The ultimate first world problem: who do you start….. adams or johnny and why

A team must match strategy and tactics to their players to produce better results. Simply passing the ball around more does not produce better results (see: Klinsmann trading away our fast attack game for a slower buildup (with no structure for effective progression)).

 

So you agree, our current crop of players with better skills and stacked in MF and FB and comparatively weaker in keeper and CB, should definitely be playing this more evolved and frankly better soccer ball, than garbage bunker ball.

I’d also categorize get nasty tactics of playing 8 DMs like Klinsmann bunker ball.

Glad we could come to a clear resolution. Good thing we have a great manager with a proven track record playing modern ball.

 

How we should play does not depend on the differences in the specific qualities of our current players vs our past players. How we should play should depend on the relative level of our players vs their opponents, their strategies, and our players particular strengths and weaknesses.

We’re a middle of the pack team in the expanded WC. I don’t even think that we are a Bournemouth or a Betis relative to the Barcelona, Madrid, Liverpool, and Bayern’s of the international game. We’re more like Everton or Girona. Like in the CL League phase we are Brest, Girona, or Feyenoord. Those teams had 42-51% of the ball. Girona had that high number and did the worst.

Bunkering means playing 10-11 men behind the ball in your own half on defense (what we now call a low block that basically every team uses at times), conceding possession when challenged or even unprompted, and attacking with few players or very selectively.

 

I don’t need a smattering of random, barely-relevant statistics to know that Rimando is superior to Turner. I have watched the entire careers of both, and it’s not even a comparison. Rimando was a USMNT support player because other players who were superior to Turner were better than him.

 

Johnson was on Antonee’s level. Dest is obviously far superior of an offensive player than either. Antonee and Johnson both have experienced their own defensive lapses.

 

How much did Fabian Johnson and Steve Cherundolo even overlap for the USMNT, maybe like a year and a half? We're not talking about the current pool vs the entire history of the USMNT, it's about comparing the current team to previous teams at various points in time. So yeah we could compare the 2010 Dolo team OR the 2014 Fab team to the current Dest team....

 

Okay so YOU trust yourself having watched both Turner and Rimando over the statistics, but why should anyone who is NOT YOU trust you over the statistics?

 

Well, you responded to me.

 

Rimando had better feet than any keeper in our pool right now. It's not close. Iirc, rimando was also a pk specialist.

p.s. edit: I believe Klinsmann had a big to do about some sub he didn't make and explained later that he was saving the sub to put Rimando in for pk's after extra time.

 

Rimando v. Czech republic - 2nd half starts around 2:30 of clip. That's Petr Czec (Chelsea and Arsenal) in goal for the Czechs. I think he came over to say hello to Rimando after the game. Maybe somebody could ask Rimando what he said.

 

1. Yes and "good feet" is one part of goalkeeping
2. As opposed to Turner who is bad at PKs?

 

Why doesn’t this apply to Yesteryear FC?

These legends everyone romanticizes and imbues with mythical heart and grit, were also
pathetic underperforming losers in ‘06 and ‘18.

Bad low block soccer ball isn’t a magical panacea, we lost a lot and had shit results counterattacking as well.

 

MNT vs. Turkey: Highlights - June 1, 2014
hi lites of '14 send off game v. Turkey. Dempsey looks like he cares. They all look like they care. Good crowd support. Obviously Jones should play instead of brad davis with rasta in the hole but this was a tune up game and I think Klinsi wanted to see how Brad would measure up against Donovan, smh. (edit: rasta comes on beginning of 2nd half).

------------------dempsey/pulisic-------altidore/sargent

----------------------------------bradley/mcKennie

------------davis/wtf klinsi?------------------------zusi/musah

----------------------------------------jones/adams

----chandler/Arob--besler/McKz--cameron/CRich--fab/dest

--------------------------------gk: howard/turner

The game is up in 2 halves on utube
USMNT Turkey 2014 Friendly 1 of 2 Full Time USA

2nd half: first 2/3 minutes are a good discussion with Klinsi, Twellman, Darke (miss that guy).
USMNT Turkey 2014 Friendly 2 of 2 Full Time USA

 

As we were in the Copa and are today. Our results are largely the same because our players haven’t improved enough to change it. Changing strategy only improves results if those changes match the strengths and weaknesses of your players relative to the opponents. I think a lot of people would argue that our past “bad” strategic regime allowed us to better maximize the talent we had than our current move to “better” soccer. The truth is that we are in an awkward spot where we can’t afford to rely on one strategy to maximize our results and our players probably aren’t tactically/mentally advanced enough to master multiple strategies.

All this leads me to believe that your primary concern is aesthetics.

 

We are in the position of trying to change how we play with slightly better talent (and we should) but we are taking our lumps as we transition and need even better players to move up (duh). I think in the long term it will help learning how to play more heads up to good teams but there will be some bad losses and occasional hiccups against good, mostly defensive teams (basically teams like we used to be).

 

My criticism of Bradley was that we already had the talent to play it out of the back, not through high pressure but often enough, and he just chose to stick with direct buildups. First game Klinsmann comes in we face Mexico and we play it out of the back. I criticized Klinsmann because just playing out of the back was the extent of his reforms. Buildup and progression are the phases where coaching can have the biggest impact and he was not capable of installing a positional structure and system to improve our game.

Berhalter and Poch do this. However, it can’t fully solve the final third. A competent low block (aka a bunker) is difficult to beat. Spacing, rotations, and overloads put a team in the best position to defeat a low block but the players need to operate, at the correct tempo, and execute well. I do not think that we have the players to do this against teams in our tier or higher.

Our model needs to be closer to a successful mid table club or non-traditional international power. Ideally I’d want a team with the flexibility of an early teens Atletico Madrid or the industry and skill of the Cavani/Lavezzi/Hamsik era Napoli team but I’m not sure we have to talent to do either. Maybe the Basque model could work but there are questions about fit and how it matches up against a defend and counter team.

The Atletico model is the most versatile and thus the hardest to copy. We’d need to master pressing, defend and counter, direct play, quick buildup, and a “spread offense”. You need to field a team capable of doing all of that within one game. If Pulisic plays wide in that 442 he’s going to have to do a lot more two way midfield things than he ever has in his career. Wes is versatile but not as consistent, intelligent, and ball secure as their guys. Obviously we don’t have anyone with Costa’s exact package of abilities so we’d have to adapt our play there.

The Napoli model is a midblock 3421 that is compact and extremely defensively intense within their shape and defensive half. It’s mostly defend and counter but also capable of pushing the block forward, working the ball around, providing runners from anywhere, and counterpressing well. The attacking trident frequently rotates on both sides of the ball and is very committed to working back. They still provide a ton of attacking guile along with that workrate and the versatility to be dangerous on the break and against set defenses. The double pivot is rangy and two way. The wingbacks are athletic, providing running and some on ball threat. The CBs are aggressive stepping up and the marking backs are great covering into the corners. In transition they all break hard and opportunistically. Atalanta is an updated evolution of this. Uruguay also did something similar.

We could consider trying to go the Basque route that Andoni Iraola is using at Bournemouth. A very active against the ball team that’s mobile and attacks quickly without being an overly direct/longball team. Play out of a 4231 or 433 or 442 that is still heavily influenced by the concepts of the Dutch/Spanish school of thought. This is actually pretty close to what Poch might be looking to do. However, there are still major questions about how suited we are to this based on our relative weakness at disrupting buildups. Pulisic can fit at AM/SS but the wing depth is an issue. This approach is less vulnerable to being defeated by a defend and counter strategy than the RB style pressing team because it’s still operating off of principles that apply to possession soccer.

In all of these approaches the quality and the approach of the opposition matters. Against a superior, ball dominant team all of them are going to be heavily weighted towards playing against the ball. They are all going to drop into mid and low block shapes. That’s what good soccer looks like for a team of our relative qu

 

Good info and probably wise to not try and pretend to be a top 10 side while still progressing from a sort of defend and bunker of old. Picking club teams in similar position in their league as we are internationally is interesting. If you have time it would be fun if you posted our players in those teams lineups that you think could make it work.

 

And yet, Chris Richards just cemented about one of the better club seasons from an American CB of his age, at least that I can remember. Guys like Ream and Dooley had better years, but they were like 30 when they did. Boca became a starter at Fulham at about the same age, but they didn't win a trophy, and you can argue the PL is stronger today.

re: the keepers, first this really sounds like it was worked backwards, that keeper suddenly became far and away the most important position because it justified the conclusion that the team's not talented.

Generally on Turner and Steffen, they're not Howard and Friedel, and I'd be surprised if they ever were, but they are decent shot stoppers, and if they get their confidence back, that's a solid start. They didn't go to Blackburn and Everton, they made a career management mistake going to Man City and Arsenal and got mind-********ed into trying to be something they're not. Now they have to get back to where they once belonged.

Their stock, and maybe the team's too, has found bottom, and now might be about the time the smart money starts buying a few shares.

 

If Chris Richards stays healthy (which has been part of the problem the last 4 years), and continues developing, he can become the best American-born center back of my lifetime. He's only 25.

Its interesting to note that not even Dallas fans saw this coming. Hell, the club chose not to provide him with a spot in their academy after his first tryout out of Alabama. So he went to the Houston division of the Dallas Texans for a season. Tried out again a year later and was accepted into the academy. Even then he was very gangly and unpolished.

[It wasn't just FCD: Heck, while he was playing for Hoover United in Birmingham, Alabama.............West Ham coaches came thru. They offered a group of Hoover kids a chance to go train in England at West Ham, and Richards wasn't one of them. He also wasn't selected for ODP after tryouts. That's regional ODP tryouts! Not picked to USYNTs until the U19/20 level.]

What Bayern Munich said while he was on loan with them as an 18 year old (as part of FCD's collaboration)................was that he was like having an elite basketball player on the soccer field. That he provided a different type of talent that they typically don't have as much access to. Chris "filled out" physically with them and its been an upward trajectory since.

 

True. Just read a story about that
Erling Haaland’s emasculation sums up all that is wrong with Man City

My pet peeve is actually teams that want to play like ManCity (Vanney in MLS, e.g.) and don't get that the ball can be moved around more quickly in the back to help with gaining a slight advantage. No doubt that is because high lines are thought to be like standing at the edge of a precipice in terms of fearing the opponent's counter so the guys in the back circulating the ball treat it like a newborn baby.

I think the crack you want to work through is the area 14 as long as there is a good counter press in the works. You don't see anybody attacking that area like prime Messi anymore. It's why I like guys like Luna and Brenden. KDB could do it earlier in his career along with sending balls in from the wings to Haaland, like Kev Paredes could if he were not injured for an entire year.

 

I hope so. I don't watch a ton of Richards, but I feel like he might have been his best at Hoffenheim. Of course, maybe that's just EPL v Bundesliga.

He obviously has all the tools, but he's been somewhat shaky for the US at times. Hopefully he just needs more experience.

No, in a very generic sense, nothing to do specifically with the USMNT, the difference between keepers in terms of goals tends to be higher than the difference between other positions. The worst (starting) keeper in a league and the best can often be 20 goals apart; you don't really see that difference in other positions.

They can erase a lot of mistakes or completely invalidate a defense. While I am sure there are arguments for strikers and controlling, attacking mids, but I don't think there's any doubt that a keeper is more important than a wide player.

Turner was a very good shot stopper at one point, and I'm tentatively hopeful he can get that back if he can start playing consistently. Steffen was never actually consistently great over any decent period of time. He's had hot streaks, but never a whole season. He got off to a hot start this season, so maybe it's real improvement? But I'm wait and see. I do think his cratering was injury related more than anything.

 

Klinsmann looked at his team and saw plainly that he had

1 cf 9 - Jozy - fast strong finisher
1 second striker/poacher - Dempsey
1 mid who can range, score, assist but doesn't defend much - i.o.w. a 10 in Donovan
2 cmids who could destroy(interrupt) on defense and create on offense with solid Euro experience - Bradley and Jones.
2 Bundesliga babies at outside back in Fab and Chandler.
1 high level keeper who played week in/out for Everton in Prem - Tim Howard

Essentially, it cried "skinny diamond" and that is what he played after going to the parts store and finding some usable material in rasta, besler, beasley (chandler washed out).

I think the picture Poch comes to is

bunch of 9's, all with problems of some sort
1 good finisher in Pulisic who is as good if not better than Dempsey
Various 10 candidates none of whom scream "the second coming of Donovan".
2 Serie A cmids who aren't played there at their respective clubs because they just dont have it
1 top class 6 in Adams who tends to shine with 3 cb's and a covering 8
2 great wb's in Weah and Paredes plus
1 of the best old skool Prem left backs in ARob
1 cb Richards playing at high level who is likely too young and looks to be a 3atb type
0 keepers of any note. Not one keeper starting in Europe at the higher level.

To me it screams 352/3421 but that may be a bridge too far with the players we have and the time left for Poch to get them playing together.

 

Klinsmann had decided 4 or 5 months prior to that match that he was going to play a 4-3-1-2 diamond at WC2014 He first rolled out in the April friendly v Mexico with MB90 in the #10 slot. A tactic that Ancelotti later used with Bellingham at the #10 for Madrid.

Jurgen had the conversation with Arena before MLS started and Bruce rolled out a 4-3-1-2 with LD at #10 to give him reps..

The 4-3-1-2 made perfect sense for the WC2014, we just had no real quality wide attackers at the end of that cycle.

A 3-4-2-1 would certainly work this cycle. I hope Poch takes a hard look at it.

 

… Carlo Ancelotti had extensive experience and mastery over the 4312 well prior to the 2014 WC. You can probably also find me advocating for us to adopt an Ancelotti inspired 4321 late in the 2010 cycle or early in the 2014 cycle on this very website.


Re: the 3421, I want to see what Adams and Johnny look like with Jedi and Dest first. I have concerns about CB depth.

 

He knew the area. He was well-drilled, mentally strong, focused, and had great discipline on top of being a great athlete. The guy was a special player.