U.S. government's done a half-decent job of remaining relatively secular in a nominally religious world as have many others of more recent origin. If anyone thinks that the USA is free from having to grapple with trying to fit in a radical religious group into its public school system, go ask an Amishman for his thoughts on the topic. Even if this passes, France won't be the only country with laws limiting what kids can wear in schools. A while back, I remember several conservative commentators supporting the idea of uniforms in our public schools, supposedly as a way of instilling more discipline in our kids. And then, while not a religious matter, there was the kid in Georgia who got hisself suspended from school for wearing a Pepsi t-shirt on "Coca-Cola Day", a story that is incredibly sad on many levels. Finally, look at some of the more loopy ordinances designed to combat "gang clothes" in public schools. Like I said before, France and America are in many ways extremely alike. --- To DoctorJones24, All secular, multicultural societies in some way limit families from deciding what is an appropriate level of modesty for their own children. My guess is that Britain is no different. Or are British schoolgirls are allowed to attend class clad only in lingerie with parental approval? Where Chirac screwed up was in being honest about his intentions. If he'd found some secular "public safety" fig leaf to hide behind ("gangs" would do nicely) like American politicians do, rather than openly admitting that the ordinance was primarily anti-religious, he'd probably have gotten away with it or at least it would not have stirred up so much commentary. My guess is, though, that Chirac may just be a decent negotiator who has taken an extreme position to have room to "give" some to get what he really wants. Or he's a dumbass who has committed a tactical blunder of Bushian proportions.
Hence, my suspicion that this is a ploy. However, for the sake of looking at all angles, if he was indeed serious about this, I can't call it terribly smart. Even disregarding the justice of it, it's politically dumb as well. I can understand a legit reasonable call for the preservation of secular government in a multi-religious society. After all, that benefits all religions. But why go out of your way to antagonize almost all religious groups and give them a reason to work against you rather than with you, which is exactly what he may have done by choosing to frame the entire issue as he has? I mean, if I can sit here and think of much better way of handling this in a few seconds... Anyway, I suspect Chirac sees this as a test case for a more moderate proposal or is using it as a shot across the bows of moderate Muslims to get them to crack down on the militants in their midst lest they bring worse things down on their heads. We'll see.
I think the main thing is to install basic respect for women into some Muslim youths. I'm a liberal, but even I can't ignore the fact that a lot of time I see young Muslim men harrassing young women who are behaving or dressing innapropriatly according to their views. Also the view that a woman who shows a little too much skin for their liking is asking to be harrassed by men is something that is still a firm belief with some young Muslims. Hell, it has even happened to my gf once, being followed for a while and having obscenities shouted at her. I guess the reason the veil ticks off so many people is that a lot of people see it as a way to keep Muslim women down and as a symbol of the apparent sexism in Muslim traditions.
Secularism is the state religion in France since 1792. French society has a strong centralising tendency, whereby the nation as a whole is put above particular interests. This implies conformanty within society-hence no headscarves. This is also part of the reason why Trade Unions are always on strike, as they are not really in with the political process like British Trade Unions. With no link to the state structure, they are more militant.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Those Wacky French..Again Mike, thanks for those links. I was in France a couple years ago (hey, it's a goofy country but a great place to visit!), and I didn't notice any of this anti-smoking stuff going on. But the tabacs always seemed to be occupied! I love this bit in particular... With astounding optimism, the health minister, Jean-Francois Mattei, announced earlier this spring that his ultimate aim was to see France become a country without any smokers. Can you imagine the delusional fantasy land of Chirac's ministerial meetings? de Villepin chimes in, and then this guy... No wonder the culture loves Jerry Lewis....
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Those Wacky French..Again That is pretty funny...send it along to Pat Robertson with my best wishes!
I was gonna point this out. Thank you, altho it's sad it took one of the Brits to demonstrate some knowledge of history. There's a reason the French are so freaky about this stuff; before the Revolution, the church supported the state's oppression of the people. And it's the reason why I'm such a hardliner in favor of separation of church and state here. BECAUSE IT STRENGHTENS THE CHURCH!!! I don't believe it's a coincidence that the US, of all the major western democratic capitalist nations, is BOTH the most religious AND the nation that was founded with church and state separate.
secular bling bling would be OK. But then again, I'd pity the fool who tries to tell Mr T to remove his religious jewelry when he visitys French schools.