Things we See

Discussion in 'Referee' started by DefRef, Jun 17, 2019.

  1. soccerref69420

    soccerref69420 Member+

    President of the Antonio Miguel Mateu Lahoz fan cub
    Mar 14, 2020
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea DPR
    Yesterday was the first time I think I have ever wanted a specific team to win due to a horrible referee call.

    I was AR2 on a U11 state cup knockout game with a center who I know, but he is meh as a ref, he does HS and all that. Team was up 2-1 with about a minute to go. Leading keeper makes a save and comes up to punt it away, and he blows the whistle. He says she held the ball outside the box while punting, despite him being at midfield and the experienced AR1 not raising her flag. Where he placed the ball for the FK, he didn't even put it fully outside the box. The FK leads to a save but the trailing team gets it and scores. Game goes to extra time plus penalties and the leading team ended up winning, so in the end everything worked out

    The other AR and I were just so pissed. She says the ball left the hand before the punt and the keeper's foot was outside the box when kicked, he says he saw her foot planted outside the box. It wasn't even his call to make, the AR standing on the 18 has that handball call. I wasn't about to get into an argument with him there, but man. It was just a silly U11 game, but I haven't felt that way about a fellow referee's call in a long time. The team's coach who was aggrieved wasn't even upset when he asked before extra time what happened, just "oh she stepped out? Ok". I was way more pissed than he was. It just shows how much even we don't want to screw teams over from a bad call, that some of us do care.
     
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  2. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    Chelsea
    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Des Moines, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Those are the tough ones. I remember a couple of years ago I had a center call an offside from the center line while I was the lead AR. I was dead in line with the 2LD about 15 yards from the goal line, and I NAILED the onside call. It didn't make a difference in the game as there was 3 minutes left and the attacking team was up three goals, but I made a point to talk with the center after the match.

    Here's how I handled it. I first asked the center what he saw. I didn't want to get into an argument, so I wanted to get his side of the story. He said he saw the attacker ahead of the 2LD. I then asked if he took a look at me to see what I had. He said he did, but he thought that the attacker was still offside.

    Here is where I got more direct, but in a professional manner. "(Referee), we've worked together before. You know you can trust me as your AR. I take a great deal of pride in doing a good job and being there to assist you. That being said, that's my call. If I make a mistake on it, that's on me. But I'm able to sell that call a lot more than you can sell an offside call from your position. You need to let me assist you more on a play like that."

    The same type of thing could have happened here. Perhaps asking the referee a question about whether the keeper can release the ball inside the area and kick it outside the area would be a good question. You want the center to know that he needs to trust his ARs a lot more than that, but to do it in a constructive way.
     
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  3. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    This is someone who just flat out doesn't understand punting and assumes that if the plant foot is outside the PA, the GK must have carried the ball outside, assuming incorrectly that a GK doesn't release the ball before planting. (I had an AR that I overruled (twice!) from the center when he flagged the GK for handling, who told me he had been told by someone that he should watch the plant foot to make the call. :eek::mad:)
     
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  4. davidjd

    davidjd Member+

    Jun 30, 2000
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Back in the day the keeper for my HS team would drop kick from the top of the area. He'd be running up and would flip the ball out in front of him a 3 yards. It was not uncommon for his foot to make contact at the top of arc or more. Only once I recall him be called for it and that was b/c he actually did release the ball too late outside the area. I'm pretty sure it bugged the hell out of the referees (2 man system) who had that one last thing to watch every time the entire defense was pushed up.
     
  5. Dayton Ref

    Dayton Ref Member+

    May 3, 2012
    Houston, TX
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    I've had a few of these types of conversations. Usually they would happen when I'd work the occasional youth game. I only had the talk with refs that I had previous experience with except one whom was clearly 'with it' and I could tell I'd be working with him on adult games soon. It comes from working with the mediocrity of every day refs that you don't trust. It usually manifested in never looking for input from the AR.
    Part of my pre-game when going back to reffing adults after being in HS season was, "If I'm not looking at you enough during dead balls, say my name and point at yourself." By that time I had enough self awareness that it wasn't a problem anymore, but I still said it to remind myself.
     
  6. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    Chelsea
    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Des Moines, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #156 RefIADad, Dec 5, 2022
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2022
    And this is why whenever I work a youth game with less experienced ARs, I tell them they are part of the team and I'm trusting them. If I just have to overrule someone to keep the game under control, I'll do it. Other than that, I'm going to trust my ARs if they are working hard and making every effort to do the right thing. Sure, there may be a time a coach gets upset over an offside call and asks me to overrule it. I'll just tell the coach that AR has a better angle on the 2LD than either one of us have. Fortunately, at least in my area and state most coaches know I'm not going to toss my ARs under the bus.
     
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  7. AremRed

    AremRed Member+

    Sep 23, 2013
    Did you consider stopping the game, briefly telling the kid what he did wrong, and giving him a drop ball to try again? Given that they were getting killed that may have been the better approach.
     
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  8. voiceoflg

    voiceoflg Member+

    Dec 8, 2005
    First half, AR2 had a keeper toss the ball from inside the PA and punt it from outside the PA. Spectators behind him were complaining when he raised his flag. At halftime he told me to watch out for it. I asked him if the keeper released the ball before the ball crossed the PA line. He confirmed it did. The center reminded him "the offense is called handling, not footing." Second half the ball never touched the keeper's hands outside of the PA. My flag never came up for that.
     
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  9. MJ91

    MJ91 Member

    United States
    Jan 14, 2019
    When AR1 in HS, i often get a coach chirping, "Watch for their keeper crossing their line." literally right after having watched for exactly that! "I am, coach. He's been legal every time, coach..."
     
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  10. davidjd

    davidjd Member+

    Jun 30, 2000
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I guess, "Hey, GREAT idea. Why didn't I think of that?", wouldn't be an appropriate response out loud.
     
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  11. mathguy ref

    mathguy ref Member+

    Nov 15, 2016
    TX
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    I almost had this a couple of weeks ago in an older age. To be fair, until we started doing dropped balls for injury stoppages or getting hit I don’t think I ever dropped a ball in a match.
     
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  12. Pelican86

    Pelican86 Member

    United States
    Jun 13, 2019
    Finally broke my streak of consecutive HS games with at least one bad throw-in (it ended after 13 games). Ironically enough it was in an evenly-matched game between two weak teams (they weren't the worst teams I've seen this season, but the winning team was the worst team I've seen win a game). There was one my dual partner probably could've called, but it wasn't blatant enough that I was going to call it from the other side of the field.
     
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  13. soccerref69420

    soccerref69420 Member+

    President of the Antonio Miguel Mateu Lahoz fan cub
    Mar 14, 2020
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea DPR
    Deja vu all over again. On a HS JV game tonight, my very experienced AR called handling on the keeper for holding it while punting it out. I was quite exasperated having to call that. The team scored directly from that free kick. They won 8-2 so it didn't matter but still.

    But someone please tell me here if I'm wrong in my thinking. A lot of these minor technical "defensive" infractions in and around the box, I just don't see the value in calling them. A keeper holding the ball a foot outside the box while punting or distributing via throw. The opportunity cost of the "advantage" they gain vs. the HUGE advantage you've just given the opposing team with a free kick 19 yards out. Keeper comes out of the box to save a ball? Absolutely of course 100%. But this? Come on. I'm just so tired. Even when the ball is still barely rolling on a goal kick when it is passed to a defender inside the box. Where is the advantage on these? If the GK does an egregious handling outside the box. I tell the AR to call out to them to watch their line for the warning.

    Very frustrating.
     
  14. the_phoenix612

    the_phoenix612 New Member

    Sep 13, 2022
    100% agree and heard this exact guidance from a PRO referee doing ref coaching at a National League tournament I officiated recently. AR2 on a game I was AR1 called the keeper for handling outside the area on a punt (after warning the keeper once) and at halftime the ref coach very politely explained that he should never, ever make that call ever again.
     
  15. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    In my experience, most calls against the GK on punts are incorrect. And I agree they are usually trifling. if a GK blatantly leaves the PA before releasing, of course we have to call it. As an AR, I’ll warn GKs on the first trifling offense. I do expect them to learn from that, and the trifling bar isn’t as forgiving once they’ve been warned.

    As a coach, on the other hand, I told my GKs not to flirt with the line. The extra yard they get is pretty meaningless compared to the opportunity they give the AR to make a bad call even if they don’t actually violate.
     
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  16. AZOldRef

    AZOldRef Member

    Chelsea
    United States
    Apr 5, 2021
    Agreed on letting minor GK punting offenses go. We had a National Referee coach give us that advice over the weekend. "Is anyone complaining about this?" was the question ... in our match the answer was a solid no.
    A warning usually solves the problem. "Hey, keep, you were really close to the line on the last punt, be careful next time" is code for "you were over the line, I'm giving you a break, don't do it again."
     
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  17. Chaik

    Chaik Member

    Oct 18, 2001
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    I was AR2 on a D3 game this year where the CR in his pregame said official NISOA policy was the keeper gets a step or two (not sure if that's the case, but sounds swell), but HIS policy was that his ARs were to never call handling on a punt "and I don't care if he's at midfield." Basically, he needed to be able to see how obvious it was from where he was standing, and he'd be the one to call it if it needed to be called.
     
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  18. davidjd

    davidjd Member+

    Jun 30, 2000
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Your last paragraph is exactly right. What advantage does the keeper really get from pushing that extra yard or so? As much as it may be trifling to call it, it's also the keeper rubbing it in your face and daring you to call it. Give him the benefit of the doubt. Warn him when you're really sure he crossed the line. Then call it.
     
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  19. soccerref69420

    soccerref69420 Member+

    President of the Antonio Miguel Mateu Lahoz fan cub
    Mar 14, 2020
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea DPR
    The worst thing about the GK handling is that once that flag goes up, you're basically completely handcuffed and HAVE to call it. I shouldn't even have to tell a very experienced guy that. In my pregame (which I didn't have time for), I tell ARs to please use common sense with all these infractions. The advantage for the GK of releasing a punt a foot outside the box vs. an attacking FK 19 yards out. The rolling goal kick that gets played to a defender inside the box, why do we need to stop the game. Please use common sense because when you put the flag up, I'm forced to make a call. And people barely ever complain about a GK releasing a punt outside the box.

    That is a great idea. Don't risk a 19 yard FK on a stupid AR.
     
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  20. AZOldRef

    AZOldRef Member

    Chelsea
    United States
    Apr 5, 2021
    In a bit of irony ... had to call this tonight. 1st punt the GK was way over the line, like 2-3 steps. Both me and the AR warned him. Next punt was even worse. Not much I could do other than blow the whistle.
     
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  21. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    Depends on level and AR. I have waved down. (This was the AR I think I've mentioned on here before, that I talked to at half time and someone had told him to watch the plant foot . . . I actually waved down twice in that first half--the first because I was doubtful and it would have been the first offense, and the second because I deliberately got in position to see it, as I didn't want that call happening unless I was comfortable with it. Fortunately, he was a guy who wanted to learn and was happy to get the actual rule explained.)
     
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  22. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    Chelsea
    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Des Moines, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yet another example of a center referee not allowing his ARs to be a true part of the team.

    I'm definitely one who won't call a play like this until it's pretty obvious, but if my AR can clearly see the keeper handled the ball outside of the area, then call it. I don't want a gray area one called, but if you know the keeper was several steps outside of the area handling the ball, we have to make that call.

    When I'm an AR, when I see the keeper getting borderline I just get his/her attention and say, "be careful of your line." All it takes is for the keeper to know we are actually watching, and they don’t get silly. But there is always one…….
     
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  23. Chaik

    Chaik Member

    Oct 18, 2001
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    That really wasn't how I interpreted it, basically his message was "if you are the only person on the field who can tell he is taking an extra step or two, we aren't calling that." We joked about it a bit, his feeling was basically he is not giving a 19 yard direct kick for something that really doesn't affect the game in any way unless the guy is taking enough of a liberty that you can see it from midfield. We had comms, too, so if it needed to be called we could have gotten it called.
     
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  24. soccerref69420

    soccerref69420 Member+

    President of the Antonio Miguel Mateu Lahoz fan cub
    Mar 14, 2020
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea DPR
    The problem with waving it down is that everyone knows what he’s calling, waving it down is taking away a 19 yard free kick, and waving it down is similar to waving down an offside flag where I’ll have to explain to the 19 yard FK coach why “I saw better than the AR on the line”. I will destroy both our credibilities. Can’t do it

    This is the other aspect of it to me. It’s really only going to be the AR who can see that call. If the AR doesn’t call it it’s extremely easy to sell “he released the ball before stepping out”. Extremely easy sell to prevent a 19 yard free kick.
     
  25. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    As I said, it depends on other factors. Sometimes we have to evaluate how much of an unfair situation we accept in the name of preserving credibility. Our credibility is going to be shot with the other team if I give a phantom, undeserved FK that is a huge scoring opportunity.
     
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