The ultimate first world problem: who do you start….. adams or johnny and why

Both, Weston up top AM

 

Adams because he's done it for the NT. Jonny hasn't yet.

 

depends on the setup. as a lone 6 covering a back 4 adams, full stop.

any "double pivot"/two deeper lying mids probably cardoso, but as @ebbro says- we havent seen it yet with the nats. the way i mean that is we freaking need to more than he hasnt proven anything.

we need to find 80+ minute runouts for johnny, tillman, luna etc.

 

Adams is the #1 force multiplier in the entire USMNT pool. When he is on he puts out so many fires before they become a big problem that we take it for granted. The offensive side of his game has improved to the point that it is now more than competent. Johnny is just not at that level where he is a force multiplier on either side of the ball.

Replacing Adams with Johnny would be summed up by what Zidane said when Madrid sold Claude Makelele: "Why put another layer of gold paint on the Bentley when you are losing the entire engine?

 

Not a 1st world problem when Panama is our current rival

 

I really can't believe we're still in a space where people think club form is going to translate 1:1. How often must it not for people to acknowledge it?

Furthermore, Johnny is a double pivot guy through and through. He doesn't have Adams' range and since I've rarely seen him create much danger versus Adams' offensively ... I don't know why he would get the nod over Adams.

 

Johnny and Tyler both currently play as the 6s in “double pivots” next to more two-way partners. Both are given some license to roam and push up. Johnny does so more in attack and defense to offense transition. Tyler roams more in offense to defense transitions.

If club form just means the 1-10 rating average of the transitory, non-competition adjusted, most recent handful of performances a player has played, then no, club form does not translate. If it means the established over a long term, absolute level of performance a player has produced, then it basically almost always pans out.

Johnny has 1.5 seasons of above average La Liga DM/deep CM starter level play. Musah doesn’t have that. Arguably Wes doesn’t either (because he has found his success playing in different roles). Johnny has been better at being the pivot in buildup for his team than Tyler. He’s better around the box than Musah. His biggest weakness is recovery pace.

The thing about Johnny is that he fits very neatly into the traditional, most commonly used deep CM roles or even a two-way role that’s not expecting him to be Xavi/Modric/Gerrard. He wins the ball and he keeps it. His passing is not especially expansive or incisive but he keeps the ball and is very strong at playing in combination. He keeps his wits about him around and in the box. He’s a good service target.

For me he is starting unless it’s him vs. Wes for one spot and Wes isn’t off the boil. Johnny is a more natural fit in CM and is better at doing pivot stuff than Wes. With Tyler being more on the “functional” end of the spectrum in that department, there could be a matchup where we need Johnny as the primary outlet ahead of the backline.

I expect to see Tyler and Johnny as Poch’s CM this summer. Tessmann, Morris, Luna, Paxten, and Malik will fill out the rotation and cover the third spot when Pulisic does not play AM. Johnny will pick the ball up off the backline and get further forward to support the attack. Tyler will hold more in attack.

 

Then we're in trouble, because as you note, he's not that kind of guy. He can get the ball and keep it, but if he's the primary ball progressor there, we're not in a great place.

I think if we are playing a subpar team or if Reyna comes back as his full self in the 10 role, we can get away with it. But we've asked Johnny to be the primary outlet before and it's been very rough.

 

Against a top 10 side in the world we play both and Weston.

Against a comparable side Adams, against a weaker side, Johnny.

 

Adams is literally the only guy in the entire DM mix that I would trust to play a single 6. I thought Musah was going to become his backup based on some good fill-in performances (especially against Mexico)... but Musah's minutes and confidence has dropped like a stone. I think some here are underrating Johnny though. He has been remarkably consistent as part of a double pivot since joining Betis. He certainly doesn't have the same quickness to recover like Adams but he uses his size, strength and technique to win a lot of duels and I think his passing progression is better than Adams. I might put them together.... but I do like using the single 6 if you have the horse to do so. Now, I have been beating this drum for a while but right now I think our talent pool demands a 3CB backline. Most of our top tier CBs are playing in 3CB systems. My favorite formation based on our talent pool would be a 3-5-2.... with one hold-up striker paired with another that has the pace to get behind the D... and I would invert the typical double-pivot / CAM triangle and have two 8/10s.

Balogun --------------- Agyemang/Vazquez (Until Pepi comes back)
-------- CP ----------- Luna -----------------------
Jedi ------------------------------- Weah
---------------- Adams -----------------------------
McKenzie --- Robinson ---- Richards
--------------- Freese -------------------------------

 

Agyemang and Vazquez in almost 2000 minutes have as many total goals (5) as Danny Musovsky has in his last five games...

 

I used to think this way (and still do regarding club success not being a perfect predictor of international success but I think we are at a point where the team needs a reboot, regardless of how close we are to the World Cup. I want to see the guys who are playing better at club level but haven’t been consistent starters for the national team (Johnny, Pepi, Tillman, McKenzie off the top of my head) get extended opportunities to show what they can do as starters. I don’t think cardoso and Adams are mutually exclusive though. I’d actually like to see Tillman be given room to roam in front of them.

 

I’d choose Luna over Tillman, but I am in agreement about the reboot. Luna has proven that he can be the right kind of catalyst in a current reboot. The front 4 need some bite, some big balls, and some initiative. We don’t get that bite from anyone else in that area of the field except for Luna. Luna is tenacious and always looking to impact the game. Pepi is injured, and Balogun has been out.

I go with Tyler, Johnny Soccer, and Luna.

Unless I start getting more from Weston, I don’t call him in. Weston is an influential person and if he is not busting ass out there, it’s going to rub off on guys. Everyone, including myself, loves Weston and knows he’s talented. However, the time for standing around and letting the other team take and keep the initiative is over. I would choose Luna over Weston today and until Weston earned it and took the position back (if ever).

Another positional battle I would have would be between Musah and Reyna for minutes backing up Weah. Musah is in a slump and Reyna doesn’t ever play/ isn’t ever fit. If either one of those guys doesn’t take a leap forward, I start auditioning other players. If both of them step up, I look at using Reyna behind Weah and Musah as a sub for Dest and either of Johnny/Tyler.

The most important thing for the USMNT right now is that the culture needs a complete overhaul. The buddy network of Pulisic/Weston/Tyler/Weah/Richards needs to be disrupted. How do you do that? Make them compete for each other for minutes/money where you can. Leave those who don’t perform at home. If the buddy throws a fit about it? Leave them at home too. This needs to be about doing the job well, not hanging out with buddies on the US Soccer dime.

 

This isn't particularly close to me.

This healthy version of Adams that I've been watching the last couple of weeks for Bournemouth, may be the best central midfielder the US has ever produced. Michael Bradley gave the Premier League a go and wasn't this good. Weston McKennie gave the Premier League a go and wasn't this good. The list goes on. Nothing against Kyle Beckerman, who we were starting at WC14, but he's nowhere near Tyler Adams. If folks want to have an argument about Jermaine Jones, we can have that debate (although we didn't "produce" him.)

That guy has EVERYTHING you want in a #6. Everything. If he hadn't had his injury problems, he'd be at a bigger club right now. Heck, this is a guy who played in a Champions League semifinal when he was at Leipzig. Scored in the quarterfinal. When you make a list of USMNTers that played in at least the semifinal of the Champions League, it's a short friggin' list.

If we're talking this system that Pochettino is employing, a healthy Adams is practically a lock starter.

The issue is.......................he's been in-and-out with injuries.

So, its awesome that we're developing other options like Johnny to challenge him.

Good national teams have competition at every position. Unless you've reached God-like status like Messi or Ronaldo, you're going to have competition.

With the way players get injured in 2025, you need to be 3 or 4 deep at every position like France if you expect to seriously compete at the elite level. Depth is what sets those programs apart.

We want somebody to rise up and be so good, that Christian Pulisic's place is at risk. That Antonee Robinson's place is at risk. That Weston McKennie's place is at risk. That if Yunus Musah has a bad stretch, we don't call him up. His place is at risk right now. That's the way we want it.

 

One guy at Bournemouth and one at Betis competing for a spot is not a first world problem.

Still, it is good to maybe have at least some option. I’d stick with Adams in a critical match until I see something from Cardoso for the Nats.

 

Cardoso and Adams aren't mutually exclusive, but I really don't understand why we'd try to force guys with 5+ opportunities to impress over guys who are playing well at club but haven't had the same chances.

Tillman: 0g, 0a in 615m
Luna: 0g, 2a in 237m

I'm not writing off Tillman. That's not a great sample, even admitting he's played poorly in most of those matches. But Luna has done more in less time. Club play gets you a call up. National Team play gets you PT. Are we supposed to send a better performer home simply because, what, Europe?

People keep saying this team has gotten complacent. Well, what feeds that? People are riding Brenden Aaronson for putting up numbers at Leeds that Tillman would kill to have with the national team. That's nearly seven matches of time. I see the skills, but at what point do you HAVE to cut bait because there's someone else who is delivering?

 

Tillman locked in starter for the best team in the Eredivisie, played excellent yesterday against Feyenoord, tied with Pulisic for most Champions League goal contributions with 5. Not just in Europe but performing as well. Gio is the player more at risk of losing his spot to Luna than Tillman.

 

I wasn't talking about Gio. But my point is who gives a rat's ass about Tillman's club play at this point? He's been this good for club for a while, and he's failed to perform for the US.

We know that this level of performance at PSV for Tillman does not even mean an average performance for the US. I've got several hypotheses why, but the reason is largely irrelevant at this point: seven games worth of minutes and multiple coaches later, we cannot use his club play as an indicator that he will play well for the US.

There's this assumption that people seem to have that club play reliably translates, and then, when it doesn't, you look for any reason that it didn't except that your base assumption is not nearly reliable as you think.

I'm not saying we ignore club play. Or that Tillman never gets another chance.

But I don't want to see Tillman start in front of Adams and Cardoso over Luna starting up front because Luna has earned more time and Tillman simply hasn't. And I'm not even a super big Luna fan. But the dude was one of the few people who delivered in Nations League.

People constantly talk about earning your spot and complacency, but as long as you play in Europe, that doesn't apply. Free minutes! All your failures blamed on the coach!

Gee, I wonder why these guys lack urgency.

 

Luna would be starting at CAM for me right now for sure... I am looking for a larger MLS representation in our top squad and Luna is leading that list. Just too many of our YAs in top 5 Europe seem like they are playing with house money and we need players w/ bite and that are hungry to prove themselves. I would still call up Tillman but IMO, Luna is ahead of him... not so much about the actual scoring stats (or lack thereof in Tillman's case)... but because when Luna put on the crest he was hustling all over the pitch and making creative plays/runs... like he had a chip on his shoulder. Tillman may be extremely gifted but he just seems to play slower and/or w/o passion when wearing the RW+B. Lastly... I may be in the minority... but I think I would still call in Gio despite his serious lack of playing time at BVB based on his past success for the USMNT. I could see him subbing in for CP or Luna in the inverted 8/10 double pivot 3-5-2 I posted above.

 

I'm not sure Poch, who still has only been in the job officially for like 7 months, is worried about performance for the USMNT prior to his appointment. And he actually hasn't worked with Johnny and Tillman all that much.

I don't think we have a good sense of how these players are viewed in the pecking order. Or Dest or Balogun or a bunch of guys that Poch has either never worked with or barely worked with.

Johnny has played a grand total of 21 minutes under Pochettino. Never started a match. Johnny's play in La Liga will get him more callups. He'll get opportunities. How does Poch view him vis-a-vi Adams? Who knows? They've never been in the same camp under Pochettino together.

 

Agree on the hustle, but I also think there's an element here of why certain players do translate better.

More active players translate better to the US team for a couple of reasons, I think. My hypothesis goes like this:

One, guys like Johnny and Tillman are skilled, but often play in very skilled teams where they have to do less. Ball progression and playmaking are more distributed amongst all players. The whole team is skilled, so there's lots of outlets and little concern about gameplanning around big weaknesses. If you can't create or progress the ball ... get it to someone else and they very well might.

Whereas when you come to international play ... there's absolutely less team play and integration for pretty much any team. Less practice means less time to get those passing sequences and timing down.

But toss in that the US is never really putting out a completely skilled team without some major weaknesses. That if a guy like Tillman is the CAM or Johnny is in the double pivot, they are the primary person we want to playmake or progress, respectively. Passing it backwards is not passing it to someone else who has an equal chance to do something -- especially in Johnny's case, it's a recipe for disaster. Being a capable cog in a well-oiled machine doesn't work as well when you aren't in a well-oiled machine.

The reality is that Luna is simply more likely to create some magic on his own rather than wait for the team to put him in a great situation and then convert.

My opinion on Reyna is likely 100% health based at this time.

 

I don't disagree with the principle of bringing in some hungrier guys to either push the incumbents up or push them out. You do have to have a credible threat, though, you have to have players who can make something happen in their absence.

At the midfield positions, we might. Morris, Busio, Tessmann, Berhalter, McGlynn, Q. Sullivan, etc, these guys aren't as talented as the incumbents, but they're credible players who might be able to do something for us depending on the situation/opponent. At wing I'm not so sure it's there.

 

To me, Tessmann and Luna have already shown that they are game for the competition. Luna has already shown that he deserves a shot to earn the starting minutes. Nothing has been given to him and he has performed in every opportunity he has been given. That kind of player is rare. He may be on the verge of becoming a special player.

By now, Pochettino likely understands that the team lacks guys with some bite. In the past we have deployed guys lacking some technical ability who could deliver a physical message. We have only had one Jermaine Jones who is that complete package, but we have deployed some successful players like Mastroeni, Beckerman, Frankie Hejduk, Ricardo Clark, etc, who could help establish a baseline level of commitment and who contributed to excellent teams. Ricardo Clark for instance had a very good first half against Brazil in the 2009 Confederations Cup Final.

One thing I hope that Pochettino does is to figure out how to get Antonee Robinson, who is a physical specimen, to pass off the advancing fullback role to Dest and then to essentially join Tyler Adams as a defensive specialist. Robinson contributes on offense through sheer will, and we have needed it at times, but we may need him more now to show leadership in establishing physicality on the field.

 

At least you are honest but neither Johnny or Adams play in MLS.

Arena and Berhalter tried the lets try to win by prioritizing MLS players approach. It is foolish at the highest levels. How about we just select the best players for the NT regardless of where they play?