They say Messi will become the best ever. What do you say?

Discussion in 'Players & Legends' started by Izzy9, Apr 25, 2011.

  1. phil80

    phil80 Member

    Aug 25, 2007
    It is pretty straightforward, there has been a lack of movement in the middle and attacking third. Messi operates best with combination plays and give and go's, but with the lack of movement he has been left isolated and forced to do too much. There is also no creativity being generated from the midfield and the player has hardly seen adequate service. As a result, he has had to take on a different role by dropping deep in midfield to create the opportunities for the strikers. This has limited his opportunities in the box and has forced him to take more long-distance range shots. Having said this, it does not imply he doesnt need to get on the score sheet, as some posters are mistakingly saying people are suggesting, but it puts into perspective his role and the type of influence being expected.
     
  2. phil80

    phil80 Member

    Aug 25, 2007
    To refresh, we were looking for straightforward shots that the player has blundered. Vs Bolivia, The first half shot should have been better taken. The second half shot I would not consider a blunder. It was a chipped ball coming from behind the player that would have been too difficult to generate enough power or accuracy trying to take it the first time. Rewatch the delivery, as it came from a weird angle. He did well bringing it down and it could have been a good chance if the defenders werent closing in as early. Still I wouldnt classify it as a blunder.
    vs columbia- poor free kick agreed
    vs uruguay- the first one was a decent chance. It was outside the box with congestion inside, but would have liked to see him test the keeper more with it but wouldnt necessarily label it as a blunder.
    the second one, Messi did well to get past the defenders initially and should have put it away but for an incredible defensive last ditch effort by uruguay's defender.

    So that is three straightforward opportunities in four matches (if you include the costa rica match and include his freekick against columbia though not sure it would classify as 'straightforward'). Most strikers get that many opportunities in one game. Initially, I was hoping to see examples of Higuain type of opportunity blunders, the way some people are criticizing would make you think he had multiple breakaways and straightforward clear chances. But I am glad I rewatched those videos as it reinstates what previously expressed. Messi is not getting adequate service, his overall performances especially in his distribution and creative play was impressive, and the people criticizing are clumsily exaggerating his lack of attacking contribution and influence. .
     
  3. Cr7fanatic17

    Cr7fanatic17 New Member

    Sep 12, 2011
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Messi is very good, But CR7 is still better. CR7 carries portugal through as far as he can every year. Messi on the other hand has not shown up on the international level yet. CR and Messi are the two best to walk the field. But Cristiano still has better free kicks, more speed, better footwork, dangerous in the air. He is all around a better player in my opinion/ :eek:
     
  4. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    :D:p
     
  5. Moishe

    Moishe Moderator
    Staff Member

    Boca Juniors
    Argentina
    Mar 6, 2005
    Here there and everywhere.
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    It is how you and I post and I admit I am pushing a little bit of buttons. I'll touch on the thing that prompted the "link or stfu" in a few.

    That post you are referencing loses some of it's context when you exclude the emoticons that ended that comment. IIRC and I may be wrong here but somewhere either in that post or one within a page of it touches on that comment.

    It has everything to do with expectations Phil. The higher the praise and hype the higher the expectations. It's not much different in real life. Why would I hold let's say Maxi Moralez or Pochi Chavez to the same standard of a Messi or CRonaldo? Of the latter two, one is already being bantered about as an all-time great while the first two players will never remotely come close to even being involved in that discussion so again why would you hold them to the same standard of expectation?


    Here is the interesting thing, I did admit error. Now how about you admitting you were wrong or simply talking pelotudeces when you attributed the club bias or nationalism garbage to me? In this response I am quoting you simply eliminated it from your response. Why? Maybe it's because I never said those things and you simply don't have the resources to back up what is essentially a lie. Link or an admission please.

    I didn't use the term blundered at any point in this thread did I? Not finishing and blundering are two different things. I think you are doing that thing again where you attribute things other posters said to me.

    The problem with those blatant facts is that he's still actually getting his shots compared to his teammates. If the role matter is a justification then why are players like Tevez for example who has been played for the most part as a winger not given the same pass? Otamendi as a fullback? Cambiasso and Lucho as left sided midfielders, Riquelme as a deep lying midfielder..........

    The whole importance of that one criteria is that in the international game he isn't going to get the multitude and variety of shots as he's going to get against the Getafe and Malaga's of the world so what he gets he needs to finish. It really is that simple and the only issue aside from FK's that I fault in his game for the shirt.


    Yet again, the proportion of criticism towards Messi is much less than what Diego ever took. That's not an opinion, it is simply reality. The critiques of our players are part of our football culture and as someone that has never been immersed in that culture (particularly Argentina) you simply don't understand. I do think to a degree you are right though.

    Don't forget those links to the nationalistic and club bias allegations please:)

    He is and that is what is frustrating.

    The only difference between now and then is the internet. Let's also not forget that players have been killed as a direct result of performances or really lack of performances. Wrong on so many levels but still a part of reality.

    A couple of things, but Columbia is the river and Colombia is the country. Also you seem to be saying that Messi needs to receiving better service to score which is all fine and good but as a play maker in a deeper role he also needs to make his own shot (which he has) so if that is true then he really isn't suited to be a play maker. You can't have it both ways.

    You tell yourself whatever it is you need to sleep better at nights. Don't forget to factor in that Ronaldo has better hair too.
     
  6. Estel

    Estel Member+

    May 5, 2010
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Regarding that shot he chested and volleyed - Agreed it was a wierd angle, but as I said, he could still have volleyed it on the first go if he had let it move a bit ahead of him and not put his body in between to chest it down. It would have come on his weaker foot though. However, volleying such balls is the kind of technique that I expect from players of his calibre.


    Why are you including the Costa Rica match? I never analysed it since it was not a game where Argentina needed him to score, as per the discussion between you and Moishe.

    Also, the fact that he is not getting more clear cut chances against even half-decent opposition, like the teams he faced in that Copa group stage, is actually evidence of him not being effective as a playmaker. As the person tasked with creating opportunities, he is the one who is supposed to ensure that his team is effective in attack. If his team's attacking play improves, then it will automatically result in him seeing better opportunities fall his way, as other playmakers throughout history have seen from time-to-time.
     
    SayWhatIWant repped this.
  7. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    Not quite sure what you meant .. but I'll try ...

    yes those 5 to 10% of big events i.e. WC Euro copa ... are the best means to DIFFEREENTIATE between the greats ,,, remember a great player shall be rated/judged better when they OUTSHONE the others in those occasions

    i.e. Maradona 86 had sealed his greatness to surpass Di Stefano, Cruijff, Beckenbauer ... and be closer to Pele .

    i.e. like in univerity or college, teacher could NOT evaluate students thru out their whole year but mainly based on the FINAL exam which is even less than 5% of their whole time study to perform the exam.

    yes and no ... depend on the writers/posters
    the same would also said against younger posters who lacked of knowledge of past players ...
     
  8. condor11

    condor11 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 2, 2002
    New Zealand
    what I was trying to say

    given that most matches are either televised or delayed, sub par performances rarely go unoticed

    on top of that tv pundits from all over, internet bloggers, websites, youtube etc

    surely the current player is more heavily scrutinized than any other time

    read somewhere that when puskas and his gang first played englad they were virtual unknowns, surely the information available plays a part in how players are judged and more importantly how the opposition prepare for them
     
  9. phil80

    phil80 Member

    Aug 25, 2007
    But whether it is Maradona or Di Maria, no matter the quality of player, when they are made to play a different role and one that doesnt suit their strengths then it should be taken into consideration. That's why I pointed out the difference in your evaluations between Riquelme and Messi.

    Moishe, I cited a bias in the style and tone of your posts on the player from early on. Whatever the reason may be, it seemed pretty glaring in your evaluations. But you claimed I had a bias and denied I had ever been critical of the player. I gave examples and then posted that specific quote to disprove your claim. The bottom line is I have no connection nor attachment to the player so I have no problems being critical and non-bias towards him

    That is how you were describing his 'poor finishing'. You have focused on that one criteria in almost every post and have exaggerated to the extent where it is made out to be a blunder. So whether you actually used the term 'blunder' is irrelevant as that is how you are describing it. If i say Iniesta's horizontal velocity distance is challenged and nearly every player including keepers can outpace him, then it is irrelevant whether I actually use the term 'slow' because that is how it was described.

    .
    ?? I hope you are not meaning he is getting better looks than Hiquain, Lavezzi, Aguero? The only way, as witnessed by the copa america matches, he is getting his shots for the most part is having to create them out of nothing himself. And he is not Maradona circa 86 and not even Maradona was that level at Messi's age, so it is wrong to expect such things from the player.

    What same pass? What pass is Messi getting from the media and fans?

    Multitude and variety of shots? In which games did he get all those? I suggest reading my post response to Estel that specified the true number of chances he was receiving.

    .
    I may not be aware of the culture, but whether it is for Diego, Messi, or whichever next best player for the squad, it seems it is not the best way to handle players.

    Moishe, you know you would change your hairstyle to his in a heartbeat if it meant getting with Paris Hilton and Kardashian in one summer.
     
  10. Gregoriak

    Gregoriak BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 27, 2002
    Munich
    I don't think so. But they would have been if there had been an internet which had empowered anyone to publicise his opinion on anything on a public platform. But then still less media coverage/broadcasting of games would have left many people guessing about the true worth of a famous player.
     
  11. SirWellingtonSilva

    May 30, 2011
    Club:
    Arsenal FC

    You also pick up every single skill, trick, pass, assist, goal ect of the modern player. I've seen more close ups of cr7's hair and ronaldinhos teeth than ive seen sivori or puskas ect at all.

    Im sure managers didnt prepare their tactics based on public opinion
     
  12. phil80

    phil80 Member

    Aug 25, 2007
    The Costa Rica match was included because it was part of the discussion as one of the games Messi did not score in. But it seems that you did not respond to my point that most strikers on decent teams get around those three good looks per game, while Messi was supplied that many in four matches.
    As for the second statement. Not really sure how you can say Messi has not been an effective playmaker. Did you not see how many through passes and chipped balls he gave to the strikers, especially Higuain? Most of them extremely accurate and put the strikers on breakaways and very straightforward shots. I would definitely recommend rewatching those videos of the matches, as Messi rivaled some of the best playmakers playing today with his distribution and creative play throughout the tournament.
     
  13. Estel

    Estel Member+

    May 5, 2010
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Since the Costa Rica match was not analysed for any shots on goal that should have been finished better by Messi, I don't see the point of including it when saying that Messi had this many opportunities in these many games. Thus, since I have clearly stated that I only analysed him for the other three games of Copa America 2011 (and not for the game against Costa Rica), your applying the results of my analysis to that match is quite obviously wrong.

    And yes, I have followed the discussion closely and to my understanding, the Costa Rica match specifically was not included in it, since it was not a match in which Messi 'needed' to score to improve his team's chances (others did do the required job in that match). If however you want to include all games in which Messi has not scored into this discussion, then I suggest you also look at the World Cup 2010, for shots that Messi took which should have been finished better by him.


    Yes, but the other players, greats who played as playmakers and scored goals for their teams in major international tournaments, did not play as strikers either when they scored those goals and yet they also created quite as much as Messi did. So your point is redundant.

    Understand one thing please, none of us expects Messi to score with the same rate that he scores for Barcelona. Hell, I don't even expect him to score at even half that rate. However, he is also not expected to go scoreless either, especially not when his team needs goals from him badly.

    For e.g., if he had converted one of those two chances in ET against Uruguay, Argentina would most probably have progressed past the QF. His failure to do that, when his team needed him so badly to, is the basic difference between him and former greats who became legends for their national teams.


    I would think that the fact that I was the one who posted those instances of Messi not finishing as well for Argentina as he has been doing for Barcelona in answer to a question asked by you, suggests that I have watched those matches quite thoroughly. So I think I am going to disregard your recommendation and stick to my own assessment of his playmaking prowess.
     
    SayWhatIWant repped this.
  14. Moishe

    Moishe Moderator
    Staff Member

    Boca Juniors
    Argentina
    Mar 6, 2005
    Here there and everywhere.
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    The thing is that I have given it some consideration, I just don't weigh it that high as having that much of an impact on his finishing. I think he's done a fine job creating his own shot nor do I expect him to score or create for himself with the same frequency as he does with Barca. It's just not realistic being that imo the club and international games are vastly different.

    Returning back to my initial quoted point you responded to. I believe expectations and levels of accountability go hand in hand. If the hype on Messi (and CR7 for that matter) wasn't so elevated or exaggerated (it's only semantics right?) then the expectation wouldn't be so high. Touching on the Riquelme/Messi comparison one last time (hopefully), Riquelme was never expected to be able to make that transition to winger yet on the other hand the consensus on these forums (the fans) was that he would easily by virtue of is gift be able to walk in to that role and dominate. He's been in the role exclusively since Diego and the only glaring shortcoming is his finishing of late.


    From day one with Messi (when he was still dealing with injury) I always took things with guarded optimism as I do with virtually every young up and comer. It's not a bias against the player, if anything I have a bias for the player due to his being Argentine and a player I've ALWAYS said needed to be on the pitch if we were going to win a major trophy.

    If you want to talk about bias against a player, my views on Seba Veron are infinitely more harsh than anything I've ever said about Messi. All I've ever done is point out perceived flaws in Messi's game which by no means are glaring but also a far cry from what many fans on here said he'd be doing in his sleep. Again, not bias but quite honestly objectivity.

    Blundering and poor finishing are not even remotely the same thing and you know that so using the two words/terms in a like manner is a stretch. I stated somewhere along the lines of his shooting almost exclusively at the opposing keepers not whiffing or missing open goals so I'm not sure how you came to chose the word blunder. Your Iniesta example about slow and horizontal velocity is more related than poor finishing and blundering.


    No not necessarily but his looks aren't bad either. If the shots he gets weren't ones he has scored off of dozens of times already then I wouldn't say much but the truth is he puts away those same looks for Barca so to me it's it has become glaring.

    When was the last post you can recall in which Tevez, Cambiasso, Otamendi.....bad performances were attributed to the coaching/system/teammates issue? They have been and are chastised for THEIR poor performances and nothing else. That too is a double standard (not one attributed to you).

    C'mon Phil. Going back to the last time Messi scored in a WCQ/WC/Copa you have at least 50-60 shots on goal to chose from. Your response to Estel was about the Copa iirc. The fact is Messi has had more shots on goal since March of 2009 than any other player on our squad. He's had the overwhelming majority of those shots are in and around the penalty area. This isn't a new area for him to try and score from is it?

    It probably isn't but it's par for course in Argentina where our expectations of an Enganche are obviously higher than most anyplace else.

    I've carried a zero maintenance hair cut since my military days and as a competitive cyclist the least annoying so no, I wouldn't change. As for Paris, too blonde, too skanky and way too skinny. Kardashian is intriguing due to her posterior assets but her attitude is a major turn off.

    I think many of us have varying opinions of what constitutes a player maker. Passing and distribution while majorly important aren't the be all end all for me and many Argentines. We expect our Enganches to be able to manage the movements of their teammates, dictate and change tempo throughout the game, free kicks, corners, scoring......My experiences growing up watching the likes of Bochini, Diego, Enzo, Riquelme......leave me with higher expectations of a play maker since that's why those guys were able to produce to varying levels. I think Messi is great and could be greater as a winger forward or support striker for Argentina but he simply isn't an Enganche. It's not a knock on the player, it simply isn't his role.

    Now are you ever going to touch on the mater of my posts showing a nationalistic or club bias towards Messi? This is at least the second time I've called you out about it so why are you choosing to ignore it? You aren't going to find one post to support that absurd lie so please acknowledge you were wrong making such a bold claim. It's the right thing to do.
     
  15. Charlie512

    Charlie512 Member

    Oct 17, 2010
    Texas
    Club:
    Pachuca CF
    Nat'l Team:
    Mexico
    It reminds me of college when a test is worth something like 50% of the final grade and homeworks only 10-20%.

    People just expects someone to perform at a given specific time and factor that in as well as overall performance.

    Given the nature of tournaments (especially NT) everything happens within a few games.
     
  16. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    You had homework in college? :confused:


    Either way I don't think your comparison stands as players get paid for performing weekly.
     
  17. Estel

    Estel Member+

    May 5, 2010
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    By that token, these players don't need to perform well in the WC at all. Considering that the amount of money that they would get from their national associations for playing each match in the the tournament would not be even remotely comparable to that which they get for playing for their clubs. But, that is beside the point.

    Tell me, are you really going to argue that for a football player, individually, the biggest achievement is not winning the WC while starring for his own national team? Keep aside the number of matches and think for a moment, do you really believe that the players don't know that at best they generally get 4 chances to win a WC and most probably only a single chance to play in it when they are at their peak? Do you then think that they don't mentally prepare themselves for exactly those few games and that one tournament, so that they can perform their best in it?

    Lastly, it is not like all the club games that a player plays in are given the same weightage either. Since if that were the case, then a player scoring a hat-trick against some of the the weakest teams in a national league would be equivalent to a player scoring a hat-trick in the Continental Club Championship final against some of the best club teams in the world. So even in the other 95% of games that a player plays, only a very small amount are infact considered to be important games which determine whether the player's team wins major trophies or not.
     
  18. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    Sure, but there are more heartless mercenaries out there then one likes to admit.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2010/may/01/benoit-assou-ekotto-tottenham-hotspur

    Anyway this isn't my point.

    It is highly deceptive to focus too much on WC performances or single memorable moments (see Roger Milla) if you want to determine the 'best' (not the 'greatest' which is a different thing imo) players as luck plays a huge role.


    EDIT: Proof @ 'Top 100 Greatest Players ever' thread where someone tells me he'd take Thuram over Vogts for his offensive qualites.
     
  19. phil80

    phil80 Member

    Aug 25, 2007
    What does it matter that you did not analyze it or not? The fact is it is being criticized that Messi has not scored at all in a competitive fixture for country for over a year (a misleading comment to begin with) whether the goal was needed or not is not what most posters have specified. You can choose to leave out any game you want in your assessment. I commented on all games in copa america since that is more justified and a better representation

    With those playmakers, it was their role and preferred position. You think Zidane would have been able to play Messi's role at Barca as effectively?

    Who expected him to go scoreless? Reread the posts. The people criticizing are disproportionately putting the failures of the national team on him, with the only argument of him not being on the score sheet, while mostly disregarding his overall gameplay, creative tasks, and having to play a role he normally doesn't. That is the point debated and no one is saying he is free of scoring responsibilities.
    No one is suggesting he has played up to Maradona levels for the national team. For his age, he is behind other greats for the NT while ahead of many of them for club, simple as that.

    It is also incorrect to think that the other greats would certainly put those chances Messi has received in the back of the net, especially when considering the position and lack of quality service. As if they have not missed their fair share of opportunities.

    Once again, you did not answer the question. How has Messi not been an effective playmaker? Scoring is not how you assess the effectiveness of playmakers. As for the role of playmaker, he has done a solid job supplying the strikers and building up the attack with creative plays and vision.
     
  20. Estel

    Estel Member+

    May 5, 2010
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Fair enough.

    I guess I misunderstood you, since I thought you were saying that we should not consider NT performances as an important part of rating a player at all, simply for the reason that they represent only a small percentage of career games of a player.
     
  21. phil80

    phil80 Member

    Aug 25, 2007
    It makes no difference if one is rated more or a better player or etc, when any player plays a different role they should be judged accordingly and not criticizing one while excusing the other. That is the whole point and principle with the double standards debate.
    Did you type that with a straight face?
    The amount of criticism you attribute to his poor finishing and your propensity to repeat it so often makes you describe it as if they were blunders. If you want to take another post obsessing over the word blunder, then feel free to. However, it is the manner in which it is described and not that exact word itself.

    I have already explained this. To look at only the number of shots tells you very little. When a player gets inadequate service and is forced to create their own shots then ofcourse that number will be skewed. You need to look at the type of shots and the realistic amount of chances that could have been converted. As I went through the copa america matches, he had three realistic opportunities in four matches. Most strikers get more than that in one game and even the more efficient strikers would not convert two of three of those chances.

    Agree.

    It has already been addressed. Someone doesn't need to admit their bias for it to be true. It is written in the tone and style of your posts and evaluations on the player. If you really think you have no bias then it would be best to pay attention in the manner it is delivered, because that is the way it comes across. However, your accusation and claim that I have never been critical of the player was the one proven to be a lie, buddy.
     
  22. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    Let's take a great name against your 'no name" player as suggestion:

    Messi says its World Cup that he wants to win at any cost
    ...

    Says Diego Maradona was and is a legend. He is unique but at the same time, Messi wants himself to go down in the history as a great player.

    "If I have the luck to do what Diego did, then it will be good."
    http://soccerphase.com/football/com_news/13477/messi-says-its-world-cup-that-he-wants-to-win-at-any-cost/.

    ===========================================

    Worldsoccer Magazine TOP100 list in 2001 showed at least Thuram got 13votes (hence outside TOP100) and Vogts no votes

    Bleacherreport website showed Thuram at 65, and Vogts again missing in the TOP100 names
    ... and many more...

    Those are just few examples showing Vogts was not that impressed worldwide as Kicker magazine and youself claimed
     
  23. Estel

    Estel Member+

    May 5, 2010
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    You can't choose to make a comment using the results of my analysis, when you are disregarding the boundaries set by my analysis in the first place.

    I analysed 3 matches of the Copa America 11' for shots on goal that Messi should have finished better. These did not include the match against Costa Rica. You used the result of this above analysis, i.e. the point that Messi got 5 opportunities in those 3 matches, to make the statement that "So that is three straightforward opportunities in four matches (if you include the costa rica match and include his freekick against columbia though not sure it would classify as 'straightforward')". I obviously objected to this statement due to the unfair addition of the Costa Rica match, without analysing it for any inefficient finishing by Messi.

    Since you were unable to understand this simple point, please don't blame me for taking any claims that you make with a pinch of salt.


    Messi not being able to be effective as a playmaker exactly due to it not being his role or preferred position, is what I am trying to say. That is the exact reason why I feel he should be utilised as a wing forward, since it would be the position in which he would be comfortable and thus be able to excel.

    Also I don't understand how you can argue here that he is unable to score because he is not in his preferred position when infact scoring i.e. finishing, is his forte, as someone who plays in the position of a forward and excels in it. But then, this is again one of your 'claims', so I guess there is no point in trying to find any higher reasoning behind it.


    Be that as it may, the people who are rooting for him are not faultless either. Isn't the reason given for Messi being considered as the player capable of donning the mantle of the 'best ever', as seen in this thread title, his ability to supposedly single-handedly destroy teams by being an unstoppable goalscorer (aka Arsenal - CL 09-10, Real Madrid - Supercup 2011, etc.)?

    Such a player not being able to score even a single goal in two international tournaments, especially when his team needs him to do so badly in one (talking specifically about Copa 11' here), is not something that would go unnoticed, nor for that matter uncriticised. It is not like Messi is playing as the goalkeeper.

    Lastly, in your above passionate attempt at providing a rebuttal to his critics, you go uptill the point of accepting that "no one suggested he is free of scoring responsibilities" yet you shy away from denouncing him for his failure to deliver on that very same aspect. On the contrary, you seem to arduously argue how his being burdened with other duties, being not supplied with the same kind of scoring chances as the strikers in his team, being made to play in a deeper unfamiliar role, etc. are infact the reasons for his being unable to score, while completely forgetting the fact that most of these(except the last one) were equally applicable to the playmakers of yore.

    Anyway Phil, it is not doubters like me who believe that he will become the 'best ever', it is supporters like you. Going with this line of thinking for the sake of the thread however, doubters like me then have no choice but to assume that Messi would be able to adapt to the 'new' playmaking role and infact play better in it than any player since Maradona; considering how he is better than many of the greats, especially I assume most of the playmakers (request your pardon if I am wrong in this assumption of your understanding) at club level, as explained by you below.

    It is from this assumption of there being some rhyme or reason for this percieved 'best ever' awesomeness of his, that doubters like us faultily end up criticising him for not scoring in the most recent international tournament, even though he is playing in a role completely new to him, since the last one year.:rolleyes:


    As a great, I expect him to be able to display similar level performances for every team that he plays for, not just for the one which is the proverbial 'biggest bully in the park'. Until then, it is rather difficult for me to determine his exact worth, simple as that.


    What you state above is speculation that I did not indulge into.

    My statement referred to his inability to rise to the occasion and be the difference-maker for Argentina inspite of having two opportunities to do so against Uruguay during ET in the Copa 11'.

    This IMO is something that players who became NT greats, were infact able to do from time-to-time, especially in major tournaments.


    A playmaker is not simply an assist provider, since simply dinking balls over the opposition's defence or making passes to the open man in attack is regularly done by a lot of players in a team, and not just by a team's playmaker. A playmaker's job rather is to be the orchestrator or the organizer of a team's attack, giving it direction and unity.

    Considering the state of Argentina's attack (not talking about the lack of finishing by the forwards here) which sorely lacks in fluidity and organization, I can't help but state that Messi has been a rather ineffective playmaker.
     
  24. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    Your kidding right? :D

    Why the hell do you always bring up those two lists when everybody tells you they are absolute garabage and totally useless waste of space?
    It's like citing Daniel96 or that Swedish guy who thinks Ibra is better than Messi as a credible source.


    Easily the fifth time I have to tell you that a list (World Soccer) which has David Ginola ahead of Raymond Kopa, Roger Milla ahead of Giacinto Facchetti and the second one (Bleacherreport) with Patrick FREAKIN Kluivert among the Top 100 players of ALL TIME, Rudi Völler one slot in front of Zico is beyond abysmal.

    Hard to figure out yourself huh?
     
  25. Moishe

    Moishe Moderator
    Staff Member

    Boca Juniors
    Argentina
    Mar 6, 2005
    Here there and everywhere.
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    You aren't getting off that easy, sorry. You attributed the bold below to me so I would like to see an actual post in which my club affiliation or any comments about "vindictive nationalistic baggage" come in to play in ANY one post. Same goes for any one comment in which my club gets brought in to the equation with anything to do with Messi. You won't find one post which is why you are now back pedaling and using the "tone" cop-out.

     

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