The ultimate first world problem: who do you start….. adams or johnny and why

This sounds realistic as two of our best ever -Donovan and Dempsey were both great at creating out of nothing. Reyna and Luna both do that as does Pulisc and Dest. Sometimes McKennie. Be nice if our forwards did more in that aspect.

 

I think club play pretty reliably translates to international play but then again, I actually watch these guys play at their clubs.

 

How does my suggestion about a "larger representation from the MLS" lead to "prioritizing the MLS"? I basically agree w/ your final sentence and I am arguing that some of our Euro based players seem to have lost the bite they were showing for the USMNT when we were spanking Mexico in NL Finals under GB in his first stint.... and I think we could ID a few replacement players from the MLS like Luna that would give everything for a chance to wear the crest. Quinn Sullivan would be a good candidate from a creative/hustle perspective.... At DM, I think Eneli could make a difference.... I would still put Adams and Johnny ahead of him.... but he is pretty aggressive for the position and that could pay dividends against certain opponents.

Canada has been putting together a nice mix of players from the MLS and across the sea.... The majority are super athletic and seem to play up when playing for their country. We seem to be getting less athletic and a significant number of our incumbents from Europe seem like they lack the will to give everything for their country.

 

Adams isn't the force multiplier, he is the force itself. I wouldn't say Cardoso is a force multiplier. He's the work horse type with lots of rating services "events". These types tend to get underrated as their teammates bask in the glory of great results - all made possible by having somebody who actually gets the work done, lol. Guys like Cardoso need time with a team which is the main reason he hasn't looked good for US, apart from physical issues he was trying to deal with simultaneously with finishing a season in Brazil and going straight to LaLiga as a young player.

Bottom line, the only issue I have with Cardoso is lack of experience but that should improve dramatically at his current age (23). He'll be a couple of months shy of 25 when the WC finals roll around.

 

Well, Johnny has only played 21 minutes for the USMNT since Poch became coach.
Hard to be a multiplier of anything if you're not available.

 

Prioritizing is the only way you will get get larger representation from MLS. It wont be based on the merits of individual players.

There are quality 2nd tier league players in MLS and they should certainly be considered. There are also quality 2nd tier league outside of MLS who should also be considered. Eneli and Sullivan should be in the pool. Robinson and Zimmerman are currently playing very well. Ream is not. DeJuan Jones should be an option at either fullback.

The US may just have outgrown the plucky underdog with a chip on their shoulder stage.

 

Reliably is a word, for sure. Incredibly vague, since the extent of that reliability is what's at question.

Tell you what -- you can keep banking on Malik Tillman figuring out how to contribute, all the while most likely alienating players who are outperforming him.

Must win game tomorrow -- are you starting a guy like Tillman starting because of PSV form? We've seen how his club form has translated, and it's not good so far.

I'll try to win games and take guys whose club form does translate.

 

I certainly think there is a bit of that going on.... but the desire to give everything you have on the pitch when wearing the crest should be a default mindset that I think we are lacking. I also agree with gogorath... We may have more guys than ever starting for their club teams in top 5 Europe but most of them are roll-playing types... They look good when paired with the difference-makers on their teams but they rarely take it upon themselves to take a game over.

 

What you are describing is the ability of players to impact the outcomes of games. This is what separates players at this level. The guys who can take the game by the horns and have a say in the outcome are the great ones. Some are passengers, others are drivers. We need our drivers to step up and become consistent. We have some drivers: Pulisic, Antonee, Tyler, Weah, Dest, and (at times) McKennie. It looks like Diego Luna is becoming one of those drivers.

Reyna hasn’t produced for the USMNT in a loooooong time, spanning periods in which he was not injured, the most egregious example of which was the Copa America where he may as well have not been on the field. I would not consider him an impact player. A potential impact player? Maybe in the future. Honestly, it’s embarrassing that people even bring him up in that class given how off-the-map he is for club and country at this point.

I’d rank our potential drivers like this:
1) Luna
2) Johnny Soccer
3) Balogun
4) Tessman
5) Pepi
6) Malik Tillman
7) Reyna (Big IF: playing regularly at his club)

 

We have by far the best pool of players that we have ever had and it is not even close.

It is easy to sit on the couch and question if the players are giving everything they have, I believe they are. Luna is playing with a chip on his shoulder but that is his personality and mentality. Great to see but I don't know how far that takes us against better team.

Back to the OP; Adams is the first name in the pool you build around, he makes every one else better just by being on the pitch.

 

That's a gross exaggeration.

The 2009/2010 era had Howard, Guzan, Cherundolo, Boca, Onyewu, Bradley, Clint, Donovan, Jozy and briefly, Holden and Davies.

We can start with the fact that keeper is the most important position on the field, and this group starts with a massive lead.

Maybe it's the best pool of players, but it's hardly "not even close." Unless you are a badge FC dude and can't figure out that the big difference between much of the current depth and then depth is more about the perception of Americans than actual performance difference.

 

I'd argue against that. It's pretty the second tier European players have been given priority and largely have failed to impress on either side of the ball. Yes, our core, despite being disappointing, are still clearly our creme de la creme, such as it is.

Who's been better in a US shirt -- Walker Zimmerman or CCV or Mark McKenzie? It's Zimmerman, hands down. Now maybe he's not the same guy post injury, but I'm not sure he's had the shot once he's recovered.

Who's been better in a US shirt -- Diego Luna or Malik Tillman? I'd definitely want to try someone like Freeman or anyone at RB over the black hole that is Joe Scally. Hell, Brian White is outscoring Josh Sargent in a US shirt. Are you sure Quinn Sullivan can't outplay Zendejas' constant losing of the ball?

People need to decide if guys needs to earn their time on the USMNT or if they prefer to simply write up badge FC lineups.

 

That's one of the things that changes as the cycle goes on. At first it's a wide net to try and see every player that may contribute when the next WC comes around in four years. The closer it gets the less those speculative players get called in and at the end it should be those who can help the most at a WC right now and not sometime in the future. We're getting very close to the coach having to decide that group and the GC is maybe the last ress rehearsal and then some players on the fringe and fine tuning. Sucks if you should be there but just stay healthy and the coach never gets to see you but shrug.

 

What is Malik’s actual club form? What has he shown that he’s good at or not good at while mostly playing 3rd tier league competition on a team with a significant talent advantage and then better competition (midtable 2nd to top of 1st tier table teams) in European play?

 

I’d take the 2014, 2010, 2002, and 1994 groups over this one.

This group has a TON of pressure on them to write their own legacy in 2026.

 

I would bet that every single manager of those and other past player pools would without question take player for player this current group; 4 deep, 3 deep, 2 deep, and starting XI!

 

Adams has the advantage in the single-pivot role. But even so, Johnny could just start in one of the 8 spots in a 433. In 4231. Johnny and Adams could both start in the two with one of Gio, Luna, McKennie, or Tillman at amid.

 

Which is a drum I've been beating for a long, long while.

But it's still rare to watch him repeatedly unable to trap a ball with PSV, which has been the case with the US in several games.

I'm not quite sure why you are even arguing at this point, so I'm going to let it go. But I don't think it's controversial to say that there's not a rigid and exact 1:1 translation.

 

94? That's crazy talk. It does ask a question which is does being able to practice with lesser players together for a year make a team better than having better players who almost never train together? I'll also add that the game changes all the team so ask yourselves how those teams from the past would fare against today's best teams. How would more athletic players who press work against the midfielders, defenders and keepers of yore? If our players have trouble working it out of the back now would we be reduced to just hooffing it all game long?

 

on field performance of the senior team is disproportionately influenced by a handful of players at 'spinal positions' (CF, CM, CB, GK), on talent level and fit. I'd say our *pool* is definitely above average to best, in that guys like say Brian White or Tristan Blackmon would definitely have gotten more runout in prior eras. There are times when Max Arfsten would have been a lock starter for us at LB and would be generating nontrivial buzz. Brian Gutierrez would have gotten a lot more caps at a younger age. etc.

 

Our talent is better than ever.
That doesn't mean we play as well as a team than previous generations.
Or that we don't have key holes in the squad.

If you don't have a #9 that can reliably score, then you're in trouble. Even against CONCACAF opposition. There are forwards like Altidore that could be relied upon at that level. We don't have that right now. Josh Sargent couldn't score for the USMNT in a Thai brothel. He's the 2nd leading scorer on the 13th best team in the English Championship. Brian McBride he is not.

It doesn't matter if Adams and Johnny are the best #6s in the history of the program if you CAN'T SCORE. They're at a different level than the era of Pablo Mastroeni in 2002. Or Kyle Beckerman in 2014. It doesn't matter. Our midfield so dominated Panama at the Nations League that we all demanded somebody get taken off for a more offensive player. Adams was a monster in that game. Absolute monster. Doesn't mean much if you can't score.

 

I would disagree. What I saw of having him on the field during most of GB's tenure was we sacrificed an AM or Wing who had to always drop much deeper in order to progress the ball when TA had it. We don't have the fluid thinking guys who can recognize this and adjust their relative positioning minute to minute, so we would sputter trying play a 4-1-shuttle-4

Ideally, he'd win balls and then be able to move them forward on his own instead of pulling Wes/Gio/whoever back.

I don't watch his club team. It did look like, in the most recent NT games, he had added some tools to the bag on the attacking side, so I'm hopeful. It's mentioned above he had a game against Panama...

 

There's a real disconnect here.

As we complain about our strikers and our keepers and our centerbacks and our backup fullbacks ... perhaps people should really tally up the "talent" across the entire field and realize the gap between Pulisic and Donovan is much smaller than the gap between Tim Howard and Matt Turner right now.

Part of the disconnect is definitely injuries -- despite some high profile career-enders that we have had, the availability of our current group seems worse than ever.

But the other part is that, as you note, if you can't score, it's an issue. The difference is that, to me, that means the talent isn't nearly as good as the fanbase thinks it is.

As an aside, people continue to mock Jozy for scoring for fun in the Eredivisie but failing at the top level, but of all our strikers ... Balogun is the only one who's really had a strong season at a higher lev -- well, unless you subscribe to the idea that France is a half step down ... which they are.

Clint used to score at the top level, though the EPL wasn't quite the EPL then. Donovan was MVP level in MLS. Right now, we really only have Pulisic reliably putting up goal production at the top 4 level. McKennie does well for what he is, for sure, and Reyna, when healthy, did well on a per minute basis.

But again, does this seem like a huge attacking improvement from rolling out Jozy, Clint, Landon and say, Charlie Davies? It does not to me.

 

We don't really have anyone in the pool right now that can play all those roles at once. Hell, the only person who has proven they can even play the offensive role you mention is a healthy Gio Reyna, which doesn't seem to exist at the moment.

We don't have reliable ball progressors via the pass. Wes can hit a long switch but his accuracy is uncomfortably erratic if he's playing far back. Johnny can be steady by he lacks much in terms of line breaking ability and tends to hold onto the ball. Musah can dribble up but he can't pass. Tessman has some nice line breaking passes but he's a step down from these guys in everything else.

In other words, we really don't have a player to be a fulcrum in the build up like that. Berhalter tried tons of dudes before giving up and moving the build up to the wings; the only guy he actually found was Reyna later in his run, and moving him back does come with downsides.

You say we have to drop too deep with Tyler, but we drop deep with everyone. Very few of our guys are press resistant and the few that aren't can't punish the press. There's a reason that Poch has had the 6s stay home and had the 10s come all the way back to get the ball.

Tyler, on the other hand, because of his defensive range, does allow more players to progress the ball via dribble. He does allow more guys in attack. The single 6 has value in that sense, defensively, and even in Poch's double pivot, there's value in the second 6 having more vertical freedom given our issues.

If we ever get healthier, that may change some. Dest becomes a viable alternative, and the Dest/Weah right side can both progress and break, creating danger and punishing pressure.

I would love, love, love for Johnny to become the passing partner to Adams' defense because Johnny is also very good on defense and fairly ball secure even if he tends to hold onto the ball too long with the US.

But so far, the line breaking work has been few and far between -- I think Tessman has hit more line breaking passes and dribbles than Johnny in like half the time. But then again, neither has played a ton, so maybe he will show us more at the GC.

 

how far down a mean "old school" (96-06) depth chart would you have to go to find a place turner/steffen/johnson would even be considered? i doubt its any higher than 6th at best, after rimando as the most consistent mls-based keeper.

other than turners two peak years and possibly an uninjured steffen in germany do any of them go above reis? hartman?

so gk obviously is the problem in the team.

everyone knows how i feel about the cb position as a whole- weve abandoning any attempt to cover for our recent/current cb pool which means i believe makes them inherently underrated. who would fare better- gooch or demerit in any of our teams over the last 6 or so years? or richards or trusty in a defend/counter setup?

fb is tricky- jedi and dest are inarguably the best pairing weve ever had, right? is anyone going to be so contrary as to deny that? and scally is grossly underrated, period. hes better than all but...maybe 3 fbs i can think of? but thats where its tricky- boca as a fb only works in the way we played and definitively no longer do. we/johnson never settled as a fb. chandler was, frankly, as (i dont know that theres any other way to say this) frustrating as all hell as a handful of our guys now.

so that leaves dolo and then hejduk/beasley. i completely agree that arfsten, fossey, jones, etc are all roughly the same level of "serviceable" as the bornstein, spector, etc.

so considering context- particularly not thinking our fbs should also be crucial offensive players- who would you take over scally other than dolo for absolute sure? for me its boca and johnson and thats it.

i dont think fb depth is an issue in any sense other than injury. i mean, duh, right? but my point is we dont play in a way that allows that to be addressed. i dont think any area of our backline is any "worse" than those that came before, they just dont the security of quality keeping behind them and absolutely no functional help above.

which brings me on topic- our central midfield. when, in the last 6-8 years, have we actually used adams as a lone 6 who primary job is covering the backline? weve all out-pressed (at the expense of any offense whatsoever). weve transitioned to two deeper mids (insert that ron swanson quote about half-assing two horses vs whole assing one). but the bottom line is (structurally) we hang our defense out to dry as a rule while never coming even close to seeing the move to "ball playing cbs".. we dont have the keeping the make that stand up (beyond concacaf as its pretty close to worst and turner at his best), and the we just havent gotten the midfield right over the last 3 (not even including interims) managers.

i think the conversation we need to have is that while i absolutely believe we have a depth of quality in the middle far beyond what weve had in the past (certainly all at the same time)- i dont think theyre as "versitile" and/or definitely not as "well rounded" as is generally believed. to the contrary i think we have a pretty significantly limited and specific group of individual cms.

tyler, imo, is the only absolutely "true", one role guy we have. thats not to say he cant play in a general 6/8/10 setup with the 6 and 8 sitting deeper but we dont have that true 8. johnny doesnt have the defensive chops for that with our backline. its a huge "what if" for me in terms of musah had he ever been developed as a 6 or an 8. people talk about wes being too all over the place- look at musah.

ive advocated for the double pivot/two deep look for a long while now, but that included changing our defensive priorities. as things stand we just end up with guys playing roles they "can" play all the freaking time- and we havent come close to using most of our guys in their best positions/roles because of the system over player philosophy.

so sure, we can play adams and johnny or wes deep as a 6 and an 8. we can use reyna or luna as a 10 above them against teams we are better than/equal two or go while going to wes higher up against "better" teams...but none of that makes our players what we are calling them on the day.

tyler is a 6. i think luna is, for the most part, a 10 who is putting in the work to contribute more than what most expect from that role. im not sure about gio- i think that (in a perfect world) the true 10 is probably his most effective role, i think hes really a strong 10/8 hybrid.

everyone else- everyone else- is a weird 8 with both high highs towards a 6 or 10, but also glaring holes. i would love to see tesserman spraying balls from deep but he doesnt even slow the opposition down enough. i would love to see tillman as the luxury player for us he is with psv (a completely set, functional team framework where he can just find the cracks to squeeze into), but we arent that team.

is tillman letting down the nats, or are the nats letting down tillman? it doesnt really matter until one of them changes pretty dramatically. its not as simple as ered/cl vs mls- we wont know if luna can score/be effective in general at whatever level until he does. how do you argue a guy who isnt a fit in team as constructed vs a guy whos shown nothing beyond relatively low levels?

anyways, im done. all things considered (how we play, who we are paying a shitload of money to to determine that, etc) it really doesnt matter. we arent a versatile team, we are a group of very limited/specific players. we arent squares and circles and triangles that can be slotted into predetermined holes, we need a manager who can fit the varying puzzle pieces into a coherent picture.

and we definitely dont have that.