The Transgender Discussion [Strictly Moderated]

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by usscouse, Apr 16, 2018.

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  1. Timon19

    Timon19 Member+

    Jun 2, 2007
    Akron, OH
  2. soccernutter

    soccernutter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Tottenham Hotspur
    Aug 22, 2001
    Near the mountains.
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    @Sounders78 The post was moved to keep the thread on topic - the other thread is a coronavirus thread. They are going to be more on top of things now as this is not the first multiple page off topic tangent.
     
  3. argentine soccer fan

    Staff Member

    Jan 18, 2001
    San Francisco Bay Area
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    it was not moved because people who are targeted respond. It was moved because it is an important topic, and it has value to discuss it so people can learn about it, and it is getting some very thoughtful responses, and it merits its own thread.

    It has nothing to do with the pandemic we are currently facing, which is the subject matter of the other thread.
     
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  4. soccernutter

    soccernutter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Tottenham Hotspur
    Aug 22, 2001
    Near the mountains.
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Intellectual curiosity also goes a long way, you now. I mean, there is an argument being made quite strongly, so that should raise some questions in yourself to investigate.

    Actually, your comment specifically about transgender males and cisgender males being the same was, to be charitable, ignorant. But your overall argument does fall in category of bigotry.
     
  5. Timon19

    Timon19 Member+

    Jun 2, 2007
    Akron, OH
    Hmm...
     
  6. Auriaprottu

    Auriaprottu Member+

    Atlanta Damn United
    Apr 1, 2002
    The back of the bus
    Club:
    Atlanta
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    I can imagine they'd be okay with it if they're not winning. But what about the prelim heats and the cis females who lost to them while compiling numbers that would have maybe put them in the finals had they run in another heat? An argument could be made that those females were done wrong. Look at your own link. Mitchell wins the title if Miller and Yearwood aren't there. Of course she feels hard done by. My guess is Soule ran against either Miller or Yearwood in a prelim and didn't make the final. Her prelim 7.37 puts her 6th among the finalists, FWIW.

    Anyhow, it's almost like I posted something about whether or not someone raises a stink makes a difference to me.
    Well, not almost. I didn't do that in any way, shape or form.

    It didn't matter whether the defeated girls would complain because trans or because Black or because the sun rises in the East or not at all when Smurfquake brought it up, and it doesn't matter now. You're not telling me anything I didn't already know about some White folks. I expressed concern about perhaps the one physical advantage we can negate not being negated anymore. That is all. How, when or why it was contested is just not a relevant part of this discussion. And it wouldn't be relevant if the competitors had accepted the results without complaint.

    Now, how the ******** I became a bigot for not thinking trans women should compete athletically with cis women is beyond me. I'm beyond pissed at this coming from two people who usually make better posts than those.

    https://trackandfieldnews.com/tfn-lists/high-school-all-time-top-10s-boys/

    I'm interested in where you all are going to stand the first time the trans female in question can break FloJo's 10.49 WR in the 100 meters, or make a save in goal that few female pros would get to (GK is the weakest link in watching woso, IMO- there isn't as much difference in quality after that). It's apparently okay when the trans woman in question isn't that much better than the cis women, but what happens when she's a half-second ahead of the rest?


    The bolded suggests that you haven't delved deeply enough... 1% wouldn't get any rule yanked out of the book. And Yearwood was in 10th grade, still maturing. Apparently Miller comes out of nowhere in 11th grade and wins it all.

    Let's turn this a bit. It's clear that the trans females discussed here wouldn't win a boys' title with those times. In some larger or more athletic schools, they wouldn't earn a spot in a sprint. I don't know about you, but I went to school with a LOT of very fast girls. None of them were as fast as the fastest boys I went to school with. It may be taboo here to suggest that at some point in the future of scholastic competition, someone is going to take cynical advantage of this allowance. It may be unthinkable to you (or, for that matter, me) that anyone would deliberately subject themselves to all manner of insults and danger by competing as a female just to win stuff, but the sheer numbers of people in this country suggest that it'll eventually happen. Is there some testing system that determines how closely the given athlete's physiology (perhaps the wrong term) mimics that of a male of female? If not, we're taking all these people at their word, which we probably should if we're going to allow trans athletes to compete against cis women.

    What's so interesting about this is that nobody is telling me I'm wrong for suggesting an advantage. They're providing scientific examples of why the given trans female might not have an advantage. No one, NO ONE can brought forth anything suggesting that there is no advantage, because they don't know who's going to transition or change their gender identity going forward. And I'm being called a bigot for the crime of saying they ought not be competing.

     
  7. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    She retired from tennis before Serena Williams was born.

    She was a big deal at the time. I think she only got to number 20 because she was banned from some tournaments.

    I wasn't trying to be controversial. I just posted an example.
     
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  8. Auriaprottu

    Auriaprottu Member+

    Atlanta Damn United
    Apr 1, 2002
    The back of the bus
    Club:
    Atlanta
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    He said a similar thing about a song in The Lion King, because it romanticized the circle of life, which can ********ing be completed by anyone with functioning reproductive organs, regardless of who they actually love. Not because the film bashed anything related to being gay or trans (it did not), but because gay/trans wasn't discussed at all.

    Montgomery Clift was a star long before I ever saw a Black man other than Sidney Poitier play a financially independent, principled, intellectual, serious LEADING (not co) role, and there weren't all that many Black guys in those roles during Rock Hudson's heyday, either. My folks countered that by exposing me to all sorts of literature that portrayed the full spectrum of Black folks. Now, I'm willing to admit that he probably didn't have access to (m)any films that portrayed gays just living like everybody else, but he sure as ******** had tons of White people to watch doing that. I've watched the few episodes of Big Valley that Lou Rawls played in along with the rest. In addition to the stuff my folks got me watching, I grew up on The Waltons and The Brady Bunch and the Partridge Family and decent but still all-White stuff like The Flintstones and Jetsons and more than a few WB cartoons that were as full of ugly, racist Black caricatures as Nutter and Quake seem to be of themselves. I'd rather have been left the ******** out of half the shit I saw growing up that DID feature Black folks. I don't need any damn comedy.

    I don't care if Ernie Ford had to lift sixteen tons (of what, I don't know. Coal?). Someone who looks like me lifted sixteen for half the ********ing pay, or they lifted twenty.
     
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  9. The Devil's Architect

    Feb 10, 2000
    The American Steppe
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Boy, you want to see a fight on Twitter, just watch when some gay / bi / trans settler calls themselves "Two Spirit". Not only do the 2S Natives start cutting throats, but everyone and their Aunties join in - ********ing Little Bighorn.

    It's like Settlers can't help themselves, they just have to swipe something native for cred in their little community, whether it's 2S, Native GGGGGMa, head dresses, sports monikers
     
  10. Sounders78

    Sounders78 Member+

    Apr 20, 2009
    Olympia
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    #210 Sounders78, Apr 1, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2020
    I’ve reflected on this overnight and will make one additional comment. I do not want to get sucked back into this website because of all the bigotry and prejudice I have dealt with here. It’s toxic. I made the mistake of wanting to find some familiar voices during the coronavirus lockdowns. Almost immediately I experienced the reasons I stopped participating in these threads.



    Ok, you’ve been stereotyped in very denigrating ways because of your biology, you’ve been maltreated because of your identity, you’ve had assumptions made about you because of your identity, you’ve had your integrity questions because of your identity, you’ve been insulted because of your identity.


    As a gay man, I have as well –quite often and by otherwise “respectable” people. I’ve had death threats from people I work with, had HR refuse to investigate cases of workplace abuse, “misplace” the evidence I submitted, and in return made demonstrably false accusations against me (and yes, the HR was an evangelical Christian). If you think only black people deal with such crap on a regular basis, then you are misguided.



    Yes, we have. Maybe not because we are white but because we are gay.



    Let me get this right, you are using closeted gays, transvestites, etc. who persecute gay people as a way of protecting themselves from harm as supposed evidence that we don’t experience abuse, denigration and stereotypes?


    Furthermore, your comment is a blatant lie. There are definitely black folks with the same kind of power or star power as those closeted people you mentioned. There are black senators, black representatives, black attorney generals, black presidents of the USA, black heads of US governmental agencies, popular black cultural figures (hello, Oprah – if you think Milo Y. is more popular and has more influence than Oprah, we are clearly living in different worlds).


    The underlying theme in your comments here is because the situation for gays is not entirely identical to the situation for blacks, the wrongs we experience don’t count, or are somehow “less than” what you experience. This is a bigoted attitude. Yes, our experiences are different, but they are no less insidious, destructive and murderous than what you experience.



    Let me get this right, implying the universal purpose of life is to heterosexually reproduce so that the “circle of life” becomes complete is not an inherently heterosexist view because any gay can act heterosexually. In other words, if only gays would act like heterosexuals then they could fulfill the purpose of life. Until gays behave like heterosexuals, they will violate life’s purpose. It’s a shame you don’t see how bigoted that basic framework is.


    Furthermore, you conveniently ignore how Disney has historically portrayed its villains. Just as black=bad, blond/white=good has been a recurring theme in Disney movies, so too have Disney movies portrayed villains with stereotypical gay characteristics or undertones. The very butch Ursula in The Little Mermaid, the bachelor bad lion in the Lion King (I don’t recall the name), for just two examples. It’s often the single uncle or aunt that is evil. You won’t think anything of it because you don’t understand the below the surface attacks that are made against gays the way you would understand the below the surface attacks that are made against blacks. I have no doubt you will dismiss the below the surface attacks against gays just as whites would dismiss the below the surface attacks against blacks. But that doesn’t make those attacks less real. Happily, Disney finally decided to make a character gay in the recent Beauty and the Beast: Le Fou, whose name means “fool” in French – the fool is gay! Until the fool, we never explicitly existed in Disney movies, but there have long been undertones (think of the stereotypes Hermes in Hercules presented, for example).



    Let me get this right, you’re referencing a closeted gay man who never actually came out (Montgomery Clift) as a positive role model for gays? You’re suggesting because a closeted gay man who was only exposed as gay once he was dying of AIDS (Rock Hudson) could be a Hollywood hunk, gays can be successful? Are you suggesting that because closeted gay men could be successful, gays don’t experience prejudice? The message sent to gays is you can’t be successful if you are gay. The only way you can succeed is if you completely deny who you are, live a closeted life and never find happiness. That you don’t understand the inherent prejudice that comes with the closet, given you have used example after example of closet cases and have almost exclusively avoided using examples of gay men or lesbians who are living honest lives, shows your bias.



    And here we have a significant difference between blacks and gays. Your parents are usually also black and therefore sympathetic to your situation, while our parents are usually not gay and are often openly hostile to our existence. While your parents exposed you to all sorts of literature that helped you find individuals or characters you could identify with and learn from, mine suppressed all examples, openly denigrated them, and forbid me from watching the one single example of a somewhat well-adjusted gay person on tv from my youth (Jodie on Soap).



    You’re right, I had zero. Now let me quote you but turning the tables on you so you can see how insensitive and ultimately bigoted your comment is:


    “Now, I’m willing to admit that he probably didn’t have access to (m)any films that portrayed blacks living like everybody else, but he sure as ******** had tons of heterosexual people to watch doing that.”


    You see what just happened there? The entirety of the prejudice black people experience was wiped by referencing your sexuality. In other words, it’s saying because you are heterosexual, all the prejudice you experience for being black is inconsequential. You had heterosexual role models, so what’s your problem? That you would even make such comments demonstrates why you have been called a bigot here. And the sad thing is, you appear incapable of reflecting seriously on why you are being called that. You simply continue to make more and more comments that are underscored by bigotry.



    And all heterosexual.



    As a gay man I can relate. The few times we did appear in film and television media, it was ugly demeaning stereotypes, caricatures and, more often than not, outright hostile, bigoted and offensive. We were the butt of the jokes – everyone laughed at us, not with us.



    What is truly disappointing in your comments I have addressed here is how completely unaware you are of what we experience. There are overwhelmingly more similarities than differences in the substance of what we experience. Yet, you deliberately diminish our experiences and choose examples that are based directly on prejudice. It’s the equivalent of using “step-and-fetch” stereotypes from Hollywood movies to show how blacks were not treated unfairly. That you don’t understand the inherent disconnect in your using example after example of closeted gay people to show how good gays have it is simply mind-blowing.



    Now, to address your argument about transgender athletes, I invite you to consider the following:


    1. If you don’t want biological males competing against biological females, then use biological sex as the determining factor. We call it mens and womens (or boys and girls) sports. Those are gender terms, not terms related to biological sex. As such, the competitions are constructed around gender. If you don’t want transwomen competing with other women, then the sports should be aligned to males and females. The US Males National Team and the US Females National Team in soccer, for example, instead of the US Men’s National Team and US Women’s National Team.

    2. While doing so would solve one “problem”, it raises another – what about intersex people like Semenya from South Africa? Should they be prohibited from competing in sports because they are not male and not female? What about people with other Disorders of Sex Development, including people who are genetically male but phenotypically female? Now, I’m willing to bet that you don’t give a damn about them because all you seem to care about are heterosexuals. But if we have “Special Olympics” and “Paralympics”, then should we also have the “Interolympics” and other sports competitions for the significant numbers of people who don’t fall into your preferred dichotomy? I believe Samoa has or had a netball competition for people who are third gender.

    3. You see, the problem is the dichotomy used is a false dichotomy. As a result of the false dichotomy, there are a lot of people who don’t fit. Unless we change the dichotomy, we will have issues. Now, personally, I wouldn’t want people like you deciding what should happen to people like me, given you have shown no ability whatsoever to thoughtfully reflect on the lives of people who are different from you.





    And finally, @TheJoeGreene, when I start seeing “kiss cams” regularly showing two straight guys attending a game together, leaving the camera on them until they kiss, with the crowd pressuring them to kiss, or when roughly one out of every ten times they put the camera on same-sex people (notice I didn’t indicate what their sexual orientation is), I will change my opinion. I know you are a Christian but I still have hope that one day you can learn to show some compassion and humility.
     
  11. Sounders78

    Sounders78 Member+

    Apr 20, 2009
    Olympia
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    A transsexual person has had sex reassignment surgery, a transgender person has not. There is a difference.
     
  12. Sounders78

    Sounders78 Member+

    Apr 20, 2009
    Olympia
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    And I would join the native Two Spirit community in denouncing that non-native person using Two Spirit to describe themselves.
     
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  13. The Devil's Architect

    Feb 10, 2000
    The American Steppe
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That would make you a welcome ally, but an outlier
     
  14. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    OK, then these high school sprinters in Connecticut...what are they? For example, my daughter has a friend who is biologically female but identifies as male. Dresses male, has a male name. But as a minor in NC, or maybe just because the parents object, that's all there is to it. He doesn't take hormones, and hasn't had surgery. Is he transgender but not transsexual?

    If these sprinters are males who identify as female but are biologically male and not taking hormones or anything...how is Auria's position not the correct one?
     
  15. The Devil's Architect

    Feb 10, 2000
    The American Steppe
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Sanitation, Maintenance & Accessibility | In general to begin with, mostly because Americans throw shit on the floor and the custodial staff doesn't want to sweep it out in every corner. Combine that with the fact that males piss all over floors no matter what, it's easier to mop / hose out. And pony on to that that with the majority of US buildings still having been constructed prior to the Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990, most restrooms in public buildings lost AT LEAST one fixture per restroom in order to keep from being sued into oblivion, the primary way to achieve compliance with latest ADA standards, is to allow WC turn radius to encroach the foot turn under the partitions while keeping all the required grab bars within reach distances. I wish I could help you more with that, but since the ADA is LAW and not a building code, there's no room for interpretation. And yes, there are ADA auditing companies that make a business out of hiring disabled persons to go in and try out restroom facilities, send notices to the owners / operators and if they don't make remediations, file federal lawsuits. And now that fat bast...rrrr, "people of size" are being slowly and morbidly added as a disabled class, pretty much every stall is going to require larger fixtures and grab bars, not just the ADA stalls, so, even less room. Sorry, the cripples and the fatties are way ahead of you on their lobbying efforts.

    Actually it isn't, but restrooms are high abuse areas and building owners are cheap. For some reason, they still make wood product core partitions which will always degrade faster due to humidity & moisture compared to metal & HDPE

    That's probably still a decade away before it becomes commonplace. My freshman year in college, all the toilet stalls in men's room had doors in all the campus buildings. But in about half the buildings, there was always one or two toilet partitions that had either a hole drilled / punched in it and/or a patch over the hole. Now, I'm told there's a whole genre of porn dedicated to something called glory holes, where by women go to these booths and a penis is inserted through the wall for them to do stuff too, but I don't think that the men's rooms at the U of O is where the genesis of this porn genre came from...

    Anyway - you won't get any argument from the architecture community on making public restrooms all private & gender neutral. Saves us all a ton of time & effort - we'll still have to factor single hole larger private "family" restrooms for people that don't want to change their kid in front of a bunch of people.

    How old was the building? Seriously asking - 1960's?

    This is like a trope of half of the hetero softcore porn & teenage R rated movies of my youth. Not to mention, both the male and female sides of my middle school & high school gym showers were either open with fixtures on the wall or a central gang fixture, so yeah, it's not like this is not a thing...

    Anecdotally, I am working on a renovation to an existing health & wellness and a brand new HWC - essentially a 50+ restricted YMCA. No gang showers on any side, but on the reno project, I had to get into both sides to observe the poor construction that's going to have to be demo'ed & removed / replaced. I went in with staff and they asked all these 50 to 80 year old women to cover up for a minute while I took pictures. As I am finishing up, some grandma comes out of a shower stall with a towel around her waist, but tits exposed, and walks past me. The facility director (female) is mortified and says "Betty, he can see your bosom, cover up", to which Betty replies "He's old enough to have seen plenty of tits before..." and goes on to her locker

    It's been that way pretty much forever. Women / Girls didn't start getting stalled showers until the mid-70's (roughly) Men, probably new buildings in the early 90's

    Well we can't all be muscled Adonis'.

    I am sorry.

    Bring money. Until we started building safe rooms & storm shelters in buildings, toilets & showers were the most expensive real estate in a building, especially a school. And until school districts adopt this as a policy, there's nothing a designer can do because we have to meet the plumbing code requirements for number of fixtures and balance that with the ADA,

    Again, sorry, it's unfair that you had to deal with this threat, but based on my kids experiences in HS - even in Oklahoma - it appears to be less of an issue. There are / were openly gay kids all over their schools, including on sports team and there are far more racial incidents than there are anything else.
     
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  16. JohnR

    JohnR Member+

    Jun 23, 2000
    Chicago, IL
    Per Wiki, I don't know what the hell we are talking about. I think we need to find other words that are more precise than "transgender" -

     
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  17. Auriaprottu

    Auriaprottu Member+

    Atlanta Damn United
    Apr 1, 2002
    The back of the bus
    Club:
    Atlanta
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    I don't think he's gonna come back, and that's unfortunate.

    To the thread readers as a whole: I never had any intent to insult or demean dude, and I will say in my defense that the treatment he got from RK early in this thread was very much insulting, and it was also exactly the sort of thing I mentioned in one of my posts. RK's posts reeked of libertarianism, just plain ********ing reeked of it.

    I commented on what I thought and still think is simply a well-meant mistake in determining eligibility for an athletic competition, nothing more. And it got politicized for reasons I can clearly understand, but don't have anything to do with the competition itself. I don't have an answer for the question of what trans female athletes should do (some trans males are competing in previously cis male competitions, but they clearly don't have an advantage doing that), except petition the state to sanction competitions for them. I don't think a governing body of sport can create a category for every group that might like to have one, but maybe they can do four groups: male, female, trans male and trans female. The problem arises when a group wants to be recognized as they identify, in every aspect of life. Sports doesn't work that way, and it's one of the only, if not the only, institution where such recognition negatively affects others trying to compete on a level field.

    But what is NOT ********ing acceptable is to say, "hey, it's just HS" and treat it like a stepchild because there aren't millions of dollars or a TV deal involved. HS sports is not Little League or Pop Warner. I'm just glad I grew up in a place and time when parents and communities still cared about their kids' and their teachers' and coaches' drive to excel. Anybody dragging that "just a game" or worse, "just a HS game" idea around would deservedly get laughed out of Permian, Hoover, Valdosta, Bishop Moeller, Mater Dei, Poly, St. Anthony's, De Matha, Eastlake Carroll, and probably a bunch more I don't know anything about...
     
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  18. The Devil's Architect

    Feb 10, 2000
    The American Steppe
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    sitruc and Auriaprottu repped this.
  19. Auriaprottu

    Auriaprottu Member+

    Atlanta Damn United
    Apr 1, 2002
    The back of the bus
    Club:
    Atlanta
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    Googled. Wow. Just... wow.
     
  20. JohnR

    JohnR Member+

    Jun 23, 2000
    Chicago, IL
    Yep. None of us know what the bleep we are talking about. That word means just about anything.
     
  21. Auriaprottu

    Auriaprottu Member+

    Atlanta Damn United
    Apr 1, 2002
    The back of the bus
    Club:
    Atlanta
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    No, I was referring to the ICWA controversy.

    I actually know the diff between intersex and transgender. I've known it for a few years now, ever since I first heard of Semenya.
     
  22. JohnR

    JohnR Member+

    Jun 23, 2000
    Chicago, IL
    I guess you didn't read my Wiki citation. Transgender refers to a lot of things. It would help for this discussion if we could settle on one of those things.
     
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  23. Auriaprottu

    Auriaprottu Member+

    Atlanta Damn United
    Apr 1, 2002
    The back of the bus
    Club:
    Atlanta
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    I'm good with, "is biologically one gender but identifies as the other". I don't see anything insulting, but I could be missing something. I know there are genders in the middle, thanks to a link posted here, but I can't imagine that a third or fourth gender will attract enough members to become included in the general conversation.

    I doubt there'll be another slugfest over it anytime soon, tho. I will certainly try to keep my trap shut about sports competitions in the future, unless I know they're absolutely 100% one gender or the other. Most are.
     
  24. Sounders78

    Sounders78 Member+

    Apr 20, 2009
    Olympia
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    #225 Sounders78, Apr 2, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2020
    ******** off. Your bigotry, your refusal to own your bigotry, has consequences. Own it.


    Are you ********ing kidding me? Instead of actually owning your bigoted comments, which I addressed in detail, and instead of apologizing for your bigoted comments, you deflect onto how someone else was worse (in your opinion) than you. I ********ing disagree. Your comments were much worse, but you are too ********ing bigoted to see that. Not only that, but you also deliberately change the problem from your bigotry to libertarianism. The problem is not libertarianism, the problem is YOU. You are bigoted and you are unapologetic about your bigotry.

    Sure you never "intended" to insult or demean, but you did. You insulted, you demeaned. And you didn't apologize for it. If you want to be treated like a decent human being, then ********ing own up to your ********ing bigotry. Not only do you need to repent, you need to make atonement. You have done neither. All you did is point the finger of blame at others, knowing full well that YOU are the one who committed the wrong. YOU ARE THE PROBLEM HERE. YOU need to apologize, repent and atone for your behavior. YOU.
     
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