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Discussion in 'Japanese Club Football' started by AmoebaCulture, Aug 24, 2007.
None of those 40 000 went and removed it, so I say fair enough.
Stupid but not that surprising. It's the Japanese solution to a lot of problems: shovel shit under the carpet, whatever it takes to keep the 和 intact. The same problem was on display with TEPCO and the Fukushima reactor and also with postwar revisionism.
That said, I'm pleasantly surprised that the J-League took such extreme measures. I would've expected them to issue some half-assed statement like Urawa did. I don't think extremism in Japan's as bad as in Europe, but this is a good step towards purging the filth.
Yeah, a lot of well-intentioned fans got screwed over by this, but they probably received refunds. This sort of extreme response is a necessary deterrent, though, since I'm sure a lot of other clubs have lax banner inspection/crowd control policies.
And? why should the other take it down? This is not about racism or not, If the 40.000 people were told before that if they didnt help taking the banner down, they would all be punished for it also the club.
I dont think anyone can excuse to punish 40.000 people because of a banner. Thats just plain wrong period!
If there was a house rule saying the club will play without specs one game if you put a racistic banner up its fair enough to give this punishment, but retrospective? No its not Okay.
lol, I can't see that improving in people's heads by any means. You criticised 'Japanese solution to a lot of problems' yet this is just another way of doing that. This time with mass repressions. Action brings reaction. And this isn't how things should be done in my opinion. I'd call that PR movement for 'J League won't have this problem anymore' and J League isn't something that can change Japanese society.
No its not a necesarry deterrent. I am a democratic being, and I dunnot accept and believe in collective punishment. If I was an Urawa fan I would have felt this was an direct attack on my free values as a free person. I will go as far as saying this punishment is an attack of the singlepersons judicial security.
Its simply not ok to punish others simply because you are at a wrong place at a wrong time. This decision is a direct disgrace against Democracy. Even to punish the idiots the put the banner up when they did not know what the punishment they would get, it is close to a absolute dictatorial way of thinking.
Honestly, there is not a single word that I can agree with your post (Actually, reading "why should the other take it down?" gives me vibes) so I'll just say that to me and a few others it looks plain right.
The egoistic, indifferent reasoning behind how the fans should have acted you are proposing is definitely something I cannot agree on. Let alone the last sentence
Yeah, better tell JLeague that if you launch a motorbike from the standing there is a precise punishment on the rules too! Same goes for throwing a coal of paint on the pitch, picking up a fight on the stands, starting a political campaign on the seats
This is completely different from the sort of response I criticized. In many cases, the Japanese response is characterized by lack of recognition of a problem and subsequent inaction. This response clearly acknowledges a problem through decisive reaction.
I also agree that this probably won't change the mentality of right wing loons. But at least it'll prompt the clubs to keep them from entering stadiums/restricting their behavior.
Like I said, it sucks that a lot of innocent fans were screwed over. At the end of the day, however, missing out on a soccer game isn't the end of the world.
Life isn't fair and this is a utilitarian response. A few thousand fans are slightly inconvenienced to protect the J-League's integrity. The J-League isn't a public or political organization bound by the same freedom of speech laws so this is entirely within their rights. I do not want to see it become anything like the Greek or Serbian leagues so this sort of response, while harsh and unfair to many, is the correct response.
Sorry that you feel that way.
If I was a Urawa fan, I would feel like my club betrayed me by allowing a banner that discriminates against me to stay up for an entire match, then announcing that it "might" be perceived as racist. I would not feel like going to the next home match, whether it was behind closed doors or not.
Never knew J-League would be berated for actually doing the right thing, which most of the football fans are calling on other leagues to do all the time. Like @c shima said, I expected J-Leauge to brush the incident under the carpet like most other leagues, but was positively surprised. The stadium ban for one match is directed to the club, since they were not able to keep their spectators under control. Imagine how disturbing it would be if you had been a Korean football fan at the stadium. As for the banner and flag bans, good, you don't need them to enjoy a game, and this would stop other fans from hanging those banners in the future.
How can you present this as some kind of human rights crisis for Urawa fans? J-League football is not an inalienable, fundamental tenet of democracy. The Urawa Red Diamonds Corporation is contractually bound by its relationships with the J-League (and JFA/FIFA by corollary) to uphold certain quality standards with respect to match operations and spectator safety/behavior. The club was found to be derelict in duty, and as a result they will be closed to business for 1 weekend and refund paying customers. If Reds don't like it, they can break off their league association and play exhibitions against random teams like the Harlem Globetrotters. But the reality is that the club reported and acknowledged their failure to maintain a healthy, safe and non-discriminatory stadium environment and accepted the league's sanctions. In addition, the club president will take a pay cut.
These ultras (reported to be "UB Snake" - they took down their website) have been around for 15+ years and are notorious for uncivil behavior including overt racism. If anything the incident begs the question of why they were tolerated for so long.
Naturally otherwise the entire Fair play banners before every match they parade on the field are just a bunch of BS.
Anyway hope Urawa deals with this quickly so we can start talking about what is happening on the pitch and not what is happening on the stands
That Korean fan's pure little heart would break I assume.
Yes, you are completely right, being racially abused is exactly how you describe it. Actually, for that matter anyone who saw that would be disturbed, obviously there are exceptions I can see.
Let's laugh a bit
My two cents- playing in empty SaiSuta will be even more intimidating
Very impressed with the league for doing the right thing.
lol I did laugh a bit
idiotic. so punish the players, the opposing team, 99.99% of good fans, sponsors, people with part time jobs at the stadium, caterers etc...? i'm dumbfounded. surely the perpetrators are the ones who should be solely punished.
I faced discrimination from some Urawa supporters in a way I haven't at numerous other grounds. Japanese Mito supporters also got some jeers for no reason and it was just a practice match. I personally feel it's endemic.
If this was punishment for one incident it would be harsh I think... But hopefully the punishment can make the general atmosphere better for all events in the future.
The problem generally is free speechis a democratic right, those idiots putting this banner up are in right to have a free speech. Although in most countries it is illegal to express what could be understood as racism, this action should be handled accordingly to the rules, not because of a reaction that someone has decided retrospective, and again such punishment should be balanced according to whats normal to rest of society and normal laws.
Naopon said that this is not a humanrights crisis? Its trully not on governmental level, but it is definetely a question of judicial security for the free man, shouldnt the rest of the society be mirroring our principal political rights? For me its important that democracy is not only about my right to vote but also about living in a society that respects humanrights. The size of the punishment given to the club and all the supporters, are unfair. The whole situation gives me a taste of Dictatorship in my mouth. Its a question of basic values towards the individual person.
That said I offcourse doesnt like that banner, however I hate the decision more and the decision will not change society at all in the positive sense only in the negative.
It doesn't have anything to do with free speech or speech rights, because the government isn't involved. A private entity like the J League gets to set its own speech rules, broadly speaking. That's true in the USA, too. The league and the team get to punish racist speech, and they're right to do so.
Fair enough and true, but it doesnt make it more right. Its like being punished because you pass a illegal demonstration. You see the problem? J-League can do whatever they want, but it doesnt change the fact the it doesnt fit with the rest of the reality.
You have to consider the scale of the debate. Ultimately playing 1 match behind closed doors means that the fans merely have to collect refunds and change their weekend plans for one weekend. More an inconvenience than some kind of assault on individual freedom.
Again, unruliness and racism has been an issue with a subset of Urawa supporters in the curve for a long time. Of course they are only a small number, but if the club allowed that small party's agenda to influence club policy and draw special treatment in enforcing spectator conduct standards (as Reds acknowledged)...they're on the hook for league sanctions. Abiding by a commitment to maintain a healthy stadium atmosphere is part of the agreement between the J-League and every member club (a freely entered arrangement between private parties), as is the escalation of potential violations to the league committee. Urawa doesn't seem to be complaining about the disciplinary measures, but if they have any grievances they should sue the offenders for part of the estimated ~300 million yen in economic losses (which they have said they won't do, in any case).