thierry henry's place in all time rank

Discussion in 'Players & Legends' started by darek27, Jan 14, 2015.

  1. darek27

    darek27 Member

    Aug 29, 2008
    a great and consistent player, all time top scorer for France and Arsenal,
    probably the best ever in Premier League history, unfairly he never won Ballon D'or, despite of that he should to win it in 2003 or 2004 or 2006 ( at least one time in this 3 years )

    he won a lot, he scored a lot but from other hand he never scored in major final, never dominated WC/Euro/UCL and it's all against him

    for some reasons rank below Ronaldo, Zidane, Messi, Cristiano and even below Figo or Ronaldinho

    so where is the point ?
    where do You rank him in the last 20 years and all time ?
     
  2. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    I would say Henry in Top 60-80 all times (since too many greats over history)

    If someone think it's low? note that one can count on a few fingers that any names in last 10 years would be shown up in TOP100 (Messi, CR7, obvious)
     
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  3. Ozora

    Ozora Member+

    Barcelona
    Spain
    Aug 5, 2014
    Club:
    Chelsea LFC
    Top 10 best France player of all time. And in all time ranking,i always find very hard to rank him
     
  4. Perú FC

    Perú FC Member+

    Nov 16, 2007
    Lima, Perú
    Perhaps it's difficult to place him in a general ranking because we'd have to deploy one, but strictly taking into account FW's I'd consider him around or near the top 10:

    01. Pelé (Brazil)
    02. Ferenc Puskás (Hungary)
    02. Lionel Messi (Argentina)
    04. Eusébio (Portugal)
    05. Cristiano Ronaldo (Portugal)
    06. Matthias Sindelar (Austria)
    06. György Sárosi (Hungary)
    06. László Kubala (Hungary)
    06. Karl-Heinz Rummenigge (Germany)
    10. Tostao (Brazil)
    10. Thierry Henry (France)
    10.
    Hristo Stoichkov (Bulgaria)
    13. Flórián Albert (Hungary)
    13. Oleg Blokhin (Soviet Union)
    13. Dennis Bergkamp (Netherlands)
    13. Mario Kempes (Argentina)

    At least more or less.
     
  5. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Both Tostao and Kubala were different type of players as Henry (more in the cerebral Albert and Bergkamp mould; Bergkamp was a 'support striker' in the most literal sense of the word) but I don't think he was at his peak less good as them and he certainly wins it in longevity (ofc both Tostao and Kubala unlucky with their injuries). Tostao had maybe a similar or higher peak fame (at one point in time by some seen as Brazil their best attacking player) than Henry, but Kubala didn't. Maybe Kubala was underrated during his actual playing days but taken everything together I don't think Henry is of a lower class than Tostao or Kubala.

    Rummenigge and Stoichkov is good company for him. Stoichkov was already a class player before he moved to Barcelona (CWC topscorer once with a good 7 goals).

    I can see the case why both Rummenigge and Stoichkov were better, but also the reverse. I can see the argument for why Henry was better or at an equal level as Tostao and Kubala, but not the reverse (e.g. these two markedly greater).
     
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  6. darek27

    darek27 Member

    Aug 29, 2008
    Ozora

    top 10 French players ever ?

    who is better than him bar Platini, Zidane and Kopa

    not about French NT but overall career



    PuckVanHeel

    how do You compare Henry vs Bergkamp ?

    what's Your opinion about Ronaldo vs Henry vs Cristiano ?



    Peru FC

    great list. have You similar lists of other positions ? can You show me ?
     
  7. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    I would say he was pretty dominant in Euro 2000, from what I have seen (most of the games) he was just as good as Zidane.
     
  8. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    I think that can go either way. For both a few things can be said. For international career I'm tempted to say Bergkamp, but he was half-fit in 1998WC. He was topscorer in one major tournament and assist leader in two major tournaments. Also one of the best ever chance creators at the european championships.
    But the international career is for some only a minor part of the full picture, and the club career as the main part can go either way.

    This is actually an interesting one because they are in a way similar. What is the right question to ask? If it is who will give the greatest guarantee to winning a game at a random club then I'm tempted to say: 1) Cristiano 2) (peak) Ronaldo and 3) Henry
    Potentially, in terms of skills and athletic ability, and when building a team around him, Henry can match both.

    A weakness was though that his finishing wasn't all that. The statistics also show this. This is maybe an issue when you play on the counter-attack and the chances are scarce. The counter-attack was his strength, and there he was for many at his most spectacular and electrifying, but he needed a supply of chances while - on average - it is harder to produce those same amount of shooting chances as a team when you play on the break.

    These links also fit in here:
    http://www.theguardian.com/football/2004/feb/15/sport.comment1
    http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/oct/17/arsene-wenger-regret-career-arsenal-ashley-cole
    http://frenchfootballweekly.com/201...lair-interview-part-i-arsenals-thierry-henry/
    http://frenchfootballweekly.com/201...r-interview-part-ii-thierry-henry-and-france/
     
  9. darek27

    darek27 Member

    Aug 29, 2008
    it was question about which of those 3 is the best in all time rank in Your opinion ?

    what do You think about Henry's weakness at big moments ?

    he never replicated EPL form into WC/Euro/UCL, he won it all but in shadow of Zidane or Messi.
    he never scored in major final despite playing many.
    he never won Ballon D'or "thanks" to that and even he should to win in some moments ( 2003, 04, 06 ) this award wouldn't change this opinion.
    in other words he never won international title as a main star, opposite to R9 and CR

    how this all things put together, affected him in all time rank ?



    about Cristiano where do You see him in all time greatest rank ? I bet that You have some personal ranking of all time ?


    I want to ask You about Messi too, cause I know that You are not a big fan of him
    how do You see him against Maradona ?
    has he chance to be equal to Diego or maybe he is equal or better ?
     
  10. Perú FC

    Perú FC Member+

    Nov 16, 2007
    Lima, Perú
    I know, there are many type of FW's (could you explain me the difference you make about what is a SS?) because I only built a general category to plot the position of Henry without details of roles.

    About Kubala, I've a fickle opinion of him, sometimes I think his popularity was superior to the trace of his career and sometimes lower, added to that his early decline makes him a special case.
     
  11. Perú FC

    Perú FC Member+

    Nov 16, 2007
    Lima, Perú
    I'm working on similar rankings, I hope to have something more solid in the coming months.
     
  12. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    How much value do you place on peak versus longevity? If peak is more valued, Tostao is greater than C Ronaldo, especially taking into account the international tournament performances. Also, Stoichkov has to be considered above Henry, greater club career with Barcelona, winning four consecutive La Ligas and their first CL, and taking unheralded Bulgaria into the semifinals of WC94, plus a fantastic performance in EC96 but unfortunate to exit too early.
     
  13. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    If I have to make a choice I'd say right now: 1) Cristiano 2) Ronaldo Fenomeno 3) Henry

    When looking at peak two years then Ronaldo Fenomeno has a case, but Cristiano is a natural born winner in every sense. He lifts the psychology of the whole team around him with his personality and mentality.

    Sadly, Ronaldo Fenomeno has been plagued by many injuries, but for many also his declined and sub-par work ethic played a part.

    I think it is a valuable point. He never scored in a community shield game too! He did score in the 2003 Confederations Cup final.

    In a few of those final matches he was really unlucky to not find the net (handball), and in at least half with Arsenal he has a claim to be their best performing player in those finals.

    If I counted right (did it quick), he didn't create an assist in a final for Arsenal either, but he did produce a number of chances for his team mates. That is just incredibly bad luck. To create in all those final matches (FA Cups, UEFA Cup, UCL etc.) never an assist.

    Also, it might be argued that the whole league campaign was 'one big moment', and he scored many times a goal against big opponents in the Champions League. He scored in games that Arsenal probably wouldn't have won without his input (think about Real Madrid for ex.).
    But never in a final, no.

    But he did win some when he was playing equally well as their main billboard star (euro2000 final), and all of the names you mentioned have also won major trophies while they weren't the best performer of their team in major finals.

    His only chance to win an international title as undisputed main star of his team was UCL2006. Agree? It wasn't UEFA Cup 2000, euro 2000 or WC2006. Let alone euro 2004.

    No I don't have a personal ranking. I see him as a player in the Ronaldo Fenomeno, Van Basten, Zico regions. Funnily, of those four I'm mentioning now he's possibly the least entertaining and sophisticated player to watch, but the greatest guarantee for a win in a random team.
     
  14. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    #14 JamesBH11, Jan 17, 2015
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2015
    yes (plus 10 world class team mates behind)= if one talked of Liga or Real club player
    The problem of Henry was exactly like CR7, not so decisive in big games. Other than that he was a great striker, skillful and dynamic with vision.

    in big games not many could surpass R9 as a "natural winner" (only very few)
     
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  15. darek27

    darek27 Member

    Aug 29, 2008
    Henry had an assists to Campbell in UCL 2006 final and was MVP in Euro 2000 final named by UEFA


    Puck and what about this:


    I want to ask You about Messi too, cause I know that You are not a big fan of him
    how do You see him against Maradona ?
    has he chance to be equal to Diego or maybe he is equal or better ?
     
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  16. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #16 PuckVanHeel, Jan 17, 2015
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2015
    I didn't answer the other question because there are too many threads about it.

    Correct. I checked it further and he had an assist in the UCL 2006 final. He scored in the 2003 community shield and the 2003 confederations cup.
    He had no goals or assists in the other finals he played for France, Arsenal or Barcelona. Sometimes he was important on the road to that: he had a goal and an assist vs Bayern Munich at home in 2008-09 (quarter finals; he didn't play the 2nd leg), three goals and an assist against Lyon in 2008-09 (round of 16). At the end of the season he caught an injury and was just rushed in time for the 2009 UCL final.

    He played in: euro2000 final, 2003 confederations cup final, 2006 World Cup final, 2000 Uefa Cup final, 2001 FA Cup final (Liverpool saved a shot of his on goal with a handball), 2002 FA Cup final, 2003 FA Cup final, 2002 Community Shield, 2003 Community Shield, 2004 Community Shield, 2005 Community Shield, 2006 Champions League final, 2009 UCL final, 2009 Supercopa.

    He didn't play in: 1998 World Cup final, 2005 FA Cup final, 2007 League Cup final, 2009 Copa del Rey final.

    In some final matches for Arsenal he created chance after chance, but just unlucky to register an assist or pre-assist. As also Philippe Auclair remarks: Arsene Wenger happens to be the only manager in history with all three loser medals of the UEFA main competitions (CWC, UC, UCL), without possessing one winner medal.
     
  17. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
  18. EdgarAllanPoet

    EdgarAllanPoet Member+

    May 1, 2011
    James it has been proven over and over again that Ronaldo has been decisive in big games. He has 26 goals in his last 29 elimination matches. This is the greatest misnomer surrounding Cristiano. He has a very solid record vs. Barcelona, Bayern and Atletico. In the Champion's League he has scored vs. United, Liverpool, City, Milan, Inter, Juventus, Dortmund. He scored in every stage last year was also the top assister. He has also scored vs. every team he has faced in the Champions' League with Madrid.


    Regarding you going back to having 10 world class teammates again. He was sucessful at United, even more-so trophy wise and reached back to back CL finals along with a Ballon D'Or and finished 2nd in years he didn't win. 20 assists he produced in -06-7 is still his highest assisting year. Even with these supposed 10 world class teammates he hasn't eclipsed what he did 9 years ago.

    You are probably going to take it back to Portugal like you always do but he has been better than you give him credit for there as well.
     
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  19. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    plus Henry was very good at UCL2006 FINAL as well ... at least until Arsenal got 1 man short

    I know you ask Puck, but my answer:
    Messi is no Maradona and never will be (by 2010-12 yes people have a lot of hope for him to become same or even better than Maradona (!) .. time passing by ,,,and now he is 27/28 now)
     
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  20. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    that's your analysis ... and very questionable of those 29 games?
    I never said CR7 was bad in big games ! (but he did fail to cope with his "own" standard at WC level)

    I had no interest of the debate R9 vs CR7. (anyone can prefer one to another - fine by me)
    All I was against Puck's claim that CR7 was a (better) natural winner than R9 = IMPOSSIBLE
    Longevity? yes,
    Athletic? yes
    Header and aerial work? yes
    Freekick? yes
    Thats' all for CR7 vs R9
     
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  21. EdgarAllanPoet

    EdgarAllanPoet Member+

    May 1, 2011
    That's all for Cr7? LOL, you must be joking!

    Consistency? Yes
    Passing/assisting? Yes
    Weak foot? Yes
    Versatility? Yes
    Long Range? Yes
    Speed? Yes
    Stamina? Yes
    Counter-attacking? Yes
    Footskills?Even
    Dribbling? No
    Quickness? Even
    Finishing? Some areas even, some yes, some no.

    Cristiano is much more complete and is superior in more aspects than R9 is to Cristiano. I agree with Puck that Critsiano is also a greater winner. R9' s long club career is 2nd rate by comparison. Although he does have the national team career advantage. Though Cristiano wan't born Brasilian.
     
  22. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
  23. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    all of the above R9 beat CR7 (not just beat but some area by a mile!)
    Passing NO, R9 made more assist and more visionary passes
    Weak foot? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO CR7 right foot is ust equal to R9 weak foot LOL
    Versatility? Same (they both could play as CF or either wings
    Long range? arguably same
    ( but if one take efficiency % R9 beat CR7 by a mile) CR7 got 1goal/10+ shots long range LLOL
    Speed? at his peak no one was faster than R9
    Stamina? in big games R9 was proven much better
    Footskill and ball control? R9 by a mile
    Dribbling? no comparison, R9 by a mile
    Quickness? same \
    Finishing? by 2 miles (R9 got average 1goal per 3.5shots >>> CR7 1goal/7.5 shots

    ============================================
    go back and rewatch R9
     
  24. EdgarAllanPoet

    EdgarAllanPoet Member+

    May 1, 2011
    Speed: Cristiano has been clocked with Olympic level 100 meter times. He has reached speeds close to 25 miles per hour after already running for over 40 minutes in a game. He had the fastest sprint at the 2010 World Cup. There is a video where he is timed running 96 meters in 10 seconds after already running 7 kilometers. Sorry James, unless you provide similar results for Ronaldo 9 I'm obliged to not believe anything to the contrary. Theo Walcott and Bale is the closest in speed I have heard of. Your eyes telling you Ronaldo is faster isn't going to work for me.

    Assists: Cristiano has 130 assists so far. What source are you using for Ronaldo that states he has more? Cristiano passes equally with either foot as well. I don't know how you are defining "visionary" but Cristiano plays a final pass as well as any player in history. His crossing is as effective as any player as well. He executes passes in every discipline anywhere on the field in any situation.

    Weak Foot: You're having a laugh. Cristiano has scored over 60 goals with his left foot and quite a few from the edge of and deep outside the box. Left footed tap-ins are the least of his weak foot goals. Plus his left foot passing is sublime.

    Stamina: What do you mean"in big games R9 was proven much better?" What kind of evidence is that? Cristiano is the player who works the hardest and exerts himself in every match from kick-off to the final whistle. When he has 3 goals he is fighting with everything he has to score a 4th late in the game. Any one who watches Cristiano is well aware of his physical and mental endurance. As I told you about his speed, he has produced some of his fastest times at the end of games. I remember Ronaldo lazily moving around for much of his games when he played for Madrid.

    Footskill: Ball control Ronaldo has the edge but skill wise, i.e. ability to perform a technical skill they are about even. I think you are forgetting young Cristiano Ronaldo blazing down the field dropping defenders left and right with his sharp turns and quick accelerations. Ronaldo had superior close control and start and stop ability but Cristiano was just as skillful from a performance aspect utilizing every trick in the book. Everything from 360's to chops to step-overs to elastico's.

    Finishing: This is your classic fallacy of comparing Cristiano to other players. Cristiano takes sometimes 60-70 free kicks a year. Take off those shot totals which lead to a low goal return and what does the comparison become? In high percentage situations in or around the box Cristiano is just as clinical a finisher as Ronaldo. Another misnomer repeatedly over-looked. Heading Cristiano is clearly superior.

    Long Range: Excluding free-kicks Cristiano has 35 goals from outside the box and many of these are 30+ meters. He has a few free-kicks in the 40 meter range. From what I remember of Ronaldo's career his long range capability was not even close.

    Consistency: This is the widest gap of any between the two players.
    Cristiano has won every trophy at club level with two different teams. He is right with Messi for having the most Champion's League goals of all-time. He has scored vs every team Madrid has faced in the Champion's League He is his country's top scorer. He has scored in 6 consecutive international tournaments. Cristiano is the top European Championship goal scorer ever. He is the only player to score against every team in La Liga. He has the most away goals in a season with 23. He has finished at least 2nd in the Ballon D'or in 8 years.. Golden Boots spanning 6 years...etc. I could go on forever.

    Versatility:
    He can play equally on either side of the field, alone up front, deep on the wings or wide forward. He is great at defending corners, retaining goal kicks, scoring assisting, head, long range, free kicks etc. I don't remember Ronaldo having so many attributes in so many roles.

    Counter attack: Cristiano is the greatest counter attacker ever. Hands down. His speed, combination play and finishing along with his unparalleled off the ball movement makes him the most deadly player on the counter I have ever seen.I admit Ronaldo was great at dribbling from midfield to the box to score but Cristiano gets involved by catching up to plays 20-30 yards ahead of him by outrunning everyone on the field. He also scores tremendous goals where he and a teammate pass back and forth down the length of the field.
     
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  25. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    whatever ... pointless to argue ... as that was just your own imagination of rating!

    Fact said: No one called CR7 a new Pele/Maradona but R9 a phenomenon, (for his exquisite talent and skills)

    Save your energy and wait to see if CR7 will ever get ranked any closer to R9 by end of his career! Let along the hope he will be ranked higher !
    Good luck!

    BTW as of this thread, CR7 will be ranked higher than Henry ... (and I agree )
     
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