Garrincha is a MUST in that period. Regardless of his gradual decline after 1962, his level was way too high from 1957-58 to 1962 to be overlooked. José Altafini is another great name for that period, as well as Pepe (also from Santos). Other top names would be Alberto Spencer and Luis Cubilla, who were the main stars of the Peñarol team that dominated the Libertadores Cup in its first 2-3 years. Not only Tostão entered the conversation during the period between 1966 and 1969, when Pelé had a slight drop in level. Gérson and Jairzinho were absolutely THRIVING at Botafogo, as well as Ademir da Guia at Palmeiras. At Cruzeiro, Dirceu Lopes was just as revered as his teammate Tostão. At Peñarol, Pedro Rocha was the big star and was definitely in the discussion for best player in South America. It is impossible not to have Roberto Rivellino not even the Top 5 from 1971 to 1976. He was literally the "heir" to Pelé's number 10 jersey in Brazil back then. Overall, seen as the country's main player during that period.
Here's a list of some great players based on the player's age when they were around 24 to 29 years old which is usually their physical prime ordered by birthday: (1915-1920) Arthur Friedenreich Imre Schlosser Patsy Gallacher Alan Morton Charlie Buchan José Piendibene (1920-1925) Hector Scarone Ricardo Zamora Josep Samitier Julio Libonatti Paulino Alcántara (1925-1930) Gyorgy Orth Jose Leandro Andrade Alex James Manuel Ferreira José Nasazzi Luis Monti Matthias Sindelar Raimundo Orsi Pedro Petrone (1930-1935) Dixie Dean Giuseppe Meazza Giovanni Ferrari Leônidas Bernabé Ferreyra (1935-1940) Gyorgy Sarosi Domingos da Guia Silvio Piola Josef Bican Isidro Lángara (1940-1945) Stanley Matthews Arsenio Erico José Manuel Moreno Obdulio Varela Adolfo Pedernera Ángel Labruna Heleno de Freitas (1945-1950) Valentino Mazzola Zizinho Gunnar Nordahl Tom Finney Nils Liedholm Ademir de Menezes Stan Mortensen (1950-1955) Nilton Santos Juan Alberto Schiaffino József Bozsik Alfredo Di Stéfano Ferenc Puskás László Kubala Didi (1955-1960) John Charles Djalma Santos Sándor Kocsis Garrincha Raymond Kopa Lev Yashin Just Fontaine Josef Masopust (1960-1965) Omar Sívori Uwe Seeler Luis Suárez Bobby Charlton Gordon Banks José Altafini (1965-1970) Pelé Denis Law Jimmy Greaves Eusébio Giacinto Facchetti Bobby Moore Gianni Rivera (1970-1975) George Best Gerd Müller Franz Beckenbauer Rivelino Johan Cruyff Jairzinho
Best players by lustrum: 1900-04 Walker 1905-09 Meredith 1910-14 McMenemy 1915-19 Friedenreich 1920-24 Orth 1925-29 Scarone 1930-34 James 1935-39 Sárosi 1940-44 Moreno 1945-49 Ademir 1950-54 Puskás 1955-59 Di Stéfano 1960-64 Pelé 1965-69 Pelé 1970-74 Cruyff 1975-79 Zico 1980-84 Platini 1985-89 Maradona 1990-94 Baggio 1995-99 Ronaldo 2000-04 Zidane 2005-09 Cristiano 2010-14 Messi 2015-19 Messi 2020-24 Messi 2025-29 ?
Zico hands down in 80/84. You can then put Cruijff again or Rivelino in 75/79 if you consider putting Zico as best in the world for an entire decade as excessive.
Ronaldo should be the one in 2015-2019 not Messi. He achieved the legendary threepeat in Champions League, won the Euro and two ballon d'or (arguably should be three).
Zico was UNQUESTIONABLY superior to Platini from 1980-1984. His prime was precisely in that period – more than in the 5 years prior. And Zizinho would also be widely regarded as superior to Ademir de Menezes in the 1940s. In general, he was THE superstar of Brazilian football from 1942-43 to 1951 (right after Leônidas’ era). And I would also question Pelé from 1966 to 1969. He had a clear drop in level after the 1966 World Cup, when he was injured, making way to players like Eusébio, Best, Charlton, Tostão, Jairzinho, Ademir da Guia, Pedro Rocha, Gérson, Rivera, Riva and Albert as the very best. He came back with full power in 1970, but there was a clear gap between 1966 and 1969 that can be filled with other top players – although it is also unquestionable that Pelé was widely recognized as THE player throughout that whole period and decade.
Zico was 22 in 1975; it is highly likely that he was faster and a better dribbler during those years. A friend who supports Flamengo told me that Zico was a better dribbler in the 70s—that detail is significant to me. Proof of this is that, during the 1978 World Cup, he averaged five dribbles per 90 minutes. As for Platini, he deserves to be included for the 1980–1984 period; he deservedly won two Ballons d'Or and had a "GOAT-level" campaign at the Euro.
Ademir performed better during those years. Zizinho had better years in the 50s, according to Carioca ratings.
Partly true, as it is indeed normal, even Maradona lost high speed dribbling prowess after coming to Italy. But only partly: as Falcao revealed in his book about the the Sarria tragedy, Telé banned dribbling at midfield at WC 82. In any case Zico matured during late seventies to reach his peak in the early eighties as a complete, nearly flawless attacking midfielder. The most complete ever in my opinion (maybe bar Messi): Ronaldinho, Baggio, Zidane, even Platini and Maradona could never claim elite level of mastery in all technical features relevant to an AM to the extent Zico showed (Platini the one that came the closest).
Zico's performance at the 1978 World Cup is widely regarded in Brazil is disappointing. He even lost his position on the team to Jorge Mendonça (a top player himself at that moment) during the competition. It is true that Zico was a rising star in Brazil since 1974 and was already recognized as the best player in South America as early as 1976-77, but there is NO DISPUTE that his ultimate PRIME period was from 1979 to 1983. Those were his GOLDEN years, when he really was THE best player in the world. By the way: I really like your Twitter profile, we have chatted there quite a few times in your posts. Greetings from Brazil.
That is not true. Both of them were past their peaks in the 1950's, they are essentially players from the 1940s. By 1952-53, neither Ademir nor Zizinho were regulars at the Brazil national team anymore. Their final top seasons were in 1951-52. After that, it was pretty much over for both of them (although they carried on playing for a few more years), and the new stars of Brazilian football were the likes of Didi, Julinho Botelho and Baltazar. Zizinho and Ademir were not at the top of the game anymore. By the way, Zizinho started to shine earlier than Ademir, as he was the key figure to Flamengo's historic three consecutive Carioca titles of 1942-43-44. Ademir started to shine for Vasco in 1944-45, about 2-3 years after Zizinho had already had his breakout. NB: of course Ademir was more successful, in terms of titles won, during the 2nd half of the 1940s and early 1950s, but that's because he literally played on the greatest Vasco da Gama side of all time, which became known as "Expresso da Vitória". That team piled up titles and accolades from 1945 to 1953 and is widely regarded as one of the greatest squads in the history of Brazilian football. So it's obvious that Ademir lifted up more trophies than Zizinho in that period, as his team was much better. https://imortaisdofutebol.com/esquadrao-imortal-vasco-1945-1952/
It seems incredible, but Zizinho was the best player in the Paulista championship in 1957. He also had good years in Carioca football prior to that. Ultimately, I feel Ademir was slightly better and more pivotal to the titles won with Vasco and Fluminense. Although, perhaps the best choice is Stanley Matthews.
Both were the top players in football from 1943-44 to 1951-52. I'd give the edge to Zizinho, as he seemed to be the more complete and skillful player (not by chance, he was Pelé's idol). I'd put them both above Matthews in that period, with Zizinho slightly edging Ademir. And Valentino Mazzola would also have to be in that discussion, as well as Jair Rosa Pinto, a bit behind the three of them (although he was the top one in 1951, leading Palmeiras to its most iconic season).
I agree that Zizinho was a better footballer than Ademir. However, I’m not sure if he performed better during that 1945–1949 period. But we can certainly agree that Ademir was influential in the titles won. Here are the ratings from the Carioca championship. Nota média do melhor jogador ofensivo de cada edição do Campeonato Carioca de 1947 a 1958 segundo o Jornal dos Sports:1947: Ademir (7.79)1948: Zizinho (8.41)1949: Ademir (8.25)1950: Zizinho (8.29)1951: Zizinho (8.60)1952: Zizinho (8.47-8.52*)(1/2)— LV (@kjdakda) February 26, 2023
You may have a point, considering Ademir would also top it in 1945 (playing for Vasco) and 1946 (playing for Fluminense). It all depends on the period in question (Zizinho would take it in the 2-3 years prior with Flamengo). Bear in mind that, from 1950 onwards, a hugely important competition arises in Brazil, which is the Rio-São Paulo Tournament. Winning it was the closest you could get to being considered Brazilian champion back then (I talk about it here: https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/every-brazilian-champion-since-1929.2139467/#post-43835399). In 1951, the best Brazilian player of the season was neither Zizinho nor Ademir, but Jair Rosa Pinto, who led Palmeiras to win the Rio-São Paulo Tournament, as well as the Copa Rio, the first intercontinental competition in the history of football. No one tops Jair in 1951.
It is a bit tranchant of course, as any synthetic judgement can't avoid being, but it is quite straightforward for a football "scholar" to convince himself that Zico had it all -dribble, first touch, ball handling, ball carrying, through pass, chip pass, crossing, shooting (both from dead ball and open play), even header and acrobatics- to the highest level of mastery. None of other #10 could claim the same (maybe bar Messi). This does not mean he was the greatest, Maradona for instance was more effective in creating big chances from dribbling and ball carrying, and many thinks that all in all h3 was a superior player. But not even Maradona was all-round as good as Zico (he was behind in shooting and very act of goal scoring in general).
Zico was absolutely complete. No doubt about it. Great dribbler, great passer, the top-scoring midfielder in the history of the sport, one of the 3 greatest free-kick takers of all time. He was an absolute BEAST of a player, all around.
Well, I think you already know my take on Zico: I recognize he was a hugely talented player, but ultimately, as a neutral spectator, I feel a certain frustration—a sense of something left unfinished.
A player's greatness is not merely the sum of his parts. Furthermore, among your four claims, the last two warrant discussion: 1) "the top-scoring midfielder in the history of the sport": Zico was an advanced midfielder so that some label him a forward. Whatever. Let's not focus on words. What is certain is that he played in a more advanced position than 100% midfielders like Zidane and Platini. The comparison is therefore tenuous. And how often did he score against top-tier opposition? In high-stakes matches? 2) "one of the 3 greatest free-kick takers of all time": I suppose so, if you look at the raw numbers. But I come back to the two previous questions: how often did he score against top-tier opposition? In high-stakes matches?
Buddy, the guy won 1 Intercontinental Cup smashing one of the greatest Liverpool sides of all time, 1 Libertadores Cup and FOUR national league titles in the country with the most competitive league in the world, which is Brazil. Being the protagonist in ALL of them. At the 1982 World Cup, he was literally THE best player of the competition up until the point Brazil got knocked out (in a game he gave a brilliant assist to Sócrates' goal). From 1979 to 1983, he was widely recognized as the best player in the world, almost undisputedly. And you think he didn't play against top-tier opposition??
The intercontinental cup is litterally his only notable achievement at the international level. Which is the level that matters the most ultimately. His carreer with the Brazil NT is a complete failure, despite the occasional flashes of brilliance.
To be eligible for the intercontinental, Flamengo had to win Libertadores first. Two achievement that put Zico on the same level as Platini and above Maradona in the international club trophies category. As Mr Foootball correctly pointed out, at Intercontinental 81 Zico and Flamengo schooled the Liverpool side that was dictating law in Europe back then. Considering his affair with the NT, Zico played 71 games with the selecao and lost only 3. His chances to win major tournaments have been compromised by exogenous factors (mostly injuries). At WC 78 he was not 100% fit and Brasil got robbed by Argentina. At CA 79 he could play only 3 games (unfairly red carded, being goaded by the usual argentinian lowlife, and then injuried). To be noted that those 3 were the only CA matches he could play in his entire career. In 82 he was badly hit by the usual argentinan misfits in the match Brasil won 3-1 and as a consequences he could not avoid disappearing from the main action in the second half of the decisive match against Italy, hampered by pain. At WC86 he was still convalescent, and Brasil lost only at the penalty shootout. All in all, in the three WCs Zico "failed at" his "failures" were cumulatively down to 1 goal (that even came from a corner that was mistakenly granted to Italy, the ball had actually been saved).
That is an absolutely ridiculous statement. Over 90% of the football calendar is NATIONAL, not international. You assertion makes as much sense as saying Cruyff, Eusébio or Puskas were failures because they ALSO didn't achieve anything with their national teams. Ridiculous logic.