insipred by the : most intresting XI thread. I was talking with 2 friends and we was wandering if we Made all time best 11 for clubteams with only domestic players would real Madrid, Barcelona, ac-milan, Juventus, man-united still have a claim to come up with the best team ever or would clubs from other nations can come up with a team better then that. Fact is that eventhough these clubs had great domestic players over the years they excelled with foreigners (from the 1950’s onwards) Santos ? River plate ? Ajax ? Celtic ? Benfica ? Honved ? Those teams thrived with domestic players. So question is would a real Madrid or Juventus etc Made up with their best ever domestics be better then for example an Ajax with van der sar, Krol, Rijkaard, neeskens, Cruyff, bergkamp, van Basten. Or man-united with only english vs the best argies that river plate can come up with. Personally i don’t think so. Later this week i Will make Some teams with only domestic players but feel free to bring in Some examples
Real Madrid GK.........Casillas LB......,,,,Camacho CB..........Hierro CB...,,,,,,,Ramos RB.... Chendo Midfield....xabi alonso Midfield...pirri LW......,,.gento RW.....,,.amancio amaro Forward...Rial Striker...Raul
Rial is Argentine (a naturalized "oriundo" yes, but in order to push things to the max) : Butragueno (better choice anyway I think, tbh). And Michel instead of Xabi Alonso (Michel played CM just like right mid... but it's a bit less defensive then perhaps). Santillana, Morientes for the aerial game. Perhaps Salgado is more than a contender for Chendo. If Ramos is putted at RB (even though he's more known as CB at Real, it can resolve the question and then you can have Sanchis alongside Hierro, as it was in reality... must be precised on the drawing that it is Sanchis II ofc then). Yes, I'd go for Casillas Ramos, Hierro, Sanchis II, Camacho Michel, Pirri Amancio, Raul, Butragueno, Gento But technically it would be better to have either Gento (clear LW) or Butragueno (more IL but well, who could dribble and had pace) and Santillana or Morientes as the CF. Pre-50's, there's Regueiro in attack and Quincoces in defense. Let's cite Quesada too, at the back. In the goals, as for Zamora's career, wich is splitted between Espanyol/ Barça and those Real years for the last part of his career I commend the French wiki article : https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ricardo_Zamora To be translated if needed ofc, hoping it works well. And yes, there's Carvajal at RB too... It can be a team with 3 CB's too... there's Zoco at DM/ CB too... a last noticeable MF I think (apart from Molowny and Zarraga... and Del Bosque...) is Velazquez (who famously won a couple of pts at the Ballon d'Or)... Gordillo is more Betis I guess, a bit like I'd associate Helguera with Valencia more (although he is more Real than Tendillo). Let's not forget about Milla (who came from Barça) and Luis Enrique (who left to Barça) and most of all about Guti. About Buyo in the goals... about Juanito in attack.
+ yes Xabi Alonso would be probably better than Michel in terms of balance but... he's a Basque and I find it a bit difficult to include Basque and Catalan players in the team to be frank. Michel is more symbolic of an era too, alongside Butragueno.
Similar thread from ten years ago although the criteria was slightly more strict. https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/your-club-all-time-eleven.964953/ In keeping with that thread's criteria (cannot share player with another club), for my entry of Barcelona I would make a few changes to the starting lineup and overall squad list. In total I would add six 'recent' players, add in a seventh (third goalkeeper) from the 60s/70s, and eliminate two players who, upon reflection, can be claimed by other clubs. As a result, I would expand the squad list from 18 to 23 because, frankly, I'm not sure which other players I would drop to get back down to an 18-player squad. FC Barcelona All-Time XI - Natives ............ Estanislau Basora ------------------ Carles Rexach ............ ....................................... Lionel Messi ....................................... ............ Josep Samitier ------------------ Xavi Hernández ............... ................................... Josep Guardiola ..................................... Sigfrid Gràcia -- Joan Segarra -- Carles Puyol -- Joaquim Rifé ................................... Antoni Ramallets ................................... Subs: Víctor Valdés Salvador Sadurní Migueli Antoni Torres Ferran Olivella Sergio Busquets Gonzalvo III Andrés Iniesta Juan Manuel Asensi Guillermo Amor César Rodríguez Paulino Alcántara Originally I had listed Andoni Zubizarreta as my sub goalkeeper but I realize he can also be claimed by Athletic Bilbao. So I'm replacing him with Víctor Valdés and adding a third goalkeeper in Salvador Sadurní. Luis Enrique can (perhaps) also be claimed by another club (Real Madrid) so he's out, Estanislau Basora moving into the starting eleven from the subs bench.. Also in my starting lineup, Migueli, Gonzalvo III and Paulino Alcántara are relegated to the subs bench and are replaced by newcomers Carles Puyol, Xavi Hernández and Lionel Messi. Jordi Alba is one I seriously considered but, again, I'm not sure who I would drop to make room for him. Perhaps Ferran Olivella (?) One position in the starting lineup that I'm sure will raise eyebrows is my selection of Josep Samitier over Andrés Iniesta. The tandem of Xavi/Iniesta has been proven, yet I prefer Samitier in the lineup even though I'm not prepared to say why.
--Del Piero----Boniperti ------------Baggio -Tardelli--Pirlo--Marchisio Cabrini-Chiellini-Scirea-Zambrotta -----------------Zoff/Buffon
Nice team. I'd pick Migueli as starter and bench one of the SBs, moving Segarra in that place. Also benching Rexach for Alcantara, maybe Messi will be in another role.
Barça -----------Valdès------------ Ferrer---Puyol--Piqué--J. Alba -----------Busquets---------- -----Xavi-----------Iniesta-- Pedro-----César-----Basora- Or Asensi in false #9.... well a scorer was needed. Basora is more known as RW but he could play at LW. Reserves/ other solutions GK : Zamora, Ramallets, M. Reina, Sadurni D : Seguer, F. Calvet, Biosca, Gensana, Olivella, Eladio, Rodri... Segarra, Garay, Gracia, Rifé, A. Torres, F. Gallego, Migueli, Toño, Olmo, J. Alberto, Rojo, Nando, Sergi, Nadal, Abelardo, Oleguer... M : Gonzalvo III, also Gonzalvo II, Vergès, Pereda, Fusté, Tente Sanchez, J. Carlos, Esteban, Calderé, Victor, Eusebio, Roberto, Amor, Milla, Guardiola, Gerard, Gabri, Fabregas M/ F : Samitier, Pina (W), Rexach, Asensi, Carrasco (W), De La Peña (M, #10), Luis Enrique, Oscar Garcia, Roger F : Arocha, Piera (w), Ventolra, Escola, Jo. Valle (w), Mar. Martin, Zaldua, Pichi Alonso Alcantara was born in the Philippines of a Philippine mother and Spanish father. Messi was born in Rosario. In Argentina. David Villa could be a good for the A-team but he spent most of his career years at Valencia. As fir Quini, he is more Gijon. Some noticeable Basque players of the 80s and after : Urruti (gk), Alexanko (D, DM), Begiristain (F/ W), Salinas (F)... Zubizaretta (gk), Goikoetchea (M/ W), Bakero (M). I dod not cite Pavon or Ivan Campo previously regarding Real but here mentionned Oleguer or Rodri (who knew injuries btw). Barça's official site has a couple of other legends pre-1930's. In conclusion, we can see that the attack is suddenly a bit less powerful of course. The DNA of the team is still there though. As with Real or Juve. it just lacks the ultimate star like Di Stéfano or Platini or Messi here. Or Ronaldo. The duo Stoichkov-Romario would already be a plus, obviously.
Fair enough with Messi because of his nationality. But what other club can claim him? Newell's? How old was he when he last played for them? Along the same lines: Pepe Reina, Cesc, de la Peña... Using players that went through the academy but made their name professionally at other clubs makes no sense to me regardless of how convenient it may be. Zamora only played 3-4 seasons with Barca and can be claimed by many clubs. For those reasons he doesn't enter my team. I'll try and do a lineup for 1.FC Köln as well and I can already say that Bernd Schuster will NOT be included in it for those very reasons. Piqué is good. Very good. But there's no way I put him above Migueli (Barca's original 'Tarzan') or "El Gran Capitán" Segarra in the starting lineup. A spot on the bench isn't too unreasonable. Paulino played for both Spain and Catalunya internationally so I see no problem with his inclusion. Busquets over... hell, ANYBODY over Guardiola = smh Oleguer?! Okay, I quit right there. EDIT He'd struggle to make my subs bench.
Yeah Ok, it was just to name players who made their formation at the club and are stamped "Barça". Regarding Migueli the comparision to be made is more with Puyol. As for Oleguer, please take note of the supsension points and the parallel made with Campo or Pavones... although one could rate Pavon higher than Oleguer, ok. Busquets is better than Guardiola ever was at this position. He can defend, first of. Segarra for sure was great during a while but career-wise, he is overrated then. That being, I understand completely that he can be included, same with Guardiola, that I don't include for the same reasons. + I have that impression anyway that all the 2000's most famous Barça players are the improved version of their predecessors... they worked for that it seems. If I have mentioned Zamora it's because he can't be ommited in the mentions section since other keepers with a lesser talent (compared to their peers, at their time) are. Looks like their first legend at this position although there are certainly others before if digging more in their history. It's not Pepe Reina that I have mentionned but his father, if you read well. If you can read. Because you sound excited. Surely you quitted to take a cold shower, good idea.
Be it in the starting lineup or the subs bench, I would still place Migueli ahead of Piqué in the team. After all, if you're comparing Migueli with Puyol I sure as heck would prefer two players of Puyol's caliber. The only way I mention Oleguer as an All-Time Barça is if he's sitting in the stands waving a Catalan independence flag, which he did almost second to no one. (Piqué can challenge him on this, however) My mistake on Pepe Reina. Still, Miguel Reina eventually lost out to the veteran Sadurní and would play more matches with Atlético Madrid than he did with Barca. Thus, he's remains nowhere near my list. I'm just a long time (1979-ish) Barca supporter who appreciates and loves discussing the club's history. I remember when Terry Venables was coaching the club and I have no recollection of this supposed "Barca DNA / philosophy" everyone loves talking about existing before Cruyff arrived in '88. Rest assure that I won't challenge your list for Real Madrid because, frankly, I have no interest in them.
Domestic Barcelona Antoni Ramallets Gerard Piqué ------ Carles Puyol - Joan Segarra ------------------------------------------------------- Sergi/Jordi Alba Josep Guardiola/Sergio Busquets ----------------- Xavi ------------------- Luis Suárez/Andrés Iniesta Josep Samitier/César ---- Estanislao Basora -------------------------------------------------- Emilio Sagi-Barba/Pedro
I won't have 35 players on the bench obviously. The team of the 50's with the Hungarians, it was already a bit the same "philosophy". The DNA chain was broken by Venables ok... funny. Reina had a record of invincibility in Barça's goals that stood until 2011. And since I haven't limited myself to only give my selection, but went for an extended list to possibly pick from (or not, ok...), it's difficult not to include him imo. To each his own but I don't think there's such big margins between the ones who make the cut for the first team* or from a wide list to the bench. + again everybody will understand why I have cited a Fabregas for example (that doesn't mean that he has much chances to make the squad, even zero perhaps... who knows...). Busquets or Guardiola? Migueli or Puyol or Piqué? We see different but saying that it's a no brainer or that one was 1000 times better that he other... no. I'm not a Barça fan or Guardiola, or Migueli or Busquets or Puyol fan indeed so for me there's a debate. Olivella over Piqué, here it's more diffcult for me to understand I admit. But you will tell me they're simply not comparable. "El gran capitan! Tarzan!" ok ok. Ok, wow, you know a lot! You're an authentic Barça supporter, good. Mentioning Barça below your username was already kind of a hint but how could I propose a different 11 in a spirit of challenge then, it's just completely unthinkable now anyway since you support them since '79. Well, it's never been about any challenge, Mr. Barça. * apart from Xavi-Iniesta but no, you have Samitier instead of Iniesta for example. The only problem is that you don't want to say why... would be interesting to know though, especially from a fan of Barça and its history. Who loves to talk about it (with other people I suppose). Everybody knows the narratives about the historical figures you prefered like Migueli or Guardiola ok, but about Samitier (over Iniesta), please tell us now. You said too much or not enough. Share more of your passion!
I suppose I'm still stuck on the other thread, where we only considered players that are "your club's indisputable native idols and none else's." Hence why I never considered Luis Suarez (and included Messi). Good shout on Sagibarba. He deserves a place in my squad. Indeed, it's all opinion. Enjoy the thread, my friend.
I hesitated to mention him because he was born in Argentina, but only circumstantially and lived almost all his life in Spain.
Domestic Real Madrid Íker Casillas Jacinto Quincoces ----- Fernando Hierro -- Sergio Ramos -------------------------------------------------------- José A. Camacho ----- Pirri ---------------- Xabi Alonso - Amancio/Míchel -------------------------------------------------------- Francisco Gento Emilio Butragueño ---------- Raúl -------
AC Milan Rossi Costacurta - Nesta - Baresi - Maldini Pirlo - Albertini Donadoni - Rivera - Prati Inzaghi Hon. Mentions: C. Maldini, Trappatoni, Lodetti, Tassotti, Ancelotti, Massaro, Evani, Simone, Gattuso, Ambrosini, Zambrotta, Bonaventura, Donnarumma *Only includes post-war players with over 100 apps for the club If you include any Italian to don the jersey you can come up with names like Meazza, Boffi, Vierchowod, Baggio, Vieri, Di Canio, Cassano, and Bonucci. Rossi Costacurta - Nesta - Baresi - Maldini Pirlo - Albertini Prati - Rivera - Baggio Meazza
I think within England itself it probably becomes much tighter looking at it this way, compared to when including foreigners (non-English) in the equation. My first thought was Manchester United vs Forest, but I'll try to follow up with another 5 comparisons using this post I made not long ago, to carry on comparing the top half dozen to the next half dozen (I've deleted 13 to 20 so as not to confuse matters, and I'm guessing those clubs would be more arguable and less in contention too for having among the best all-time English XIs probably): So as far as United vs Forest is concerned, I think that although I'd probably put at least 4 'foreign' Forest players in an attempt at their overall XI IMO (I'll suggest 3 Scots and a Norwegian making it - a Scot at left wing surely and I'd probably go with one more of them in central midfield alongside the Norwegian, plus a Scottish central defender too as even if Todd on prime career form would be a better option I guess not based on how he was at Forest even if not factoring length of service into the equation), if I'm reasonable and unbiased then it's hard to conclude that in a joint Forest/United overall XI there would be more than a couple of Forest players in I think...and maybe none in midfield or attack! But I do think that changes when looking solely at English XIs of those clubs. Then they seem quite comparable to me. I'd think Forest seem to hold their own in defence (especially considering the goalkeeper). In midfield the edge is probably with United, even if slotting Edwards into defence rather than putting him in midfield (perhaps with Pallister in defence) and giving him the benefit of the doubt to an extent regarding how good he actually was, but for me not by a huge gulf and it's interesting looking at the wingers that Forest's team almost seems like a 4-2-4 compared to United's being very much a 4-4-2 (I did feel shoe-horning Scholes in at LW was the best option, especially as Sheringham and Andy Cole famously didn't get on well so theoretically that doesn't seem an ideal partnership...plus Sheringham is an option for Forest too which muddies the waters more than with Viv Anderson who I think was past his best at United; but as LW rather than overall players I'd assume Storey-Moore>Scholes is a fair call - again Storey-Moore at United was past his best and/or had injury issues quite soon I think). In attack I'd probably give Forest the edge - Collymore over Cole seems a reasonable call based on prime (and maybe not so clear cut for Cole in terms of longevity/consistency anyway as might be assumed), while I can see that Rooney's name will live longer than Woodcock's for various reasons but I'm not sure he was necessarily a cut above as a player (and I'd be even less sure if comparing to Francis and placing Steve Stone as a winger instead for example). And the overall feeling for me at least is that as teams potentially they'd look decently matched, as opposed to clearly being stacked in United's favour for talent and likely cohesion/potency as an XI. Using traditional 4-4-2 numbering (United players on left, Forest on right as I type - in theory RCM is number 8 and LCM number 6 though!): 1: Alex Stepney/Peter Shilton 2: Gary Neville/Viv Anderson 3: Roger Byrne/Stuart Pearce 4: Rio Ferdinand/Colin Todd 5: Duncan Edwards/Des Walker 6: Bryan Robson/Steve Hodge 7: David Beckham/Trevor Francis 8: Bobby Charlton/Neil Webb 9: Andy Cole/Stan Collymore 10: Wayne Rooney/Tony Woodcock 11: Paul Scholes/Ian Storey-Moore
Liverpool vs Everton with just English players probably does seem a reasonably close call too I think. 1: Ray Clemence/Nigel Martyn 2: Rob Jones or Phil Neal/Gary Stevens 3: Alan Kennedy/Ray Wilson 4: Jamie Carragher/John Stones 5: Emlyn Hughes/Brian Labone or Dave Watson 6: Jamie Redknapp/Alan Ball 7: Steve McManaman/Trevor Steven 8: Steven Gerrard/Peter Reid 9: Michael Owen/Gary Lineker 10: Kevin Keegan/Wayne Rooney 11: John Barnes/Duncan McKenzie I'd go with Liverpool to be honest, but by less than when factoring in foreigners when it would seem much clearer with perhaps at least Van Dijk, Hansen, Dalglish added in and probably more. Everton would then be able to put Sheedy as a proper LW though for example, plus include Southall and Ratcliffe at the defensive end, but I do think they'd be falling behind overall.
Continuing with the head to head comparisons for teams 6 places apart in that list I did. Then I'll think about which club I might go with for the best English league choice, and whether it could likely be Manchester United, or even Liverpool (who have more European Cups). I guess it won't be Arsenal anyway, whereas for best overall XI they'd probably be much more in the mix IMO, considering some of the foreign stars they've had not so long ago. The next 4 teams I had had in the list I made were Derby (their selection might be largely made up from one era), Blackburn (the Premier League winning side would again be significant I guess), West Ham (ditto the 'World Cup winners' generation) and Ipswich (surely a number of significant players of their best XI would be foreign) so I guess the best choice should be from one of the 12 teams I'm thinking about even when taking out foreigners. So attempting a possible comparison for Arsenal vs Aston Villa (I've left out Merson from both in the end, but maybe because it was simpler that way and/or because I'm using 4-4-2 while he could be a good option as an outright AM especially for Villa I think): 1: David Seaman/Nigel Spink 2: Lee Dixon/Gary Charles 3: Eddie Hapgood or Kenny Sansom/Alan Wright 4: Tony Adams/Ugo Ehiogu 5: Sol Campbell/Gareth Southgate 6: Michael Thomas/David Platt 7: David Rocastle/Tony Daley 8: Brian Talbot/Gordon Cowans 9: Ian Wright/Dion Dublin or Peter Withe 10: Tony Woodcock/Gary Shaw 11: Cliff Bastin/Tony Morley Like I said I think Arsenal's overall XI would be up with the best ones that could be made from England, but it's a bit different with just English players I think. Probably vs Villa though, marginal advantages all over the team add up to a fairly sure conclusion in their direction but just not anything like what it'd be with foreign players added in. I've just done a late edit as I knew Platt was going to be in the Villa side (but had forgot and put in Garry Parker, another ex-Forest player of course!). It could be that Platt makes the Arsenal side too but I don't really feel sure about that, and he really had a brief spell there after his prime.
Next for Tottenham vs Leeds: 1: Ray Clemence/Nigel Martyn 2: Steve Perryman/Paul Madeley 3: Gary Mabbutt or Danny Rose/Terry Cooper or Tony Dorigo (probably Cooper, especially as Dorigo was sort of Australian even though he played for England!) 4: Ledley King/Rio Ferdinand 5: Sol Campbell/Jack Charlton 6: Glenn Hoddle/David Batty 7: Chris Waddle/Duncan McKenzie 8: Paul Gascoigne/Tony Currie 9: Gary Lineker/Michael Bridges 10: Jimmy Greaves/Allan Clarke 11: Martin Peters/Rodney Wallace Maybe the formations could be considered a stretch. Moreso the Leeds one which is almost 4-2-4 with players who played for Leeds in the middle of attack given all 4 forward roles I suppose. Even though the majority of their most notable players have been British, quite a few of them weren't English. With Tottenham, if and when it comes to comparing to other major contenders maybe it's worth considering switching to more of a diamond as per what they played at times in the early 80s with Hoddle more to the right, and more of an anchor midfielder in there (albeit that player in that era was the very skilled 'pure footballer' Ardiles..who is obviously not a valid choice here) and with Waddle or Peters at left midfield/left wing. I'd say the midfield and attack puts Tottenham fairly comfortably ahead in this direct comparison though I think. Maybe indeed they will be a major contender for top English league XI made from English players. Not that I'd expect they'd compare to the best from other countries using domestic players (without thinking about that a lot yet).
Chelsea vs Newcastle could be a relatively even comparison, with certainly Chelsea's foreign influence being substantial in the successful Premier League years (though Newcastle did better in the early PL years and with a few foreign players too): 1: Peter Bonetti/John Burridge 2: Chopper Harris/Steve Watson 3: Ashley Cole or Graeme Le Saux/Alan Kennedy 4: Gary Cahill/Darren Peacock 5: John Terry/Steve Howey 6: Ray Wilkins/Rob Lee 7: Alan Hudson/Peter Beardsley (or Scott Sellers on the left with Waddle on the right; both number 7s could be false right wingers shoe-horned in a little though!) 8: Frank Lampard/Paul Gascoigne 9: Peter Osgood/Alan Shearer 10: Jimmy Greaves/Jackie Milburn (who might even be able to play RW, swapping with Beardsley) 11: Joe Cole/Chris Waddle